M50 Developments - considering an M50? Read this.

[jmc330i]

Now i cant get the 5 series dip stick in because there is a round thing bolted to the block which i think is piped up to the vanos units and its in the way

I dont know others have done, but I just modified the dipstick tube a little. Well bent it quite a bit actually.
I took the round Vanos thing off, offered it all up together and bent the dipstick tube till it all fitted.

And I dont think Ive got the sump baffle plate. It wouldnt fit together with it, so I left it out. My sump was from a 525 M50 if it makes a difference.

[ian332isport]

Andy,

I did like James has done, and modified the dipstick tube to go around the Vanos pressure accumulator.

You can actually push the accumulator upwards in it's clamp a bit, and this gives a little more clearance.

The dipstick tube needs to bend outwards almost as soon as possible, and then needs another bend to get it going back up again after it has cleared the bottom of the accumulator.

Cheers,

Ian.

[buster]

ok,thanks.I will bend it to suit.

I have noticed that the oil pipe (11 15 1 401 217) on top of the oil seperator is perished so need to replace it,i put my finger straight through it ! Is the oil seperator a service part ? just thought it may need cleaning out or replacing.

[ian332isport]

ok,thanks.I will bend it to suit.

I have noticed that the oil pipe (11 15 1 401 217) on top of the oil seperator is perished so need to replace it,i put my finger straight through it ! Is the oil seperator a service part ? just thought it may need cleaning out or replacing.

I don't believe the seperator is a service part. I have certainly never done anything to mine apart from giving the ouside a quick clean before I put the engine in the car.

If you want to clean it, just sit it in some cleaning solvent or degreaser for a while. Failing that, a good shot of brake/carb cleaner will shift any gunk there is inside.

Ian.

[buster]

ok ,thanks Ian,i was just wiping it off with a cloth when i put my finger straight though the hose which is on top ! it had just rotted away

[buster]

Right,dipstick fitted,bent it to suit and moved vanos doodaa up.

A few questions Ian :

Did you use the m3 evo oil cooler ? if so did it need to be modded to fit ?

When aligning the gearbox,what did you line it up to ??
so far i lined the outlet spiggot on the output flange up with the hole where the gearlever pokes through.I have used the m3 alloy yoke for the gearlever and used the e30 (z3) gearlever.

Need to get it inline for measuring up to make the gearbox cross member.
I had to lever it slightly towards the passenger side to get it to line up.

[ian332isport]

Right,dipstick fitted,bent it to suit and moved vanos doodaa up.

A few questions Ian :

Did you use the m3 evo oil cooler ? if so did it need to be modded to fit ?

When aligning the gearbox,what did you line it up to ??
so far i lined the outlet spiggot on the output flange up with the hole where the gearlever pokes through.I have used the m3 alloy yoke for the gearlever and used the e30 (z3) gearlever.

Need to get it inline for measuring up to make the gearbox cross member.
I had to lever it slightly towards the passenger side to get it to line up.

Andy,

I used a standard E30 325i cooler, and used a combination of E36 Evo cooler pipes, and a variety of pipe fittings to hook it all up.

The E30 and E36 coolers are actually the same size, so there's no problem using the E30 one. The easiest thing would be to use the standard E36 cooler and the standard pipes. The problem with this, is that there is little or no airflow to the cooler, as it hangs off the bottom of the radiator. This is unfortunately on the wrong side of a box section at the front of the E30.

The gearbox basically aligns itself when you drop the engine on it's mounts. I guess the centre of the gearstick hole is going to be close, but you really need the propshaft to align it correctly. It's not just left to right that's critical, but up and down as well. I found this out the hard way, and had to modify my fancy new gearbox mount because of this.

You will find that the gearbox sits very close to the right hand side of the tunnel, but this is normal. The output flange will be pretty much in the middle. I used the 6 speed evo linkage including the lever, and it all fits nicely. I think the lever was approx half an inch forward of centre, but has not caused any problems, and all the gaiters and insulation still fit fine.

I really would recommend getting the propshaft done first, or you will have problems down the line. You must ensure that there is no angular deflection in the rubber joint on the back of the gearbox, or it will rip itself to pieces in a very short time. The front section of the propshaft needs to run perfectly in-line with the gearbox. You then jack the gearbox up or down to get the centre bearing bolted to the bottom of the car without forcing it into position. If you use the bolts to pull it into place, it's no good.

Cheers,

Ian.

[Karan]

Right,dipstick fitted,bent it to suit and moved vanos doodaa up.

A few questions Ian :

Did you use the m3 evo oil cooler ? if so did it need to be modded to fit ?

When aligning the gearbox,what did you line it up to ??
so far i lined the outlet spiggot on the output flange up with the hole where the gearlever pokes through.I have used the m3 alloy yoke for the gearlever and used the e30 (z3) gearlever.

Need to get it inline for measuring up to make the gearbox cross member.
I had to lever it slightly towards the passenger side to get it to line up.

Andy,

I used a standard E30 325i cooler, and used a combination of E36 Evo cooler pipes, and a variety of pipe fittings to hook it all up.

The E30 and E36 coolers are actually the same size, so there's no problem using the E30 one. The easiest thing would be to use the standard E36 cooler and the standard pipes. The problem with this, is that there is little or no airflow to the cooler, as it hangs off the bottom of the radiator. This is unfortunately on the wrong side of a box section at the front of the E30.

The gearbox basically aligns itself when you drop the engine on it's mounts. I guess the centre of the gearstick hole is going to be close, but you really need the propshaft to align it correctly. It's not just left to right that's critical, but up and down as well. I found this out the hard way, and had to modify my fancy new gearbox mount because of this.

You will find that the gearbox sits very close to the right hand side of the tunnel, but this is normal. The output flange will be pretty much in the middle. I used the 6 speed evo linkage including the lever, and it all fits nicely. I think the lever was approx half an inch forward of centre, but has not caused any problems, and all the gaiters and insulation still fit fine.

I really would recommend getting the propshaft done first, or you will have problems down the line. You must ensure that there is no angular deflection in the rubber joint on the back of the gearbox, or it will rip itself to pieces in a very short time. The front section of the propshaft needs to run perfectly in-line with the gearbox. You then jack the gearbox up or down to get the centre bearing bolted to the bottom of the car without forcing it into position. If you use the bolts to pull it into place, it's no good.

Cheers,

Ian.

thanks for that info Ian....... im getting to that stage now... so ill be doing that!

cheers
Karan

[Karan]

oh yeh.... and how does one go about lining the front prop section up with the gbox? just check for rubber doughnut deflection on rotation? or is there more to it?

[buster]

ok,i will measure the prop up.I have the m3 evo one and the 325 one.Just send it of to get done.
front part e36 before the centre bearing then e30 all the way back from the centre bearing ? thats what i was planning.

Also id be interested in knowing how to correctly line up the front part of the prop

thanks Ian,

andy

[ian332isport]

ok,i will measure the prop up.I have the m3 evo one and the 325 one.Just send it of to get done.
front part e36 before the centre bearing then e30 all the way back from the centre bearing ? thats what i was planning.

Also id be interested in knowing how to correctly line up the front part of the prop

thanks Ian,

andy

Yeah, my prop is the same as you described above. Reco-Prop have done a few of these now

As for alignment, it's actually very easy due to the very stiff nature of the E36 Evo (and E34 M5 - same part I believe) rubber coupling.

Just bolt the prop to the back of the box, and the shaft will be pretty much aligned. You will see what I mean when you get there, but you have to push reasonably hard to make it move. It's more than capable of supporting the weight of the propshaft.

You then need to move the gearbox position until the centre bearing is just touching the bottom of the car. Once this is done, you can measure up for the gearbox mount.

When doing the gearbox mount, it's best to use a bit of trial and error to get the height correct. You need to allow for the weight of the box compressing the rubber mounts, so don't rely on measurements alone. You can always use shims or washers to make fine adjustments.

Cheers,

Ian.

[buster]

what do you tell reco prop ? the car,what im doing and how long ?

Do you know the dimensions or are you going to make me crawl back under the car with 2 props and get them myself !

thanks Ian.

[ian332isport]

what do you tell reco prop ? the car,what im doing and how long ?

Do you know the dimensions or are you going to make me crawl back under the car with 2 props and get them myself !

thanks Ian.

Andy,

Reco-Prop don't need to know the application, you just need to tell them the length from point A to point B etc.

As for the measurement, I would highly recommend measuring it yourself. It's really going to ruin your day if my measurement is wrong for your car

I used the centre line of the bolt holes that secure the centre bearing as the datum point. I then measured from there, to the face of the rubber gearbox coupling. My measurement was 512mm. This measurement is the same on the propshaft. You just need to tell Reco-Prop the distance from the centre of the slotted hole in the centre bearing to the front face of the front flange. If you PM me your e-mail address, I'll send over a couple of photo's that should help.

Cheers,

Ian.

[buster]

ok cheers Ian,pm sent.I know what you mean though.I need a new rubber coupling as the m3 one was knackered,as is the 325 one !

Also,do you have any measurements for your engine position from a given datum point ?
Just to make sure mine is ok as im worry worry worry about it being wrong.As a rough one though the engine lifting lug on the front of the engine is in the middle of the engine bay left to right.

thanks Ian.

andy

[buster]

hi guys.My prop length needs to be 511mm from centre line of bearing carrier to output shaft on gearbox.Only one mm off yours Ian !!

I measured slightly different,same affect though.I measured the rubber coupling at 34 mm then measured from the output shaft of gearbox to centre of bolt hole for centre bearing and got 545mm - 34 for coupling = 511 mm

I will phone reco prop tomorrow.

[ian332isport]

Hi Andy,

That's an excellent result

There's probably 15-20mm of adjustment in the centre bearing holes, so 1mm is not going to hurt

Cheers,

Ian.

[buster]

Hi Ian,
i have removed the brake servo and i thought id try to get plenum on but it hits the heater matrix pipe.How did you get around this problem ?
Also,there are three water pipes at the back there,which one is which
Theres one that comes out of the back of the head.
And One that has a Y peice and splits into two pipes.

I should have payed more attention when i was removing the engine,was too busy pulling stuff off all over !

thanks
andy

[Karan]

Hi Ian,
i have removed the brake servo and i thought id try to get plenum on but it hits the heater matrix pipe.How did you get around this problem ?
Also,there are three water pipes at the back there,which one is which
Theres one that comes out of the back of the head.
And One that has a Y peice and splits into two pipes.

I should have payed more attention when i was removing the engine,was too busy pulling stuff off all over !

thanks
andy

hi andy...

i have this prob too

i am gonna cut the pipes inside the car and run rubber flexi pipes... this should be ok

i 'think' u have one pipe coming out the back of the head... this goes to the lower heater pipe... but u prob already know that.....

[ian332isport]

Hi Ian,
i have removed the brake servo and i thought id try to get plenum on but it hits the heater matrix pipe.How did you get around this problem ?
Also,there are three water pipes at the back there,which one is which
Theres one that comes out of the back of the head.
And One that has a Y peice and splits into two pipes.

I should have payed more attention when i was removing the engine,was too busy pulling stuff off all over !

thanks
andy

Hi Andy,

I also found the problem with the heater pipes.

To get around this, I cut the plastic heater pipes pretty much flush with the bulkhead, and then used a couple of Samco 90 degree elbow pipes (19mm internal) to hook it up.

What you need to do, is push the Samco hose over the now shortened plastic pipes, and put the jubilee clip on the inside under the dash. This setup leaves the rubber hose running tight up against the bulkead, and leaving space for the plenum. With a bit of work, it's possible to push the Samco hose through the original rubber bulkhead grommet, so it's all still leak tight. A actually seem to remember turning the grommet around, so the inside is out, and the otside is in, but can't for the life of me remember why. I guess it just fitted a bit better that way.

Something we could do here if you like, is swap my shortened pipes for your standard ones (this includes the heater valve). This would then make it easier to sell my old heater unit that was removed when I fitted the air con, and save you having to guess where to cut. When I fitted the air con heater box, it had aluminium pipes, so I modified these.

As for the three heater pipes. The one on the back of the head goes to one of the heater pipes. I can't remember off the top of my head which one, but I will check when I get the car back next week.

The two pipes that form the 'Y', both run back to the thermostat housing. One of them connects to the heater, and the other one is the pipe that connects to the expansion tank. It makes no difference which goes where.

I actually modified this metal pipe to keep things tidy. I removed one branch of the 'Y', and blanked it off. I then fitted the piece that was removed about half way down the main length of the pipe. This allowed me to use part of the original E30 hose to connect it up. It basically mimicks the rubber pipe that runs under the inlet manifold on the M20 engine. That's basically what you are aiming for.

Cheers,

Ian.

[buster]

thanks Ian.
When you said you used samco hoses,i actually noticed a blue thing behind your plenum and wondered what it was,now i know

I will order them tomorrow.
We can swap pipes if you want,i will remove them tomorrow,but arent they directly connected to the heater matrix ? also will i have to take the dash out to get them out ?

[Brianmoooore]

I got a bit of extra clearance for the top heater pipe by rotating it through 180 degrees at the flange where it joins the heater, ( the end of the pipe is angled). Had to take it off and cut a little locating slot at the flange, and relieve the hole in the bulkhead slightly.

[Brianmoooore]

,but arent they directly connected to the heater matrix ? also will i have to take the dash out to get them out ?

The pipes join with two bolted flat flanges and 'O' rings behind the trim panel to the right of the glovebox.
Small point, but ther are "construction and use" (or whatever theyre called these days), implications with having heater hoses inside the car.
If a hose split and scalded a passenger, you would be in deep shite.

[ian332isport]

We can swap pipes if you want,i will remove them tomorrow,but arent they directly connected to the heater matrix ? also will i have to take the dash out to get them out ?

Hi Andy,

As Brian said, they are connected at a flange joint that's secured with some small bolts. It can all be removed with the dash in place, but the bolts are quite fiddly to get out.

Ian.

[ian332isport]

Small point, but ther are "construction and use" (or whatever theyre called these days), implications with having heater hoses inside the car.
If a hose split and scalded a passenger, you would be in deep sh*t.

Brian,

The hose is only clamped inside the car. Even if it was to totally fail, it would still only leak inside the engine bay. It still has hard plastic pipe all the way to the bulkhead.

I can see that it could possibly be an issue if you cut the plastic pipe really short, but not a problem if they still run to the bulkhead.

Ian.

[Brianmoooore]

they are connected at a flange joint that's secured with some small bolts. It can all be removed with the dash in place, but the bolts are quite fiddly to get out.

Ian.

Wrap some PVC insulating tape right around the heater side of the flange to keep the small square nuts in place when the bolts are out.

[buster]

ok thanks for the info guys.Im on nights this week now so i think i will attempt this at the weekend.
Good tip there brian
thanks alot

[glenn]

i had to cut an inch or so off the plastic pipes, to allow the rubber pipe to bend earlier, otherwise it would of rubbed the wiring on one of the cam position sensors

[irish320i]

am i ireland have converted my 316 to a 320 m20 a while back when my the 1.6 died hoping to put a 2.5 m50 engine later in the summer would really like to know all the parts ill need before i start neeed to be able to get the car back on the road in a resonable amount of time and bm parts are hard to find in scrappers here so itll take time any help would be great thanx

[Brianmoooore]

Engine, rubber engine mopunts and wiring loom from an E34 M50.
Aluminium engine mounts, exhaust manifold, gear shift linkage and throttle cable from an E36 320 or 325.
Gearbox from either
Propshaft from an E30 325
Diff from an E28 525e
Brake servo from a Mk2 Golf

[jmc330i]

Brake servo from a Mk2 Golf

Just reading what Dave said on this and you need a spacer to fit between the golf servo and E30 master cylinder (if Ive read it right).

Ive just found that the Mk1 Golf servo is a straight swap, except for the hole in the pedal linkage needs drilling a little bit to accept the E30 pin (see 3rd photo below).
The Mk1 1.3 servo looks a bit small and might not give enough assistance but the Mk1 GTi servo looks about the same size as the Mk2 1.3 servo that Dave used, just you dont need the spacer.

Heres all three lined up...


The centre rod is the same length as the E30 rod...


The linkage needs drilling slightly to use the E30 pin cause if you use the Golf pin there is to much slack...


I couldnt find any Mk2 servos when I looked, which is why I tried the Mk1 servos.

[Karan]

hmmm cool.... does that store enough beans for our e30s....

[jmc330i]

Should be ok, Dave said his brakes were fine after he changed to the Mk2 servo.
My thinking is that although the Golf servo has a smaller diameter, its a different shape to the E30 servo. Its wider around the edge so I reckon the volume of them both is about the same. Its very unscientific I know, but have a look at the piccy and you should see what Im getting at.


The Mk1 GTi servo should be the same size as the Mk2 1.3 (according to the guy at the VW/Audi breakers) just a few differences that makes it a straight swap for the E30 servo.

Im looking at using the Mk1 GTi servo for my conversion now Ive got another plenum on the way.
The new plenum is a little damaged on the front section, but Ive got to cut it there anyway so its not a problem. Just a bit of modding on the rear corner so it fits round the smaller servo and jobs a goodun. I hope

[Brianmoooore]

Very interesting set of photos.
I didn't use a Golf servo on my comversion, simply because at the time, although I'd thought of looking out for a smaller servo of the same make, no one had mentioned another servo that would fit, so I didn't think one was available.
Now I'm embarking on an M54 conversion, I'll try a Golf one this time.
Anyone know the registration age range of Mk 1 and Mk 2 Golfs?

[Karan]

i went and put the plenum on my s38...... and it appears that in my final engine position i DO have room for a vacuum servo... in fact almost enough room for the stock one... but im gonna put a golf one on.

big thanks to JMC who's gonna see if he can get his hands on one for me

i was originally gonna use the hydraulic e23 setup which i had fitted... just had to plumb it in.. but gonna keep it vacuum methinks!

happy happy bunny i am!

[teejay]

hi guys,


Has anyone used a 1985 Ljetronic M20B20 E30 for their M50 conversion?

I'm gathering wiring info, but looks like most of the wirings are from the later motronic wirings system

My car doesn't have the engine plug as the post 88' cars had, so does that mean i have to butcher some wires from the current system?

I would like to keep it as factory as possible, i.e. cables and harness from the E34

cheers