Twin Seq. Dry sumping for beginners :D

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jaistanley
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:23 am

Mr. Brown..

Obviously you are a master tig'er indeed, but how difficult do you think welding those parts together would be with a 110 amp sealy mig with stainless wire and argon gas? I'm reasonable at welding anything higher guage than bodywork (which drives me insane and always goes wrong when I try!!).

I ask because I was thinking of making a centre section and using a supersprint backbox up for my S50 swap (I have the BTB manifold an x pipe and didn't want to pay an extra grand for the rest of the system!). Did you get the parts from that 4*4 company? Do you have thi link? I've lost mine.

Awesome work so far dude... Keep it up! :cool:

edit: I thik I found it again.. Was it milner?
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:56 am

Cheers Alex, don't know what you pay'd for the larger radius bends but from my work in 3" there £6.50 to staff and thats with only 20% off normal price, we also do 45 degrees for the same price :D
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:15 am

Should have no problems using the MIG at all Jai, made all the exhausty bits for Brown using a MIG. Doesn't look quite as pretty as the TIG, but it's no less functional. It was indeed Milner Offroad who I bought everything from except the tight bends and bit of flared tube.

£6?! If I had a brain I'd have asked you first Matt :lol:
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Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:22 pm

Have made a tiny bit of progress with the exhaust this weekend, started off with the down pipe but then thought I might be better of doing the rest of the system first so the DP has something to aim for.

Here's the beginnings of the DP:

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And then the beginnings of the main 3" system :D

It's sitting on a standard exhaust just to give an idea on what space there is available without having to crawl under the car every two minutes.

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Slowly but surely! :lol:
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hoshy
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Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:51 pm

Nice work Alex!

Finally got the super charger on today - got a decent 6v belt on too. Still some way to go but you can really feel it's gonna be nice when it's fully mapped. currently pushing about 5.5psi.
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Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:16 pm

O/T Hoshey WERE ARE THE PICS :D
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Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:56 pm

That's awesome Ashley! What does it feel like with the boost? :D
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hoshy
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Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:25 am

I'll start a thread with some pics etc. Still got a problem I think MS related - she hesitates really badly under load and MS seems to reset. It's weird as nothing has really changed on the electronic side. Even so, from the occasional times it doesn't hesitate you can really feel she's gonna be very nice when this problem is solved and she's mapped properly.

The 2nd or 3rd time I drove it I pulled away in first, got moving, then gave the accel a reasonable push and she span up, both wheels on the slip diff. Ok it was only in first but she's never done that before!

Still a few issues to sort out. Seems there's a bearing fucked so it whines like a mother-bitch. For example this morning on the way to work I was travelling at the speed limit in a 30, 5th gear sedate as you like and some guy shouted at me to "slow the fuck down". It really isn't as fast as it sounds, matey boy :)

Got to get some charge cooling sorted, really fancied water injection but it seems bloody expensive for a kit. Don't want masses of pipes for a front-mount ic so I'm thinking top-mount and a bonnet vent might be the way forward :twisted:

Popped in to see the gf and she said "You car sounds very different. It's louder, but not only that - the pitch has changed a lot too" lol. Reminds me of Initial D - anybody seen that?

Ok - started a thread off so here it is for anybody who wants to follow developments from here on. And I'll stop spamming your awesome thread now Alex :)

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... 78#1124178
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Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:52 pm

Awesome stuff, good to see a video of it running too :D

Blimey, thanks to the wonder of ebay, the water pump has just turned up!

Am trying to source a couple of v-bands too. Have got a 2.5" one and have put a bid on a 3" one as I need to split the down pipe or it just won't go in :lol:

Not too much of an issue though, just a little bit more welding.

Going to have a good rethink of the charge cooler this week I think. The more I think about it, the more I worry the all the welding heat might damage the core I'm using and I'd really rather it didn't leak!

My current thought is that I could use a couple of oil coolers mounted in a CF enclosure to do the job. I reckon that if I can carve the shape I need out of polystyrene I should be able to wrap it fairly easily.

We'll see though.

Does make me laugh how I keep re-starting these major components just because I've thought of a better way of doing it!
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Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:24 pm

Right, I'm really starting to think my charge cooler is scrap! :(

I filled it with water the other day and found a little wet spot on the outside.

I convinced myself that this was just a spot of water which had found its way onto the outside, but the more I think about it, the more I think it must have leaked out from inside the core.

Presumably this is going to be due to the head put into the core whilst welding. I did notice it had become banana shaped at one point, but it straightened out when it cooled down.

Like a nobber, I thought "would a teensy weensy leak be all that bad?" but the obvious anwer is "yes it bloody well would"

SO! Time to think of another solution.

I reckon I could easily knock up a replica of the cooler in polystyrene including the trumpets etc, and then wrap the whole thing in carbon fibre with relative ease so that'd be the casing of the thing taken care of.

That just leaves the core.

I could use an oil cooler I guess, but nothing long enough with sufficient depth seems to be available so that leaves the option of making a core.

I've come up with this as an idea on how to get around the problem of heat breaking the core:

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Basically, there are two drilled end plates, each with 64 holes in them. There will be a top plate and a bottom plate, two spacer plates, two end tank plates with a water pipe welded to them and then 100 cooling fins at 4mm intervals.

The fins are to be 0.1mm thick and have 64 holes punched through them so that each hole has a swage, rather than just a drilled hole.

Through each of the 64 holes will pass a 1/4" aluminium tube (not shown in the sketch)

Each aluminium tube will be either soldered or bonded into the thick very end plates, with the spacer and end tanks being bolted and sealed on to form a water tank at each end.

The whole lot can then be attached to flanges on the CF shells using screws and sealant.

It's relatively simple in principal and is (unless I solder the pipes) free from heat distortion problems, but the question is, do we think that 100 fins and 64 tubes will be good enough at exchanging heat with the charge air?!

Input from all is welcome as ever! :)
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Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:17 am

Alex,

Have you considered the scooby legacy CC?

like this on the left:

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Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:44 pm

Think that'd work if I just had a single throttle, but with the ITBs it would be a real pain to adapt and probably involve some more welding which might again damage the core :(

We'll get there one way or another! :D
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hoshy
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Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:13 pm

Just a bit OT - Are there many benefits to ITBs on FI ?
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Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:04 pm

Two things, if you had that many tubes with thin walls would you realy need the fins? ( if there that long and thin then then they may brake up with the pressure changes and the heat involved) the tubes are also the only part which will contact the fin, so you will have a very small point of contact with the fin for the heat to be transfered to the water.

The other thing is that the thinner and bigger you make the fins the longer it takes for heat to transfer from the tip of the fin to the point of contact and as your fins would be very thin there wouldnt be much body to absorbe the heat and dissipate ( Big word winkeye ) it back to the water. Thats why laminova cores only use thin short fins or the heat from the tip would never get to the tubes as the middle of the fin would also be absorbing heat and trying to get rid of it through the water core.

Hope that makes sense.

I think you may be ok just fitting as many thin walled tubes as you can in there as you would be able to get a lot in, or maybe just lots of thick walled tubes with 1x1.5mm fins on them???

Another thing to think of is the direction of flow, you dont want the water to cool the charge at cyclinder 1-2-3 but then absorbed as much heat as it can by the time it gets to 4-5-6. I run my two front to back on the top and back to front on the bottom so theres a equel amount of cooling avalible to all the cylinders.

Lastly you dont want to run the same water throught the back tubes as you are running throught the back for a simular reason to above, the water will reheat the cooled air from the front tubes, so you could do with a dual circuit for the best cooling depending how much heat you need to get rid of. :mad:

If you though you migh not be making that much heat then you would probly be ok as you are going to want the air to have as much contact for aslong a time as possible with the coolers so it an loose its heat :D :D
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Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:00 pm

There's probably not a massive amount of point having ITBs on an FI setup except that you can have a great big free area and the throttle response should be better than if you had a giant plenum and a giant throttle at one end of it.

The other thing is that I wouldn't want the charge cooler core to be subject to a vacuum as if it did spring a leak that'd suck all the water out :lol:


That's a good point about the thickness of the fins, although in my little design there the distance between the pipe centres is quite small so the heat doesn't have far to travel.

I'm planning on swaging the holes in the fins so as to increase the contact area they have with the pipes, rather than just drilling them. The swaging should stop them flapping about too.

Good point about the water flow there too. I was hoping originally that a high flow capacity pump would mean the water didn't have to hang around in the core for too long. If I'm starting againg though, it makes sense to perhaps have the left half of the core flow front to back and the right hand half flowing the other way. Would be easy to include a baffle in the seperation bit in the tank to create two seperate water systems.

Just waiting on a price for 100No. 100x100x0.1mm squares of aluminium now!
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Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:05 pm

How will you space them?? i think you may struggle to make them stay in place unless you squash them togeather but then you might make them to restrictive! :(

You design is good though, and you can make it as long as you need. how many holes will you have to punch in exactly the same place again???? :mad:
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Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:40 pm

It'll take a little experimentation with a punch that I'll have to machine up, but it should be easy to make them a slight interferance fit on the tubes.

It would be easy to give the top and bottom plates a thin coat of adhesive prior to assembly so that the tops and bottoms of all the fins are held in place.

Gonna make up a pair of steel plates to clamp each fin between. The top one with a guide hole for the punch and the bottom one with a clearance hole to swage the hole into.......and 6400 holes later they'll all be done :lol:
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Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:38 pm

Turbo-Brown still looking for that TIG torch? Tried parweld.com ? Just interested, what welder do you use? Nice work!
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Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:56 pm

Cheers dude, funnily enough it's a Parweld torch I've got at the moment. Had a look through their catalogue but they only seem to have flexi head ones rather than pencil type straight ones.

I just have a "Blueweld 160" digi invertor. It's not especially powerful and it doesn't have too many features, but it can do AC, has HF over everything (I think!) and generally seems to produce reasonable results even in my unskilled hands :D
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Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:09 pm

Sure I saw a Pencil torch in the WLD catalogue. Anyway yeah do you do any fabrication for a living? I'm an aircraft engineer for light aircraft. Just bought a Miller Dynasty 200 DX (long name right!) second hand mind. Just getting practice with ally.
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Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:50 pm

Nay, I just knock stuff up for fun :D Drive a computer doing CAD for a living, probably as well as I reckon it'd get boring making stuff both at work and at home.

Crikey, that's a proper high responsibility job! Guess your attention to detail must be pretty top notch!

Have heard that Miller are good machines, probably is better to buy second hand as you get more for your money. Still, hindsight is a wonderful thing :lol:


Awesome, just in the nick of time the V-band kits I ordered have turned up!

With any luck I should be able to get the exhaust done this weekend, that or find out it definately won't fit :lol:

Good old XS power kit though as one of the flanges is about 2mm too small on the inside. Not a problem if you've a lathe and can machine it out to size, but if you don't that'd be a real arse pain!
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Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:35 pm

Turbo-Brown wrote:
Good old XS power kit though as one of the flanges is about 2mm too small on the inside. Not a problem if you've a lathe and can machine it out to size, but if you don't that'd be a real arse pain!
I bet that's the same as the one I have, the V-band and two flanges, both the same od, one is the same ID across it and the other is tappered in about 2mm, just means they don't flush up against each other and leave a step.

Saying that tho it'll only ever see on or the other as it'll be bolted to a HX50! one day.........

Pics on Monday then Alex :cool:
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Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:05 pm

Exactly that! Very strange! Still, an easy fix on the lathe. Might turn a step inside so the pipe's a good fit, then just run a wilty weld around the inside of them both. Seems to reduce distortion of the flanges and doesn't leave a bead so gas flow should still be good :D
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Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:54 pm

Not a massively productive weekend unfortunately, have spent almost all of it blinging up the tail pipes for the back box :lol:

Also made the mistake of going to the gym with my boss on Saturday, que massive bouts of oneupmanship and today my arms don't work :lol:


So, we start out with a grubby bit of pipe, slash cut to 30 degrees (45 looked like too much this time for some reason)

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Attack it with some 80 grit compound on the mop for a while to get to the bottom of the deep scratches and take out the welding witness marks.

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Starting to look half decent by stage 4 of the polishing which is what you do after using 80 grit, 150 grit and 300 grit compounds.

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And finally, after the 6th stage you end up with this. It's not perfect, but it looks alright.

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Next up was cutting the silencer end plates with some holes. Hate doing this as the stainless work hardens and by hole 4 the cutter is all but blunt despite flooding it with coolant all the way through.

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Finally, weld the tails onto one of the plates, marvel at how distorted it becomes, straighten it out.....and then hold them upto the cutout and hope they look OK.

Whadda we think? :D

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Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:33 pm

Looks fantastic - are you sure that there's enough clearance to avoid melting the bumper?
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Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:35 pm

Cheers dude :D

Think the turbos must take quite alot of the heat out of the exhaust as the tail pipes on Brown were only ever touchably/holdably warm after a good hard run.
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Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:06 pm

Alex, have you considered glueing your intercooler together or at least the end cans to the core? I found some Loctite epoxy with absurd strength (something like 20N/mm^2 adhesion to clean aluminium, tensile test. Stronger in shear), it was also stable to well over 100degC, resistant to water and oil (something like 20% degradation of strength in the longterm).

I eventually opted for buying a core and welding it. It was just easier than using the glue. I still have it somewhere, I'll see if I can find the part no.

It's all coming together really well now. Good effort.
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Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:41 pm

jkarran wrote:Alex, have you considered glueing your intercooler together or at least the end cans to the core? I found some Loctite epoxy with absurd strength (something like 20N/mm^2 adhesion to clean aluminium, tensile test. Stronger in shear), it was also stable to well over 100degC, resistant to water and oil (something like 20% degradation of strength in the longterm).

I eventually opted for buying a core and welding it. It was just easier than using the glue. I still have it somewhere, I'll see if I can find the part no.

It's all coming together really well now. Good effort.
jk
That's good advice. We use 3M structural adhesive for assembling ally parts at work. increadbily strong, and very heat resistant.

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/sear ... &R=4587292

stuff like this should do the trick, although you need to buy a gun and nozzles for it to work properly.

4000psi shear strength, and no chance of distortion.
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Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:04 pm

Sounds good.. Pretty much what Lotus use to build cars from!

Jhonno needs some to fix his gearbox..... :mad:
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Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:19 pm

Really coming along now, looking good :cool:
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Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:23 pm

Little more progress on the exhaust system today,

Have almost finished the silencer, just need to pack it and weld the botton half on:

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Welded a little hanger on to bolt to the gearbox bit, rather suspect it will have to move though as I reckon the hanger is in a different place on the manual gearboxes.

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And have generally been crawling around in the muck seeing what will fit :D

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Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:41 pm

[quote="Turbo-Brown"]
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Is there anything in the middle of those perf tubes ?
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Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:52 pm

Not a sausage, whyeeeeeeee? :)
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Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:03 pm

Turbo-Brown wrote:Not a sausage, whyeeeeeeee? :)
Well........

A "Normal" silencer will have those perf tubes blocked halfway down.
The reason for this is that the exhaust gas has to leave the perf tube, enter the wadding, then re-enter the perf tube to exit the exhaust system. while the gas's are doing all this bouncing around, it lose's alot of Sound energy, thus being "Silenced".
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Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:32 pm

My straight through boxes from Magnaflow and Jetex look like that on the inside :)
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