My LPG install thread ;)

[gareth]

Cool, so wheres the blow back valve going ?

in one of the above pics, on the TB side of the AFM

I thought you had to have one fitted after the TB inase the manifold is full of gas and back fires ?

you can fit mushroom valves (like a blowoff valve thingy) to the manifold but that means removing the manifold to install them. a whole world of pain that i'd like to avoid if possible!
i've only ever seen one M30 with them fitted anyway so i guess they're not essential...?

[gareth]

custom tanks? how do you mean? small LPG and small petrol tanks in the original petrol tank location? would be neat

exactly it dude my uncle done it on his ford explorer back in the days

maybe you could fit 25litres of each plus the 40 in the boot, we could get to the pod quicker then lol

haha! you missed 2 fill-ups before we even picked you up!

[Brianmoooore]

Leonardo ECU fits up nicely just behind the ABS ECU, with the laptop connector just hanging down into the top of the glovebox.
The stepper motor would be better placed where you have a short joining piece in the vapour line near the mixer. There's going to be a bit of a delayed response where you have it.
Suitable tees for the coolant take off should be readily available from LPG parts suppliers, but go for metal ones rather than plastic, which have been known to crack. E30 heaters have a valve that cuts off the coolant flow when the temperature knob is turned to full cold, so the pipes have to be teed off, unless you unplug the electric valve and rely on the air blending flap to give you cold air. If this is done, the heater and vapouriser can be connected in series, with the vapouriser downstream of the heater, giving almost unaffected heater performance. If heater output is noticeably down with the teed off arrangement, then try a restrictor is the vapouriser hose to divert more water to the heater.
That big flat face on the side of the inlet manifold looks an ideal place to fit an extra mushroom type backfire valve.
If you try to get this installation certified, you might get a moan about the 6mm pipe going into the vapouriser - it's supposed to go round in a complete circle and a bit before connecting to the vapouriser to form an 'anti vibration coil'.

[Andy335Touring]

a whole world of pain that i'd like to avoid if possible!

They arn't too bad, you could have it off, fit the valve and refit in about 4hrs.

Drop your washer tank, unbolt your PAS res' and move it to the side to give you some elbow room.

If you have servo/manifold clearance issues so the manifold won't come off the studs then you can undo the engine mount and jack the engine up a bit.

There's a Polish lad at work with a 520, M50 with a plastic manifold and he's got one on his. LPG is very popular over there apparentely ?

[gareth]

i'll swap that hose with the stepper round the other way then, make sense now you mention it.

i'm not going to get the install certified as my insurance company doesn't need it. do you think the coil of pipe is really worthwhile? both parts are mounted rigidly.

regarding backfire valves, i might come back to it at a later date, especially if i ever have the manifold off. i assume it would only really need a musroom valve if it backfires with the throttle shut as there's nowhere for the gas to go. hmm, that's a worry actually! the TB should hack that ok, i've never seen a carb get damaged by a backfire and that's a similar situation i guess.

oh, do you think there would be issues with my use of tye wraps regarding certification at a later date?

cheers for the deposited mine of information as usual brian

[gareth]

a whole world of pain that i'd like to avoid if possible!

They arn't too bad, you could have it off, fit the valve and refit in about 4hrs.

that's not too bad then... doesn't look fun though!
wish i'd planned ahead before i fitted the engine

[beefy]

Gareth were did you source all the parts and can i ask how much is the install going to cost.

The reason i ask is i have nearly finished my m30 conversion and am considering converting to lpg.

Cheers

[Brianmoooore]

oh, do you think there would be issues with my use of tye wraps regarding certification at a later date?

"effectively secured at intervals of no more than 600mm" is all the regs say, so as long as the cable ties are suitable strong there shouldn't be a problem.
The "anti vibration coils" are just a "good practice" thing, and not likely to make any difference in the real world.
Alloy manifold and throttle butterfly are quite capable of containing a backfire - same as a carb engine, as someone mentioned above. It's the AFM flap, air hose and filter box that don't like backfires.

[gareth]

Gareth were did you source all the parts and can i ask how much is the install going to cost.

The reason i ask is i have nearly finished my m30 conversion and am considering converting to lpg.

Cheers

ebay / forum for my bits dude!
price all depends on luck really. i reckon a £300 budget for used bits with all new hoses etc should cover most installs, more if you go for sequential

[gareth]

oh, do you think there would be issues with my use of tye wraps regarding certification at a later date?

"effectively secured at intervals of no more than 600mm" is all the regs say, so as long as the cable ties are suitable strong there shouldn't be a problem.

cool, mine are secured about every 100-150mm most of the way. nearer 200mm at the back as there's not a lot to secure to! i routed the pipe over the tank as it was out, seemed to make sense as it's the only real way of keeping well away from the exhaust. probably overkill but the tank was out anyway

The "anti vibration coils" are just a "good practice" thing, and not likely to make any difference in the real world.
Alloy manifold and throttle butterfly are quite capable of containing a backfire - same as a carb engine, as someone mentioned above. It's the AFM flap, air hose and filter box that don't like backfires.

i'm planning on keeping spare hoses and AFM, just on the off-chance! if it does shaft them, i'll just run on petrol until i fit a mushroom valve or something

[gareth]

Here's a couple of sites I've used for LPG stationmaps:
http://www.gas-tankstellen.info/menu.php?language=en_US
http://www.cfbp.fr/?p_idref=1103
You need an ACME screw adaptor, and the French type 'dish' adaptor to make sure you can fill anywhere.

brian, just a quickie if i may...

'french dish' adaptor?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LPG-FILLER-ADAPTE ... dZViewItem
or
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LPG-FILLER-ADAPTE ... dZViewItem

i can find acme to bayonet but not the other way round

[Brianmoooore]

Serious ebay rip off!!!!!
Try this link: http://www.tinleytech.co.uk/acatalog/Fi ... _caps.html
The first four pics, show the type of filler you should have on your car, with the Dutch/UK bayonet type connector.
The next pic. is of the vastly superior 'cup' type adaptor, that you need for France, and the pic. after that shows the Acme type.
Check that your existing filler has a thread, and that it's 22mm, not 10mm

[gareth]

fantastic, cheers for that.

my filler is like the 2nd one down.
time to get an order in methinks

[gareth]

quick update, just finishing off the wiring today hopefuly...
should be working tomorrow (touch wood) in time to drive to france/belgium/germany the following day...

[Brianmoooore]

Many years ago, before I knew anything about LPG, or much about E30s, I had my 325 booked in with the local convertor for conversion. He promised me faithfully that the work would be done before I embarked on a trip such as yours.
This was before I knew what a complete and utter prat he is, and of course the time for my trip came, still with no conversion.
Upon my return, I calculated that he'd cost me around £200 extra in fuel costs, so I told him exactly where to insert his vapouriser, and proceeded to source and fit the kit myself. That alone saved my £400 over his price, so I was now £200 up, not counting my own labour!

[gareth]

hopefully i'll overcome my own utter prat-ness and get it sorted in time.
i've got the lead sorted for the leonardo and the software (cheers again! must post you a beer!) so hopefully i'll be able to get that all set up in time luckily, my little bro has just installed a car PC in his seat leon cupra and he's coming on the trip in said beastie, so i can install the software on his, bring a lead and make adjustments en-route if needed
when he starts the car, it makes the windows startup sound through his stereo!!!!!

if i fail to get it running, it's not the end of the world for me, we're sharing the total fuel costs between three of us (me, my bro and one passenger) so it'll only cost 'me' 1/3 of the difference between petrol and LPG.

oh, i've bought myself a tomtom and uploaded several uk and europe LPG filling station maps on it too i can just tell it to take me to the nearest one or divert my route to take them in

[gareth]

i am cooking on gas now!!!!
all finished, filled with a fivers worth of LPG and i'm away!!!!

i've not attached it to the software to set things up yet but as the kit was off a E32 with a M30B35, i think it's all the same. it certainly runs ok and the level gauge settings seem to work with my level gauge too.

[Brianmoooore]

It'll run OK on the default settings, but there's a few things that can be set up for optimum running, like over run cut off, change over delay, lambda lean warning, setting stepper limits, etc.

[gareth]

i've been out in it a bit more and it's running well. it has a bit of a cough changing from pertol to LPG but if i'm over 3k when it does it, there are no problems.

fingers crossed

i did fill it right up earlier too... £21.50 love it!!!!!

[Brianmoooore]

So how many litres does it hold? And how many should it hold?
One tip for your trip - make sure you have something on board that can replace the large rubber band around the blowback arrester. This band normally just snaps back into place after a blowback, but on one occasion, when my wife was driving alone, she caused a blowback and the band flipped itself over the end of the air hose.
In this state, the car wouldn't run at all on gas and only idle on petrol, so I got a phone call!
It's never happened again, and the band only needed slipping back into its groove, but, if the band was to break, and you didn't have tape or similar, you would be stranded.

[gareth]

good call brian, mine has already broken so has a pvc tape bandage for the time being

one more thing on my shopping list!

i filled with a fiver initially, ran it around for about 20 miles-ish .round town, idling while tinkering/checking it all over, stop start traffic then booting it a bit to see if i could feel the difference, which i can't to be honest! then filled up til it stopped at £21.50. that's about 44 litres in total minus the fuel used. the tank says 42 litres (assuming 100% fill i guess) so 33.6 litres at 80% full. seems about right, maybe on the high side though? i'll stop short on each fill-up and do a proper test when i return.
the tank does say max fill 80% so maybe that's 42 litres at 80% full?

edit: should get some sleep now, i need to be in dover in 6 hours!

[Brianmoooore]

Guess you're not going to read this in time, since you're probably already across the channel, but check up on the tightness of the cooling system hose clips after a few miles. Embarking on a multi thousand mile trip immediately after such major work isn't really recommended, but best of luck!
Bet you soon get fed up with that tiny tank!

[Morat]

That's awesome
Brian - whats the realistic tank range you can get out of LPG using a doughnut tank in the spare wheel well? Or - where would you recommend an LPG tank?

[Brianmoooore]

Biggest tank you can get in a touring wheel well is 630m X 215mm (IIRC), and is 50 litres actual.
80% of 50l is 40l, but mine is set to accept about 43 - 44 litres.
This tank projects about 10mm out of the top of the wheel well, but by removing the felt under the boot floor, and sticking some thin strips of wood underneath it, this causes no problems.
LPG mileage is about 80% of petrol mileage, so I can carry the equivalent, mileage wise, of 35 litres of petrol.
Not a great range, but you don't have to panic when it gets low, as you can run it dry and switch to petrol in an emergency.

[gareth]

i'm back!

no problems with the LPG whatsoever! i did manage to run dry at one stage and i think that may have contributed to overheating a bit but once that had cooled, we were off again. it was overheating anyway though to be fair. there's a loads of LPG filling stations in france and belgium but not so many in germany. belgium is cheapest at about 0.6 euros a litre! that's about 40p!

after the run over to the nurburgring, i worked out the economy... it's doing a £/mile equivalent of 57mpg on a run! i'm rather chuffed with that! cheaper than my brothers seat leon tdi on the journey too

it does seem to run noticeably hotter on LPG than petrol. i didn't fit the timing correction module but could this help things if were to fit it?


oh, the small tank is a pain when i push it too, doesn't take long to empty and more of a faff to refill but i can live with that.

[Brianmoooore]

0.6 euros a litre! that's about 40p!

Was a couple of years ago, but the £'s been in free fall against the Euro! More like 53p at the moment!!
57 MPG equivalent, and still on factory default settings for the ECU, IIRC. Should be a little more to come when everything is set up.
The Belgian gas is cheaper than the French stuff, but the French stuff has a higher proportion of butane in it, and should have given you around another 15% MPG.
No reason why it should run hotter on LPG. The actual flame temperature is slightly higher, but the overall heat produced is less.

[Morat]

This is all very tempting, but I do like the reassurance of a spare wheel...

[Brianmoooore]

This is all very tempting, but I do like the reassurance of a spare wheel...

I've carried a space saver around for eight years, and haven't used it once!

[gareth]

i carried my spare wheel in a bin bag - only ever used it once and not on this trip

[d6dph]

Welcome back Gareth

[gareth]

cheers fella

just sorting out pics and a few sneaky lap videos now...

[gareth]

well, that was all going smoothly til today...
my fuel pump has decided to pack up! i wasn't running particularly low on petrol or anything either.
should be able to get one in the morning so it's no big deal, but i wonder if this is no coincidence. lucky it didn't happen in germany!

[Brianmoooore]

well, that was all going smoothly til today...
my fuel pump has decided to pack up!

No big deal - you're not going it use it much from now on!
A mod I did to my touring relatively recently was to connect a spare rear window demister switch (with legend removed) into the fuel pump feed, so that after the engine has started from cold and been switched to LPG for the day, and there's sufficient LPG in the tank to be in no danger of running out, the fuel pump can be switched off. Avoids unneccesary wear on the pump, and the possibility of having petrol spraying around under the bonnet at 40 PSI.
You shouldn't have any trouble starting your car on LPG without using petrol.

[gareth]

that's odd as mine won't start on LPG uinless it's hot. not even a splutter.
i think there's something rev related in the changeover point within the ecu or something. when i swap from petrol to LPG, it takes ages unless i give the throttle a quick blip. similarly, without a few revs, i won't fire up on LPG. i started it earlier to get home using cold start up the ICV hole, blipping it when it cought and it then ran on LPG fine.

[Brianmoooore]

The default setting for the Leonardo is that if you switch on the ignition with the fuel switch on gas, it will start on petrol, and then switch to gas the first time the revs pass 2000 RPM. There will be a 0.4 second before the gas starts after the petrol is switched off.
If you switch on the ignition withe fuel switch set to gas, switch it to petrol and then back to gas it will start on gas, without using petrol.
The car will aways require more cranking to start on gas than petrol, because gas has to be sucked all the way along the inlet tract to the engine, while petrol is squirted straight onto the back of the inlet valves.
All these settings can be changed when you get it connected to a laptop.