Twin Seq. Dry sumping for beginners :D

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Turbo-Brown
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Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:55 pm

Trouble with forcing the gas to go through the wadding is that it would dramatically increase back pressure, guess I've essentially made an absorbtion type silencer.

When I made the silencer for Brown, it was exactly the same with no baffling and, combined with the turbos wasn't too loud at all. It's surprising how much energy finds itself in the wadding even without a baffle. Mine fatigued the top off of the silencer within a couple of months, although this taught me not to stitch weld silencers together more than anything else!

With the new system, there should be three distinct volume levels; With gas passing through both turbos, it should be very quiet and discreet indeed, with gas passing just through the large turbo it will be louder, and with the wastegate open, louder still..

Hopefully it'll sound nice whichever way though :D

Do your boxes have a baffle Jazzman?
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Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:17 pm

The magnaflow boxes have 1 input and 2 outputs and look like this through the middle:

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I've not got a picture of the inside of the jetex but its basically a perforated pipe like yours with a very thin layer of fill round the outside, I only got these to bring the db's down to a level where it would pass SVA!:

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Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:32 pm

How loud is your engine then Jazz? :D

Got everything for the primary exhaust tacked together now!

Really chuffed with the way it's come together!

Started out by making a little hanger for the rear this morning:

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Bunged another bend in it to point the last bit of pipe at the left hand tail pipe....ish:

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Decided it might be an idea to make the silencer detachable this time so added a V-band (gotta remember to get another one!) and did the final swan-neck into the silencer:

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Looks like ground clearance should be fairly reasonable with the pipe being probably 1.5" lower than the lowest point on the car:

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And here it all is :D

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JazzMan
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Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:40 pm

That's really looking good :)

In order to pass SVA I blocked 2 of the 4 holes, the sound was measure at 45 degrees from the exhaust tip 40cm back (IIRC) as there are two boxes both are measured and averaged. One was 100.9 and the 98.9 so that came out as 99.9db. The limit is 101db!!

EDIT: at just over 4000RPM, there's calculation based on max power output.

I've left the plugs in but there is a small hole in each, without the plugs it is too anti-social!

You can kind of hear it in these videos:

(2.5)

(2.8 )

I'll have to make a new video now I can go past 4000rpm with the 2.8
Last edited by JazzMan on Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:41 pm

Looks sweet - nice work :P
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Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:08 pm

JazzMan wrote:That's really looking good :)

In order to pass SVA I blocked 2 of the 4 holes, the sound was measure at 45 degrees from the exhaust tip 40cm back (IIRC) as there are two boxes both are measured and averaged. One was 100.9 and the 98.9 so that came out as 99.9db. The limit is 101db!!

EDIT: at just over 4000RPM, there's calculation based on max power output.

I've left the plugs in but there is a small hole in each, without the plugs it is too anti-social!

You can kind of hear it in these videos:

(2.5)

(2.8 )

I'll have to make a new video now I can go past 4000rpm with the 2.8
Your car is fantastic mate! Love it!
How much does it way out of curiosity?
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JazzMan
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Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:12 pm

oakey wrote:Your car is fantastic mate! Love it!
How much does it way out of curiosity?
Thanks :D It should be about 850Kg most of them seem to be about that (once I'm in there quite a lot more :lol: )
e30_Turbo
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Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:59 am

JazzMan wrote:My straight through boxes from Magnaflow and Jetex look like that on the inside :)
Mine too :cool:

You could fit a skinny arm through and out the other side of mine.

Looking good Alex!
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Turbo-Brown
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Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:53 pm

In my usual way of getting things mostly done and then starting something else, I started the actuators today.

Was originally going to use carb diaphragms but decided the head down by the exhaust would probably kill them off pretty quickly.

Instead, it seemed like a good idea (at the time!) to sleeve some ali pipe with stainless steel, then knock up a couple of pistons with ali rings.

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Needless to say they don't seal particularly well, but I'm gonna press on with the remainder of the actuators and then test them in my mate's car.

The plan for testing is to connect the vac input to his throttle bodies, use one of the spare wires we left under the bonnet to control a boost solenoid and then have a fiddle around in the Emerald software to see how well these things work as position controllers. :)

Bit of a random pic of the charge cooler water pump and the vac pump which I reckon can both go where the air-con would've lived on the driver's side of the block :)

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Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:23 am

Nice work alex.

Heres a pic of mine, looks pritty simular to me!, heres afew pics with it on the car on a -40mm drop, mines does sit slightly low, but ive only cought it on the speed bumps you get at private companys and they've made them there self, and about 3mile high :x

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:cool: :cool:
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Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:20 pm

Just been thinking about your actuators and remeberd some of the machines i work on use a very simuliar design but instead of a ring they use a rubber o-ring up to about 6bar airline safe :D ? you could put two on if you wanted to be belt and braces but i think one would be ok, some of them do use small wear bands, to keep the piston streight but they are very reliable and run for 6months at around 18hours aday before needing to be replaced :D
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Turbo-Brown
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Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:53 pm

Ooh that exhaust looks great Matt! Was just about to PM you actually to say your Tee piece is welded up and in the post this evening :D There was only one though wasn't there?! :?

A guy on another forum made some very valid comments about the actuators I'd made last weekend so I had a good rethink during the week.

The ones I had made would've leaked like mad and probably barely moved, or at best have moved unpredictably.

I did consider piston type actuators, but I reckon the stiction would make very small movements of the actuators unpredictable soooooooo......

I went back to my very first idea which is to make properly sealed vacuum capsules with diaphragms. This eliminates unwanted air getting into the system and also elinimates stiction.

Been beavering away all day to get these done but I'm really happy that they're done! The first thing I can properly cross off the list as it happens :o

Here's the various bits which go together to make one actuator:

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Was gonna thread the ends of these rods and use two nuts to hold them in position, but then it occured to me it'd take about two minutes to just machine a pair of SHC screws and weld them on instead :D

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So the diaphragms go in like so:

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And attach to the rods like this:

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To give this which just needs four peripheral bolts to hold it together.

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Did think about directly tapping the top covers for the little push-in connectors but thought better of it in the end and welded a little boss on instead:

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These ones will of course need to be mounted well away from the exhaust manifold!
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Turbo-Brown
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Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:20 pm

Awesome! Got another two things crossed off the list today!

The inlet manifold is done:

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And so is the exhaust manifold with the bypass plumbing being properly welded together now!

Made sure everything was properly bolted together before starting the welding so everything still lines up when you take it apart now....phew!

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Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:43 pm

Great work alex as usual! :cool:

Thanks for doing the T-piece, there was only one ya :D

One thing that ive been wondering from looking at your posts... were do you do all the work?? it looks like its in your kitchen!!!! LOL
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Turbo-Brown
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Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:48 pm

Phew! There were two in the pic you sent me so I was starting to think one hand fallen out of the envelope!. Put another first class stamp on the envelope you sent, hope it's enough!

All the engine building for Brown and the welding for this one is done in akitchen :lol: My Nan used to live in a little annex flat to my parent's house, which is now free for me to use for this kinda thing.

Very useful as it's warm, light and all the surfaces are wipe clean which makes it ideal for engine building!
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Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:01 pm

SO! After much thinking on the subject of the charge cooler and a suitable heat exchanger to go in it, I've decided to buy a couple of oil coolers and see where that gets us.

There's a company called Setrab who make them almost exactly like the MOCAL ones with the exception that Setrab also offer a 310mm wide core version.

I've ordered two 13row coolers from them which can be put side by side to give a core that's about 95x310x100mm, making it about 90mm shorter than the old Cosworth IC core I was going to use.

Reason for having two of them is that one can have the water running from front to back and the other from back to front as to hopefully maintain a fairly even temperature of air coming through.

With any luck they'll arrive tomorrow which would mean I can get on with redesigning and manufacturing the charge cooler.

Here's roughly what they look like:

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Turbo-Brown
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Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:14 pm

Have made some progress on the new charge cooler today (and then run out of materials :lol: )

Here's the new cores and the little brackets I've made up to hold them together:

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And here's where they'll go in the end:

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Just gotta bracket them back to the little rubber bobbins tomorrow using whatever material I can find and then I can start on the foam cores for the shell parts :D


Got some springs for the actuators too, the biggest ones that RS do. It's incredible how firm they are but how easy it is to get the actuator to move just by sucking on the vac pipe.

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Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:57 pm

Nice brackets, be tthey took some bending to get all the bends in the right place :mad:
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Turbo-Brown
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Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:34 pm

It's the seemingly little things like those brackets that can take ages to do!

Have managed to finish them off today, and that's about it! Will go and do some more work on the mould for the boot lid in a minute though.....honest!

So here's the final resting place of the cores, unfortunately didn't have any polystyrene so starting on the CF shells will have to wait :(

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Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:40 pm

Looking seriously good my friend!
I think im going to have too book you up for some help shortly!

Im loving the charge cooler system!
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Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:58 pm

No worries dude, I've still got your exhaust at my parent's house too :lol:
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Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:38 am

ah i really need to get that! haha sorry mate, ill be over soon jus very hectic at the moment!
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Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:53 pm

OH the mess!

Have been cracking on with the new charge cooler and various bits of air plumbing, spurred on by the idea of using the lost foam process to make carbon fibre bits.

Bought a massive sheet of polystyrene from Wickes and have been cutting it up (in the house :lol: ) all day.

Started off having a check of under-bonnet clearance for the cores. There's not much, but there's enough!:

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Then got on with making some foam bits to support the shell of the cooler:

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And then got on with making foam bits for the air plumbing which will hopefully improve flow to the little turbo.....hopefully!

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Will try to make the other side of the cooler assembly tomorrow and order up all the lovely lovely carbon fibre and resin I'll need.

Gotta order up enough to make the sunroof and boot lid too as I should be finishing off the boot lid mould tomorrow too :D
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Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:49 pm

bloody hell dude. this is getting better and better!
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Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:56 pm

Looking great as always.

2 questions, though - Apart from the "wow" factor, why would you want to use CF instead of glass? It's easier to lay glass than CF - and I think that you'll need some heat shields anyway, as I doubt that normal resin (included "standard" epoxys) will withstand the heat of the turbos (even if it doesn't catch fire, it might go soft and deform)

Even panels that have been laid out of pre-preg CF and autoclaved (much less resin in the final product) have a limited lifespan around the exhausts of formula cars - and your turbos will probably get hotter than tubular manifolds on an N/A engine
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Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:51 pm

Oh yes, there will be many a heat shield in there. Question is do you use polished stainless which conducts badly and should keep it's shine, or polished ali which will dull over time, but is better able to spread the heat around?

Think having two layers seperated by 10mm or so should see a dramatic drop in temperatures.

Also think I'll use a long ali straight in that long vertical bit where it runs by the exhaust manifold.

Mainly the use of CF is for the wow-factor I have to admit, plus I'm enjoying learning about what you can and can't do with it :D
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Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:57 pm

Allready posted on your other thread, but have had a good think.

The PVA glue idea rocks. lost foam rocks too. Will be good to see the results you achieve with it. I'm doing some e36 parts at this very moment.
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Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:03 pm

Ooh, couldn't post some piccies up for inspiration could you, maybe in that other thread of mine? :D

Gonna order some CF this week for the making of panels, although everything's a bit turned-upside-down after this weekend :?
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Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:11 pm

What happened at the weekend?

I'll post some pics when there is something to show,still making the mould at the moment because these are parts Ihope to sell. Basically e36 rocker cover cover things.

I got my Cf bonnet from the group buy though, it looks A-mazing!
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Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:18 am

aluminium and get it anodised. - doesn't cost the earth and lasts.
(my opinion only of course)
Turbo-Brown
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Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:41 pm

I'd have thought that anodised ali would go a bit dull wouldn't it?

Reckon if I make them easily removable they should be easy enough to keep looking nice....probably.

At the weekend, I went from be hopelessly single to being not so single which kinda changed my priorities a bit....trouble being that she's moving to Scotland on Thursday, which is a massive turdy shit!
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Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:23 pm

Oh yeah, forgot to add that the other side of the charge cooler foam bit was finished on Sunday.

For some reason this one seems to clear the bonnet alot better than the old one did but still has a larger x-sectional area where it thins down.

Guess the core must be in enough of a different position for it to work or something, not complaining either way!

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Will have to have a last check for clearance with the throttles in place before I start making the CF bit, but looks like it should work....tentatively!
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Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:27 pm

Turbo-Brown wrote:At the weekend, I went from be hopelessly single to being not so single which kinda changed my priorities a bit....trouble being that she's moving to Scotland on Thursday, which is a massive turdy shit!
no suprises you were a single man, the amount of spare time you seem to have...!!!! :D

it'll take you 10 years before you're allowed enough time to finish this now winkeye :D
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Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:34 pm

:lol: Might all be a bit acedemic as tonight's her last night before moving best part of 400 miles away!

Can long distance relationships work?! I'm not equipped to deal with this kind of emotional torment, now cars; they're easy! :lol:
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Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:48 pm

I was glad of a long distance relationship for years. It allowed me a bit of space to do my man stuff... Trouble is I never had weekends to do it! 400 miles might be a stretch. You think you can get the car to run on sexual frustration? lol

I'm interested in the lost foam approach. I've often thought about making a nice carbon plenum (well, airbox) for my S50 that fits the E30 nicely. Might even be a way around all of the messing I'm going to have to do to use the standard air filter thingy. What are you going to dissolve the foam with? Acetone? Will you be vacum bagging the outside?

Oh and dont let your guard down.. Cars will emotionally torment you just as much as a woman. You grow to love them then they get in such a state they wont even pass an MOT. Still, you lavish the scabby old bruiser with time and attention (only occasionally looking at younger sexier models) and they repay you by costing a fortune to run and none of your mates are envious anymore.

My ex missus started out as a trim little GTI and ended up a bit of a citroen picasso....
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