200 mph E30 Touring

[Morat]

Here's a stretch...
when BMW made the E30 M3 they altered the rear screen angle and raised the rear deck. Was this to improve stability, reduce drag or both?
Also, did they learn from this exercise and make sure the touring wasn't affected like the normal saloons?

Doubt it since the floor pan of 2door, 4door and touring is the same.

When I say rear deck I actually mean bootlid sorry.

[march109]

Here's a stretch...
when BMW made the E30 M3 they altered the rear screen angle and raised the rear deck. Was this to improve stability, reduce drag or both?
Also, did they learn from this exercise and make sure the touring wasn't affected like the normal saloons?

Doubt it since the floor pan of 2door, 4door and touring is the same.

When I say rear deck I actually mean bootlid sorry.

That they essentialy ripped straight of a VW didn't they? Doubt VW cared about the drag.

[Morat]

I think you're referring to the ultra-rare three door conversions that were done on pre-facelift cars, afaik the official BMW tourings don't have any VW parts.

(image nicked from an earlier thread)

Anyway, my point is that the OP is probably better off attempting this in an E30 M3 shell since the normal saloon shell is known to suffer from turbulence at the rear at silly speeds. Of course, he might be OK in a touring since the back is so different (to both) and BMW will have known about the turbulence for a couple of years before the touring was released.

[march109]

Yes and No, I know the 3 doors directly used them and regular BMW's don't use VW parts or anyother manufacturer AFAIK, but the shape and form is still very very very similar. So similar in fact I doubt that drag came into any part of the design process for the real touring and getting the parts manufactured and car out the door quick as more of a concern before the e36 came along. The touring was after all an after thought to the range so I would expect not have had the same design and tooling budget of the original e30 which would have been man many years in the planning.

[Morat]

Well, the touring came out at the same time as the rest of the facelift range so I'd expect it to be as thoroughly engineered as any other facelift E30. I'd be surprised if they were not put in a windtunnel in 1988, even if it was just to go "OMG nightmare" at the results

[march109]

AFAIK ALL BMW's are put in a wind tunnel but only to simulate normal driving under controlled conditions, I am not sure if any high speed road handling tests are done.

I have seen that 3door touring before too, its Dips' Alpine white the only RHD one produced and its sporting a 3door BBS bodykit.

I agree though of the whole e30 range the touring is the best to use to attempt to crack 200mph.

Someone in either this of the 190mph thread mentioned the norris designes evo, thats an unfair comparrision as they chopped out 4inches from the floor plan making it short wheel base, and lewered the roof line by about 2inches too all for aerodynamics purposes, I doubt 78dude will goto this extent.

Although with a roll cage some serious lightening work could be done, a guy on no-rice.com drills mahussive holes in all the panels even some structural ones to reduce weight in his track dedicated MK1 golf because the roll cage provides the strength, however looks like the original forum has been shut down.

[Morat]

yeah, good point - I can't see them cranking the fans up to 200mph just to see what flies off first

[tomtomtom]

78 dude to give you a bit of encouragement, back in the day my pop's was into cossies and with 420bhp reached 175, but it goes to prove spadge's point that to get the rest takes a lot more power, just about double if you look at that rod tarry car. go for it anyway mate! will be interesting to see!

a mate of mine in greece has some genuine BMW CSL batmobile cars from the 70's and they have chunks of the floorpans cut out and aluminium riveted in place. also as you're not racing this car you could use aluminium for the cage. it was made illegal some time in the 90's for racing but nothing to stop you. and although it sounds like a shit load of effort, chopping the roof a couple of inches could save you a lot of money if you think about it. instead of spending that extra £3000 on power or whatever you might gain 5mph just with a grinder and welder and a few weekends.

oh and a mate of mine HAD to test a vectra at rockingham for top speed, pulling the mirrors in, out of interest made 5mph difference at 140 something.

[ChrisBarns]

Here's a stretch...
when BMW made the E30 M3 they altered the rear screen angle and raised the rear deck. Was this to improve stability, reduce drag or both?

I thought it was to direct air towards the rear spoiler better.

[ShakeyC]

I think its perfectly achievable to reach 200mph in an E30 but how safe or stable it be im not putting my hand up to drive. One thing everyone seems to miss is distance, im sure if you ran at Navada Salts in 600bhp E30 you eventually may get close to 200mph, in the UK best we can hope for is a runway which is about 1.2 -1.5 miles at best of rough surfaces, in which case power and torque needs to be much higher to reach those speeds in such shorter distances. For example Porsches many models claim 200mph+ the only ones i seen do 200mph on a runway have been RUFF tuned 911's and standard 911's barely reached 180 in that distance even though they can do 200mph if distance and conditions allowed.

[Jhonno]

being able to achieve 200mph is one thing..

being able to do it within 2 miles or so as per TofB or similar.. Now thats when the extra power comes in.. There is only limited space to do it in

Not everyone..

Posted that a way up there

[oldroydsr4]

160 to 170 will be easy with 500 bhp

i believe maxfields old man had a gps varified 162mph with 260 odd bhp.

[DHFiS]

What do we think this is going to cost

[Bananaman]

Too technical for me if you've got enough money get on to V.S. motor in Norway,


E36 1/4 mile 7.83 @ 179.76

with that engine and the light weight of an e30 (as most of it has rusted away) your on to a winner.

[oldroydsr4]

alot

[keri-WMS]

Rod Tarrys car is a 2 litre 4 pot?!?! Admittedly it is extensivley modified, but I thought you would need much more displacement (v12 etc) to reach 200mph?

Nyaaa!

There's a chap in the USA who did a salt-flats Mk2 MR2 (blob), entering the forced-induction 1.5L class. He used a de-stroked 1.6 20V Toyota 4-pot engine, with "over 600bhp" on 45psi of boost and averaged 199mph (207 best one-way)!

http://www.bobnorwood.com/The%20Fastest ... 20Utah.htm

Everything on the site is "inspirational" like this supercharged 1400bhp Ferrari!

[DHFiS]

Aero is going to need lots of work IMO.

[78dude]

Some guys at the Norwegian BMW forum found this drag number for me regarding: C`d (Drag coefficient) BMW E30

/87 (86/87-models): 318 = 0,37 320i + 325i = 038
2/87 (facelift): 324d = 0,36 324td = 0,37
1/90 (touring): 318i/320i = 0,36 325i = 0,35 325ix + 324td =0,37

From AMS
316i + 318is = 0,35 (0,65)
318i+318i Cabrio = 0,37 (0,69)
320is M-tech II = 0,34 (0,63)
(all facelift)
M3 = (0,62)
318 + 320i + 323i = (0,73)
(all 83-85)
325i = (0,69)
(1986/87)
Alpina B3 2,7 =(0,68)
(facelift)

[tomtomtom]

varies a lot then, whats the big difference between a iS and a normal 318 or 320 or 323i? surely the bumpers dont make that much diff? 0.35/0.73? i'm not that knowledgable so tell me if there's lots of differences...

[78dude]

I dont think so, but like you see on the 4 pots, they have smaller wheels than the 6 pot cars so thats makes a small efect. The M-Tech styling kit do also its job a little something you can see that an E30 with an M-Tech II styling have nearly the same numbers as an M3. The Vauxhall Calibra who was the best aerodynamic car for it days had a Cd value of 0.25 compeer to the M3 E30 who had 0,33

[Gunni]

Hamann cracked 300kmh back in ´88 with a E30 m3 fitted with a 745i turbo engine, making around 500hp then.
So expect 700-800hp as a minimum.

ligthness is key to the accelaration otherwise you´ll need a REAL long straight.

[fuzzy]

theres only 1 cosworth in the uk that has cracked the 200mph mark. theres 3 or 4 more that have hit the mid to high 190's. none have had less than 700bhp and im sure someone posted a while back than an e30 was very similar in aerodynamics and drag to a cosworth.
big bucks with lots of expensive trial and error needed to hit the 200mph barrier.

[DRIFTBOY]

I'm sure many of you might already know about this but ....

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/36223 ... rolla.html

[78dude]

First of all, this project will goes in steps for many reason like cash, like knoweldge, like testing out, like work out and try diffrent things (suspension, engine and aerodynamic)
Power these days is not a problem, in worst case I can use a power plant form another manufactor but that makes a bit of the point with this go away.

What I need is an E30 Touring because it give less drag than a E30 Saloon or Coupe....
I need a very stiff and upgraded suspension because of two reasons. When you go over 130 mph you start to get wibbrations and the air will also start to grab the car like a plane and want it to fly.
I need a very good spoiler kit for the front because I need downforce and I need all the 4 wheels to still be on the ground when the car is doing 160mph +
I need to also have very good brakes who can do its work to brake down a 900/1000kg car from 200mph

I need also a 6 speed manual gearbox because of the hi speed I will try to achive and also an engine who is over 500 bhp ( maybe instead use an S32 or an S38 engine instead of the V8 )
When it comes to suspension, I need to lower the car of at least 60mm and fit 17`inch wheels on it
For this year, I will not make any promise of an 200mph E30, this will be a long drifting project!

But for the end, I do hope that this year, I will beat the 161 mph mark one M3 had here on the zone...

[Morat]

78dude, if you are committed to this project then I take my hat off to you. It would be a real coup for the E30 to have a 200mph example, even if it has an engine transplant. Good luck, and may I suggest a really serious rollcage as your first investment.

[ShakeyC]

Overall shape of the body in terms of drag, i know of few cars with 3 or more times the drag c/o of an E30 but they also generate 1.5x more down force at speed and dynamic balance at high speed is more important than static balance regards to safety. Weight has less bearing than many assume in the first 60-100ft you see a noticable difference from a heavy car to a light one in initially, after that a fast car will be travelling fast enough generating its own downforce. For example a 12st man sitting on top of the bonnet another on the boot past 100mph in an average saloon with c/o of .65 which gets heavier as speed rises.

Over stiff suspension at high speed causes bad handling affects is better to have better spec coilovers which you can adjust with enough range both damping and rebound rates to get the best stabilty at high speed and in braking.

The key is in the gearing and diff ratios to get 200mph within a given distance if you have the power to pull to limiter in its highest gear.

[keri-WMS]

What about running twin-charged? A roots/screw supercharger to do the low revs allows a much bigger turbo to be used at the top-end...

Bigger turbos are or course more efficient (once they spool up), the other option would be Nos as an anti-lag system.

Also you could run it on that 85% Bio Ethanol stuff that's still called "petrol", but is very high octane allowing higher boost before encountering detonation, also making it a "green" car...

[RodentRacing]

Overall shape of the body in terms of drag, i know of few cars with 3 or more times the drag c/o of an E30 but they also generate 1.5x more down force at speed

Pray tell what are these cars you speak of?

...a fast car will be travelling fast enough generating its own downforce. For example a 12st man sitting on top of the bonnet another on the boot past 100mph in an average saloon with c/o of .65 which gets heavier as speed rises.

Do you have any references to cite to back up this claim?

[H35-IAN]

sum of the best e30s ive ever seen have come from sweden!! i know you will do it ever heard of the kylander ? vs motors ? maybe go have a chat to vs im sure they would be willing to point you in the right direction the best m5 in the world in my eyes was built by them e34 spins up in 6th if driven mentally in enough with circa 1200 bhp mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
if you want any help sourcing anything drop me a pm thanks ian.

[Karan]

after reading many a post like this on skyline gtr forums and others.... your biggest problem will be building such a powerful charged engine that will be able to do a high speed pull which means being on full load for a long long time!!!

[ShakeyC]

Overall shape of the body in terms of drag, i know of few cars with 3 or more times the drag c/o of an E30 but they also generate 1.5x more down force at speed

Pray tell what are these cars you speak of?

...a fast car will be travelling fast enough generating its own downforce. For example a 12st man sitting on top of the bonnet another on the boot past 100mph in an average saloon with c/o of .65 which gets heavier as speed rises.

Do you have any references to cite to back up this claim?

If you do the maths which can be found in most books on Fluid Dymanics and Auto Aerodynamics will explain the maths then its simply a case of converting the figures into mass to weight of your desired imperial or metric fancy. Its not a claim its fact.

Be careful what the C/O is expressed as C/D, C/W, C/X all give different numbers and mean different things, in the UK C/O is often reffered to the average of all equations giving a more complete number to work with.

A brick is more aerodynamic than an E30 - fact

Karan - very true one thing making 600bhp+ but holding it at that power level for 15 seconds is a lifetime of mechanical stress and wear. Is a very fine balancing act of everything to break 200mph within a given distance.

[Karan]

what you need is as big capacity engine you can get


something like a viper v10 or really big v8 would be best i think

[keri-WMS]

Go for the crate option if you want cheap low-stress non-BWM power (in a straight line)!

http://enginefactory.com/572750hp.htm - £7,700+shipping/tax = 750bhp / 775ft/lb 9.4L naturally aspirated, brand new turnkey engine!

Adding 5.5psi of "lazy" boost takes you over 1,000bhp (simplistically) with 1 or 4 truck turbos for the added welly if you need it, should be fine on standard compression....?

[Karan]

http://www.britishamericanengines.co.uk ... es/ls7.asp

ls7... if it gets the corvette to 198.... a bit of boost should see an e30 past 200 reasonably reliably i reckon

[RodentRacing]

If you do the maths which can be found in most books on Fluid Dymanics and Auto Aerodynamics will explain the maths then its simply a case of converting the figures into mass to weight of your desired imperial or metric fancy. Its not a claim its fact.

So its a fact that a "fast car travelling fast enough" will create downforce is it?

Be careful what the C/O is expressed as C/D, C/W, C/X all give different numbers and mean different things, in the UK C/O is often reffered to the average of all equations giving a more complete number to work with.

Is that so? What do all these different things mean? Are there equations for them?

A brick is more aerodynamic than an E30 - fact

Any numbers to back this up? Its seems unlikely.

I'm still interested to know what cars have 3x the drag coefficient of an e30.