More help required from experienced track guys

[M5pilot]

When I went to silverstone I lost a bit of confidence in my car.

I was thrown in at the deep end with a very slipery track and very hard compound road tyres so its not entirely the cars fault - i just cant drive anyway!

I felt my suspension was actually quite good given the conditions and also the brakes are the best ive ever had on an E30.

Question is - shall I get some roll bars aswell? My roll bars are tired and the bushes are shot anyway.

Im not changing the new cup kit suspesion because its also used on the roads heavily and I need some sort of compliance which is gives.

The rest of the car is all sorted now as you may have seen from other threads.

I also felt I was beingt over cautious at silverstone and was probably one of the few people who didnt spin. Will driving harder just come with time?

[Brian28]

I think, without wanting to state the obvious, that there is no point trying to cure a problem until you know that there is a problem? If the bushes are shot they will need to be changed anyway, then see how the car is on a dry track when your confidence is up and you can push a bit harder. At the moment because of the track conditions you won't really know whether the car tends towards understeer or oversteer when being pushed, whether the front, rear or niether are too hard or too soft, if you slap loads of new bits on the car will be different, but you won't know whether its better or worse as you have no base settings to work from. Solverstone - I raced a bike there in the wet the weekend after they had a historic car meeting where they p*ssed oil and all kinds of goo over the track - its not nicknamed Slitherstone for nothing!

On the driving harder with time - you will prob surprise yourself on a dry track. Also, most people wouldn't choose winter for their first track day, its likely that most of the other guys there would have known the track which would make them faster straight away. In the dry you can drive (within reason) off line and still be quick on a track day, in the wet you really need to know where you are going to be smooth and quick. Try and analyse a bit about how/where you felt you were slow - tighter corners, fast corners, entry, exit etc, this will at least give you something to work from.

Cheers
Brian

[JCB]

driving off line sucks !!! lots of dirt, grass and loads of rubber marbles. it sounds like a hail storm when you are in a stripped out car and have no sound proofing !!!. but when you are E30 on a lotus elise track day you spend most of the time off line as they are all faster on the twisty bits !!!

[M5pilot]

I just hope its dry next time I go out.

All my bushes are Poly except the ARB ones and as stated they look a bit worn so will change them on their own.

My tyres are quite grippy for road tyres.

I guess I was very nervous in the wet - if it was dry it would have been a differenct story.

I found the E30 to be quite understeery round really tight bends.

[Ceeman]

Just buy my car Sal, it's all sorted!!

To be honest, it takes a while to get to know the circuit, i don't know which one you were doing but the GP is the biggest and fastest. I find that in the dry mine will tend to understeer...........there is not enough feel and steering precision in an old E30, maybe the M3 is better but my setup is really just for fun.

I did a day at Silverstone in December, there was a heavy frost in the morning and they wouldn't open the track until 11am when they felt it was safe. It was very unpredictable because some parts were in the sun and others shaded, it was a very interesting day, people spinning all over the place and one even ended up on his roof!! I spun once, trying to do a power slide at a corner where i had seen a Ferrari race car do it earlier was a stupid idea when the grip levels are not constant and i wasn't good enough either!!

As for driving in the wet, you need to take an 'off line' approach, but to do this you need to know the correct line in the first place. I had a demonstration of this by my instructor and the difference was really noticable. I strongly recommend you get some tuition.

All this talk gives me the itch to get out there..

[JCB]

i noticed the understeer on the really tight bends at silverstone . well actually my forearms noticed it the day before - how i wish i had power steering !!

[M5pilot]

I drove my friends Alpina C2 round there aswell and the understeer in that was horrendous. I came back after 2 very scary laps! I'm sure it was his tyres were not good for that day (Eagle F1's front)

[Davenotouring]

If you are getting horrendous understeer, you are going too fast into the corners!! Simple!

Smoothness is the key in most cases!

[JCB]

only tryin to keep up with the elises !!!!

[Davenotouring]

True, but they handle better than pretty much everything in the right hands! So there's no point trying to go as fast round the bends!

[JCB]

gives me something to aspire to - follow and elise and watch the lines and then go onto the bloody grass cause an E30 cant keep up !!!

[M5pilot]

If you are getting horrendous understeer, you are going too fast into the corners!! Simple!

Smoothness is the key in most cases!

Its worse than you can imagine.

I experimented when I had a clear piece of track. Going round bend really really slow (20mph) it just wouldnt steer. Apply even the minute amont of power and it would scrub front tyres and go straight. I went round much slower than my touring and it was alot worse.

Never again will I use Eagle F1's!

The owner went out for instruction and the instructor bought the car back in after it spun. He also said it has no grip and to get better tyres. he wasnt shocked when he was told they were Eagle F1's.

[JimmyC]

Could be tyre pressure as much as anything else

Its worse than you can imagine.

I experimented when I had a clear piece of track. Going round bend really really slow (20mph) it just wouldnt steer. Apply even the minute amont of power and it would scrub front tyres and go straight. I went round much slower than my touring and it was alot worse.

Never again will I use Eagle F1's!

The owner went out for instruction and the instructor bought the car back in after it spun. He also said it has no grip and to get better tyres. he wasnt shocked when he was told they were Eagle F1's.

[M5pilot]

Checked those - tried 3 different tyre pressures, 32psi gave best grip which wasnt alot.

[Jon_Bmw]

Checked those - tried 3 different tyre pressures, 32psi gave best grip which wasnt alot.

But doesn't the pressure alter when you warm them up? As in its much harder to get an accurate reading of tyre pressure when they are hot. I was always brought up not to piss abuot with tyre pressure when the tyres are hot.

On a different note, I have always found eagle F1's to be a very good road tyre, beaton only by the likes of michelin pilot sport premacy tyres. Didn't have some shit on them did you?

[agent006]

Do the obvious stuff first. Tracking/alignment could be shagged and would give understeer. My 325 on Crappo HedgeFinder XL tyres doesn't understeer at all on track unless you're being really silly. I would wager that your lowering has fudged the suspension geometry and you're not getting the whole tyre in good contact with the ground.

[JimmyC]

But doesn't the pressure alter when you warm them up? As in its much harder to get an accurate reading of tyre pressure when they are hot. I was always brought up not to piss abuot with tyre pressure when the tyres are hot.

Tyre pressures are key, a perfectly set car will handle like poop if the tyre pressures are wrong. Rock hard at front and soft at back will give you manic understeer for example. Its the same principle as not mixing tyres.

Its the hot pressure your aiming for- cold pressure means nothing as the amount it changes/increases etc depends on circuit/conditions etc and you also need to take into acount temp across the hole surface, you aiming for an even temp- to hard usually means too hot in the centre, to soft at the edges.

......I think

[M5pilot]

I think maybe the problem could have been the Eagle's at the front and Falken Ze512's at the back. The Falkens seem to have much more grip in the wet and the dry. I know this because the previous fronts were Falken's aswell and when going to th Eagle's there was more understeer on the roads aswell.

The fact that the rears had more grip could cause the car to run wide. Remember also that the rears are 225's vs the fronts which are 205's on 16" Alpinas.

[Davenotouring]

Sounds very odd....

Something definately not right there. No doubt the tyres were cold, but road tyres shouldn't need the warming up which racing tyres do.

[M5pilot]

Spoke to some M5 guys who have used them - Eagle F1's no good.

[Simon13]

thats bollocks about F1's they are a brilliant tyre, wet or dry, and won't let u down on the odd track day

God u talk some Sal sometimes

[agent006]

thats bollocks about F1's they are a brilliant tyre

Wouldn't put it like that, but yes, i think saying tyres are the problem is just an easy answer that's masking a setup problem. My 325 is on really really shit tyres and i don't get a hint of understeer.

[Taffy]

I'd recommend tuition, alot of understeer can be corrected with the throttle.