Good Launches

[stevetigger]

You might get a pleasent suprise!! My 83 323i kept up with um!!

[Rich_W]

Somewhere around the 4500 mark, then lift off the clutch sharpish, then feather the throttle to stop the wheels from spinning up too much. But you dont want them to bog down and kill the revs.

Its much more of an art in RWD compared to FWD. So you'll just have to practice a lot.

[m-dtech]

its no use on a launch !

double clutching is not for a modern car

[Turbo-Brown]

"Double clutching" or "double de-clutching" as ee british call it is used to change gear with a crash gearbox. It's of fuck all use when you've got syncromesh which all modern cars have, and by modern I mean made from the early 70's onwards.

Dumped clutch starts are great for attracting the attention of the law.

Loow at a graph showing the relationship between surface speed and friction. This will tell you what you need to do:

Start off with your 4500rpm and let the clutch up so you start to accelerate pretty quickly. Keep the revs steady by using the clutch pedal! This will mean that once the car starts moving, you'll need to press the pedal down a bit believe it or not.

It avoids wheelspin and engine bogging

[gareth]

double de-clutching is still very useful during high speed braking/downshifting as it matches the speed of the internal gearbox components and allows the gearbox itself to shift faster and with less strain on the synchromesh. that said, it takes a lot of practice to actually do it anywhere near as quick. i've been driving mk1/2 escorts (normally with worn synchromesh) and anglias etc since passing my test so it's second nature to me.

going up the box is a lot easier on everything and is really not worth the effort.

[billgatese30]

i think turbo brown was refering to double de clutching on the up shift as like he says, it has no real use.

where as doing it on the down shift really helps, when braking very hard

a: smooth the gear changes out

b: helps to prevent the rear wheels from locking up casuing due to the quick change in speed

[astondg]

i think turbo brown was refering to double de clutching on the up shift as like he says, it has no real use.

where as doing it on the down shift really helps, when braking very hard

a: smooth the gear changes out

b: helps to prevent the rear wheels from locking up casuing due to the quick change in speed

You can get the same effects by just rev matching (using heel & toe) without a proper double de-clutch. I think rev matching is very important for the reasons you mentioned but these days double de-clutching isn't quite as important as it used to be. I asked a performance driving instructor who double de-clutches himself what he thought and he said he wouldn't tell anyone to double de-clutch anymore but they should learn to rev match.

Aston

[Zayyan]

Having a play tonight there was no difference between revving to 3,000rpm, the "start point" (on a 4-pot at least) then letting out the clutch halfway before accelerating more to keep the revs constant and relasing the clutch, and revving to 4,500 as Rich said, and I presume it saves clutch too.

Though as Aston says rev maching when changing gear is important.

All I can suggest is that you find an empty road and have a mess around and see what's best for you.

With a small amout of practise you'll beat the Ford shite without a problem

[Toby_Unna]

double de-clutching is still very useful during high speed braking/downshifting as it matches the speed of the internal gearbox components and allows the gearbox itself to shift faster and with less strain on the synchromesh. that said, it takes a lot of practice to actually do it anywhere near as quick. i've been driving mk1/2 escorts (normally with worn synchromesh) and anglias etc since passing my test so it's second nature to me.

going up the box is a lot easier on everything and is really not worth the effort.

as astondg says

double clutching means two presses of the clutch per shift with a blip of the throttle with clutch up while the box is in neutral.

you don't need to do this on a synchromesh box. heel and toeing is a good skill to learn though.l

[astondg]

well i dont even really know what double de clutching is? Tis why i asked. Just remember off fast and furious when vin said "granny shifting , not double clutchin like you should", wondered what he meant

Do not believe anything you hear or see in Fast and Furious. They were drag racing and while it is possible to double de-clutch on an upchange nobody does that now with synchromesh and definately not in drag racing, with that type of drag racing in real life most of them would probably not even lift off the throttle (flat change) and with some gearboxes they might not even use the clutch at all.

I would not recommend flat changing in your car though because it is bad for your drivetrain and engine unless your engine management system is made to do that (cuts throttle on upshift for you). It seems most of the street racer people and the people I think you call chavs do the full throttle up change becuase it makes the wheels spin and they seem to think that is cool and makes them better drivers, it does not.

Mostly double de-clutching is for down changes and these days not necessary at all but:
1. Imagine you are in 4th gear and slowing down.
2. Push clutch pedal to the floor (or past the grab point anyway).
3. Push gear lever into neutral.
4. Release clutch pedal (this can be done very quickly).
5. Blip throttle to get rpm up to what they will be in 3rd, probably about 1000rpm more than what they were in 4th (you might actually go a little bit further becuase they will fall slightly before you can get into the next gear).
6. Push clutch pedal to the floor (or past the grab point anyway).
7. Push gear lever into 3rd.
8. Release clutch pedal like a normal down change (you should actually be able to release it a little bit quicker because the engine and drivetrain speeds are matched now).

For just rev matching (which is all that is needed today) leave out steps 3, 4 and 6.

For up changes step 5 is not a throttle blip, instead you have to wait for the rpm to drop to what it will be in the next gear.

Aston

[Turbo-Brown]

I've got an ECU with a Full Throttle Gearshift function. I asked the makers about it and they said they'd recommend against using it in a road car as it still puts quite large strains into the drivetrain.

[Bob_S]

i found launching at about 4275rpm you got a nice good hard launch without leaving too much rubber on the road and plumes of smoke generally the grip will come back if you shut and open the thottle slightly

[RustyRuss]

Nice looking 323i

[johnl320]

The Foden recovery trucks at work are 8 gear crash boxes ,not a syncromesh in sight .They even have whats called a clutch brake so when you press the clutch pedal it slows the lay shaft down so you can slam it into the next gear. The problem is that every truck is different ,you get used to driving one and then jump into another and its totally different . you start playing tunes with gears and every b*st*rd takes the p*ss!!

john

[m-dtech]

double de-clutching is still very useful during high speed braking/downshifting as it matches the speed of the internal gearbox components and allows the gearbox itself to shift faster and with less strain on the synchromesh. that said, it takes a lot of practice to actually do it anywhere near as quick. i've been driving mk1/2 escorts (normally with worn synchromesh) and anglias etc since passing my test so it's second nature to me.

going up the box is a lot easier on everything and is really not worth the effort.

is this not heel & toe method ? slightley different to double de clutching

[Rich_W]

Double de clutching - Pointless in a modern car.

Mostly double de-clutching is for down changes and these days not necessary at all but:
1. Imagine you are in 4th gear and slowing down.
2. Push clutch pedal to the floor (or past the grab point anyway).
3. Push gear lever into neutral.
4. Release clutch pedal (this can be done very quickly).
5. Blip throttle to get rpm up to what they will be in 3rd, probably about 1000rpm more than what they were in 4th (you might actually go a little bit further becuase they will fall slightly before you can get into the next gear).
6. Push clutch pedal to the floor (or past the grab point anyway).
7. Push gear lever into 3rd.
8. Release clutch pedal like a normal down change (you should actually be able to release it a little bit quicker because the engine and drivetrain speeds are matched now).

Heel n Toe is virtually the same. But

1. Imagine you are in 4th gear and slowing down.
2. Push clutch pedal to the floor
3a. Brake and with your little toe of your right foot. "Blip" the throttle
3b. At the same time change into 3rd
4. Release clutch pedal.
5. Either carry on breaking or if your through the corner get on the Gas.

The hardest part is maintaining constant brake pressure. When you're learning you'll end up stamping the brakes more as you do the blip. Its not easy to get it smooth, but once you do. You'll be easier on Clutches/gearboxes and FASTER. I would say actually to learn it at slightly higher speeds than lower. As under 20 mph or so. Its much harder to gauge the blip.

I recommend anyone who enjoys driving to learn it. The only downside is that all your trainers will end up with a black mark over your right foot little toe

[nav786]

how do ya brake with your right foot little toe? do you mean big toe.

i have been practsing heel and toe for about two months and have now got the hang of it. i use my right foot to brake and the side of my foot to blip the throttle.

[Turbo-Brown]

Think the heel and toe bit is down to what works for you.

I use the ball of my foot to brake with (as normal) and swing the right hand side of my foot across to get the gas pedal. Works for my size 12 feet

[oze30]

There's no hard and fast method to heel/toing. Some people can use the side of their foot ( Like in a WRX) or actually use the toes on the brakes and heel on the gas. Try this. Sit at your computer. Put the outside of your foot on the ground (Pronate your foot) Then lift your heel off the ground and place back down again. This is the similar action to heel and toe. The other way ( one of many) is to do similar, but put your whole fore foot ( Ball of the foot to the toes) on the ground, then push your heel to the ground. Great if you can get it to work, braking is smoother and more fluid. Downside.. When your learning, as Rich said.. it can look silly as you try to brake (using too much pressure on the brake) and then gassing it to match the revs, ( and it kinda roo hops down the road) I suggest NOT doing this at night as the cops will think your pissed and can't drive, but go to an industrial estate during the weekend.

I had a book by Frank Gardner, signed by Alan Jones, Jim richards and Tony Longhurst ( Australian touring car driving legends) that had a great description of this technique. My parents got this for me when they went to a driver training course for the E34 M5 (1st model at the BMW driver training ground in QLD Parents freaked out when driving in the M5 with Alan Jones, drifting it sideways with one hand, talking casually to the people in the back .."this car handles magnificently!!"

[astondg]

I mostly use the toes of my right foot on the brake and right side of my right foot on the throttle but like people have said it is up to each person and the car they drive. The E30's pedals are reasonably close together which is good but, in RHD form anyway, my bake pedal sinks very low, especially under hard braking, so it can be a bit difficult to blip the throttle and sometimes I the side of my foot catches the side of the throttle while I am braking hard so I am trying to brake with the throttle on which can get a it exciting on the race track .

I should have mentioned it early but as you can probably see rev matching and heel & toe are kind of 2 seperate things, rev matching is what makes the changes smooth and heel & toe allows you to perform rev matching while you are braking.

Aston