Real Hartge Conversion??? 323i - 327?

[tommtb]

Hi everyone, Im looking at buying an E30 323i ive seen for sale as converted by Hartge/somebody to a Hartge 327. The pictures show different exhaust, body, wheels, rocker cover and manifolds, but all this could be added to any car im guessing...

Ive asked Birds and their records dont go back that far, its red and on a vehicle check comes up as clean etc, and as the 323 in red from the right year.

Pretty sure there is no way of telling the engine credibility from the outside? Would it have been a full engine out new engine in job or did they just change some parts to make it a 2.7 etc?

If so would the original engine number still be there and where is it?

Any suggestions on how to track it down would be appreciated

Cheers, Tom.

[daimlerman]

On the block,just forward of number one spark plug there is a small flat area that is marked '2.5/2.7' on the 84mm bore block.This will confirm the bore.To check the stroke,you are down to poking somthing down a plug hole which will not be very accurate as the difference between a 2.5 and a 2.7 is very small.A 2.7 should pull cleanly,in 5th,on a light throttle from 1000rpm. From 2000rpm you should find it a lot more interesting... As this car started life as a 323,it could have been stroked up to 2.5 using the eta or diesel crank.

[tommtb]

ok cheers thats a good bit of help, now the main problem is ive never looked in the engine bay of an E30 so which is plug number one? I doubt ill be able to poke something down a plug hole when i go to view the car though, but checking the bore will work. So it should say "2.5/2.7" if its the real deal? I can check the pull in 5th thats a good plan too cheers. The guy selling it has quite a collection so if im able to get him to take me out in one of his other E30s with a smaller engine this could also help right?

Cheers for the help, Tom.

[daimlerman]

Number one plug is the one closest to the radiator...another check is the ECU,mounted under the dash on the driver's side.A 2.7 will need an aftermarket chip of some kind,you may spot a sticker on the case or a mark of somekind on the chip it's self. My homebuilt 2.7 pulls well in top,I do not need to drop a gear to overtake at main road speeds,just plant my right foot and hang on....

[tommtb]

Ok is the ecu visible without taking anything off then?

Im sounding really brain dead now but ive never looked under the bonnet of one of these or any 6 cylinder actually...so as i look from the drivers side into the engine bay is that where the plugs are? and that would make number one on the right hand side near the radiator?

Guessing there would be a hartge sticker on the ecu maybe?

What sort of power do 2.7s put out, ive seen around 200bhp?

Even if its still a 2.3 it has everything hartge would put on other than the enigine so it still looks awesome lol

Cheers for the help so far mate i owe you a pint

[daimlerman]

There is a panel held by three plastic screws(quarter turn anticlock to release)over your knees,the ECU lives on the R/H side and a standard one will have a Boch code.I would expect one that Hartge have played with to be marked.You have the plug location sussed,on the same side of the engine,is the exhaust manifold cast iron or a sexy curved stainless steel item?Where do the plug leads go? Alpina claimed 237bhp for their 2.7,not sure about the Hartge figures.What engine size is marked on the V5? Once again,a genuine Hartge would have been corrected,a 'replica' most likely not.I feel it is important to make certain you are looking at a 'proper' Hartge if the seller is asking 'proper' money.Remember anyone can buy the badges and wheels....

[HartgeH27]

Hi everyone, Im looking at buying an E30 323i ive seen for sale as converted by Hartge/somebody to a Hartge 327. The pictures show different exhaust, body, wheels, rocker cover and manifolds, but all this could be added to any car im guessing...

Ive asked Birds and their records dont go back that far, its red and on a vehicle check comes up as clean etc, and as the 323 in red from the right year.

Pretty sure there is no way of telling the engine credibility from the outside? Would it have been a full engine out new engine in job or did they just change some parts to make it a 2.7 etc?

If so would the original engine number still be there and where is it?

Any suggestions on how to track it down would be appreciated

Cheers, Tom.

Tom,

Is this in the Sussex area ?

Hartge 2.7 good for 205bhp stock from Birds, tad more if tweaked or the Sport version.

I have seen a red 'Hartge' in and out of various auctions/private sellers for around 5 years now, lives down on the south coast.

[HartgeH27]

Number one plug is the one closest to the radiator...another check is the ECU,mounted under the dash on the driver's side.A 2.7 will need an aftermarket chip of some kind,you may spot a sticker on the case or a mark of somekind on the chip it's self. My homebuilt 2.7 pulls well in top,I do not need to drop a gear to overtake at main road speeds,just plant my right foot and hang on....

Superchips was the chip supplier but they didnt normally mark the external casing of the ECU. If Tom could take a look inside it is clearly marked 'Superchip' 2.7

[tommtb]

It is a red one yeah but not on the south coast, its just north of london...Its deffinately more than a badge and wheels, its actually been debadged lol

the manifold is the 6 branch one, all the visible hartge bits seem to be there even the strut brace and rocker cover, it also has a dog leg gearbox.

As for the V5 i havent been to see the car yet so havent had access to it, is there a hartge plaque or badge on the chasis or somewhere?

I might be able to check the inside of the ecu when i view the car if the bloke is very understanding and helpful lol. He has started restoring it by getting the rocker cover and inlet manifold powder coated and has a few E30s so its not like im buying it off a suspicious seller. But deffinately right to make sure.

Also any ideas of potential insurance groups? Guessing its best to go with Adrian Flux or someone like that who understands conversions...

Cheers

[HartgeH27]

No plaque or engine stamp.

Only Hartge.de (ie German factory build) had the block stamped with 'Hartge', Birds the UK concessionaire for Hartge conversions did not stamp the block.

Real hard to confirm a genuine H23/H26/H27 but hopefully the history will help out.

Check for the thicker ARBs, full stainless, Billy sports and also the springs were stamped up with the Hartge logo.

Optional on bodykit for any variant but cockpit dials (above ashtray), 180mph speedo and the obvious visible bits like steering wheel, gearknob, pedals.

HTH

Iain

[tommtb]

Kool all good tips cheers, did you mean full stainless hartge exhaust or stainless something else?

Ive spoken to a guy a birds and he said it couldve been sent to the factory to have the conversion done way back when so would they stamp the block? If so any clues as to where?

Also a basic tip about rust spots...from what ive seen i need to check the wings especially around any bodykit, under the arches and check out the petrol cap as well as is possible?

As long as its a 2.7 i dont mind if it was a full blown birds/factory conversion, just want to get it back to full glory as a really kool, individual looking E30. Ill worry about pedigree when i can get myself an M3 or something rarer

[tailoutcharlie]

theres a buying guide on here by placey which will have all you need to know its a sticy at the top of one of the pages.

good luck fella

[HartgeH27]

Kool all good tips cheers, did you mean full stainless hartge exhaust or stainless something else?


As long as its a 2.7 i dont mind if it was a full blown birds/factory conversion, just want to get it back to full glory as a really kool, individual looking E30. Ill worry about pedigree when i can get myself an M3 or something rarer

Yep full stainless exhaust - quite unique and btw Tom if this is a H27 then its rarer than MOST M3s.....................

[tommtb]

ahh sweet, well he has said its got a full hartge exhaust including the manifolds...its sort of a horizontal oval shap on the pics if that makes any sense?

When is it considered an H27, if it was converted at birds/factory done? because some1 said that conversion kits were sold by birds to garages and done from there...not an H27 if thats the case?

Cheers

[hammoj28]

Think iv seen an ad for this one. Looked quite interesting.

[hartgefan]

i could be wrong here but im sure the h27 was based on the 325,h23,h26 cars were based on the 323,h26 could be 325 too ,if im right then this cant be a h27.

[HartgeH27]

Agree but lets wait and see what Tom finds out !!

[tommtb]

Oh right ok, so it might be an H23 or H26 then? In that case if its an H23/6 likely to be a 23 what are they like lol?

Are they all 6 cylinder? Im guessing the 23 would be less power but also less weight?

Im not too bothered if it would be classed as an official "H" car as im not buying it as an investment or especially because of the Hartge things, just because it looks like a very individual E30, all im arsed about is getting myself a fairly quick E30 because theyre awesome.

Cheers again every1

[hartgefan]

h23 had 170 bhp h26 same car just capacity increase to 190 bhp,no saving in weight but both well worth having,could be a full conversion or just an engine kit as unlike alpina,hartge would sell you an engine kit alone.
if its a full conversion it could have lots of nice parts like 40% lock up diffs etc,go get it boy!

[tommtb]

ok kool well yeah either would be awesome by the sound of it, what sort of performance are you likely to get from an H23?

What was involved in just an engine kit conversion then? Sorry for all the questions...probably been asked before, but it is really interesting.

Cheers for the help. Ill try my best to get it.

[Cabrio]

The car is in North London it is a 2.3 with a full Hartge bodykit flared into the body...head and inlet has been ported etc...full exhaust, wheels, rocker box, strut brace etc.

Very quick car originally from the Midlands and although an 83 car this conversion would have been done about 85...can post a picture if work out this bucket stuff

Cheers

[hartgefan]

no problem thats what this forum is for,to help one another.engine mods were forged pistons to raise the compression,hot camshaft,flowed head,fancy manifold and exhaust and that lovely cast alloy cam cover,not sure about performance maybe ian could help with that,but id guess at 325I performance ie 7.5 to sixty and 130+ top end.

[tommtb]

ok perfect answers cheers

sounds great to me, hopefully ill get to see it and buy it, only problem is it has no history with it so will this hamper me selling it on when i come to it? i would only want my money back not in for a profit or anything

well im driving a peugeot 309 gti with an Mi16 conversion so i think thats running around 7 to 60 with bad driving on my half...so it would compare nicely and be a load nicer to own and drive probably lol.

just out of interest what the 0-60 on a 325i Sport because that was my other possibility. Cheers

[tommtb]

Are there any tips to check if it has had all the engine work done that you would associate with an H23?

It seems to have all of the rest of the important bits and cosmetic bits, including a dogleg box, so it sounds authentic...to a rookie

Im not questioning the seller, just that the history is not there so its other owners before that couldve been dodgy.

Cheers