building E30 328 24v-turbo or 335i 12v holset turbo

[twist]

hi im quite new to the forum, after seeing some youtube vids i want a mental bmw for scrapyard parts money for my weekend abuser. always wanted the e30+325 mtech kit with:

will the [m30] 3.5L 12 v engine fit in any e30 shell [is the 316 smaller than the 320+ ?] WITH ROOM for added holset hx40 turbo, intercoooler, megasquirt ecu, and what power can i expect at what boost?

or should i fit the 2.8 24v e36 motor and do the same?

costs, pro's and con's ?


i was also thinking about the 4.4L v8 or the 5.0 v12 with this setup. what about space in the engine bay?

what costs are the 3.6 and 3.8L 24v m5 engines + g'box?
what are costs for 3.0 and 3.2L e36 engines+ g'box?

should i use a 5 series instead for bigger engine bay space, and how much weight kg would i save over using an e30 3series the same age 5 series?

sure this has been asked much but any specific replys appreciated

[twist]

i should add i don't mind fitting ARP2000 bolts for con-rods, head suds and ACL bearings, metal head gasket etc small money parts, but unless using an m3 or m5 engine dont want to spend on forged conrods/pistons/crank.

[Jonsku]

Yes you can fit M30 in there, baby HX40 fits no problems, HX60 fits also with some hammering

If, and when, you're aiming at high horsepower (+750hp) then your budget should be +10k€, 20k€ if you want the whole car to handle the power. 400-500hp comes pretty easily and with standard internals etc = much cheaper. Good engine management is the most important and costiest thing.

V8 and V12 have also be fitted in E30 bay, also V8 with supercharger and V12 with supercharger or twin turbochargers.

Best option would be to buy a crashed (but working) E34 M5 so you'd get all the parts you need (including rear axle & diff if going for Big Power).

There's no space problems in E30 bay, it all has been done before many times.. Just check www.pure-pf.com / forum / projekt so you get the idea what can be done

[Gunni]

How much hp do you want ????????????????????????

That will allow actual answers to be presented.

[Jhonno]

You ain't gonna drop an S38/S50 in for scrap yard parts money that's for sure

An M52 or M30 swap could be done however

[DRIFTBOY]

If I started again on a tight budget I would buy a 325i (M20 12 valve) and turbocharge that!

People have had some quite amazing results from those!

[twist]

400rwhp would be suffiecient, of course 800rwhp [then m5 I6] would be great. my skyline is my daily driver, so i want a project thrash-about for under £2-3000

btw, didnt know the holset hx40 was the baby range, looking for equivilent of garett gt4088r in holset form , hx52, hx52super?

[DRIFTBOY]

400rwhp would be suffiecient, i want a project thrash-about for under £2-3000

I think you'll struggle to do that, especially as the base E30 will likely be tired and need uprated brakes, suspension, tyres etc. to cope with any such power hike, unless you almost blow your budget on a well fettled E30 to start with.

Might be worth waiting to find and buy a car already done!

[twist]

also - how much would i pay for- on average ebay/scrappy:

e36 m3 3L + 5speed manual box £
e36 m3 3.2L + 6speed manual box £

e?? m5_3.6 24v + g'box £
e?? m5_3.8 24v + g'box £

m30 3.5L 12v + manual box

and turbo manifolds, can you buy these £? or have to get them made ? [about £1000?]

thanks

[twist]

400rwhp would be suffiecient, i want a project thrash-about for under £2-3000

I think you'll struggle to do that, especially as the base E30 will likely be tired and need uprated brakes, suspension, tyres etc. to cope with any such power hike, unless you almost blow your budget on a well fettled E30 to start with.

Might be worth waiting to find and buy a car already done!

how about 325-350rwhp is that mor realistic? what would you estimate the car to weigh, kg?

[fuzzy]

400rwhp for £3000? good luck.

[Jhonno]

also - how much would i pay for- on average ebay/scrappy:

e36 m3 3L + 5speed manual box £ 6k DIY conversion
e36 m3 3.2L + 6speed manual box £ As above

e?? m5_3.6 24v + g'box £ No idea, not cheap - 1.5k for engine and box
e?? m5_3.8 24v + g'box £ As above

m30 3.5L 12v + manual box £500 conversion

and turbo manifolds, can you buy these £? or have to get them made ? [about £1000?]

thanks

[jamie850]

running a hx35 or hx40 on a m30 on standard internals what sort of hp is that capable of (at what psi boost)?

[Gunni]

400-450hp verified

At probably 1.2-1.5bar of boost.

[jamie850]

cheers Gunni, i'll make a note of that. I've not got the m30 in anything yet but kinda fancy a medium power turbo setup. ....its all this talk of 3rd gear burnouts that makes me want one

[twist]

so it is possible to make a e30 335i m30 3.5L 12v with a second hand holset hx40/50 with near 400rwhp standard internals with metal headgasket [i assume you guys use 12-15% transmission loss] ? 450 at the fly

[Gunni]

Yes.

[ImysE30]

Yes.

Sorry to butt in but may be useful to the OP anyway.

As your online, what turbo set-up would you recommend for a M30?

[fuzzy]

how laggy are these big turbos?at roughly what revs does it all start to happen?

[Gunni]

Yes.

Sorry to butt in but may be useful to the OP anyway.

As your online, what turbo set-up would you recommend for a M30?

What powerlevel?

how laggy are these big turbos?at roughly what revs does it all start to happen?

What engine?

[fuzzy]

say an m20 with a holset hx40 or bigger?

[ImysE30]

Yes.

Sorry to butt in but may be useful to the OP anyway.

As your online, what turbo set-up would you recommend for a M30?

What powerlevel?

Around the 400BHP mark

[Gunni]

Around the 400BHP mark

HX35 would spool like crazy on a M30 for that powerlevel and would suit for a very nice drivable car.
I´d say full boost at 2.5k at the latest with a fair manifold.
A HX40 would suit it more for a stronger top end with less boost.
But you could run the HX35 harder for the same power.

[Gunni]

say an m20 with a holset hx40 or bigger?

Assuming a split pulse manifold of very good design, then just below peak torque you should have all your boost in 3rd gear and above( that´s about 3700rpm on a M20). in the lower gears the engine will be to powerfull to stay and wait for the boost so maybe closer to 5k in 1st and 2nd.

[ImysE30]

Around the 400BHP mark

HX35 would spool like crazy on a M30 for that powerlevel and would suit for a very nice drivable car.
I´d say full boost at 2.5k at the latest with a fair manifold.
A HX40 would suit it more for a stronger top end with less boost.
But you could run the HX35 harder for the same power.

Interesting.

How much would a turbo set-up like this cost? 2-3k?

[Gunni]

hard to say, where are you getting things from,
used, new , self built partially and so on..

Let´s put it this way.

If I had a M30B35 E30. And wanted lightning response, tons of torque, plenty of hp,
Then a HX35 would be my choice. If I was gunning for 500hp on the old M30, I´d be looking at the HX40 , still coming on fairly strong early , but more high end power .

[Rav335uk]

Isn't the HX35 a diesel turbo???? r am i wrong?

[ImysE30]

It would probably be new stuff unless i could find good used stuff. Not got the skill to make myself

I guess it comes down to how much power you want and how much you got to spend

Thanks for the info so far

[Gunni]

Isn't the HX35 a diesel turbo???? r am i wrong?

It comes from the Cummins diesels yes.
It has served many of the BMW turbo fans nicely for round about 400hp figures.

Also there are no diesel turbo´s,
The only part that can be "diesel" is the material used in the turbine housing, which would mean that in time the diesel housing would deteriorate because of the heat. This has not been seen by people I know off using diesel turbo´s that have far excedded their expected life span and then get used in petrol applications.

[ImysE30]

Nice

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT

[Gunni]

That´s exactly what I´d use.

[jamie850]

I want one

[twist]

while looking at wikipedia i noticed, the m30 3.5L has 2 versions with different compression, i dont want to use forged engine parts, yet anyway, so whats my best choice? and is the wikipedia info correct, i have posted it below:-

one with 8:0 compression
M30B34 (207hp+224 ft·lbf) MADE-1986

and one with 9:0 compression
m30b35 217HP+225 ft·lbf) MADE-1988

using standard pistons+crank+conrods, which one would be best for 99 octance on a cheap ecu [megasquirt?]. with intercooler [saab/volvo etc] can i run higher boost with the 8:0 compression like a factory turbo motor without much more risk blowing it up,

say run the 9:0 compression at 0.9bar+ with a holset hx52 [when i said the hx35 before, i wanted a turbo equivilent to garrett gt4088r and got size confused!]

or say run the 8:0 compression at 1.1+bar with a holset hx52

i guess i will get far more power and torque from the 8:0 compression and only loose a few hundred rpm spool time compared to 9 compression version engine.

also, what it the rev limit for the 3.5L big six [standard or 'safely uprated' a little]

what rpm would the hx52 kick in with full boost ?

lastly, how many KG will i save doing this whole conversion [using an e30 body] instead of just using a 6 or 5 series with this engine already fitted?

many questions i know lol !

[GeoffBob]

say run the 9:0 compression at 0.9bar+ with a holset hx52 [when i said the hx35 before, i wanted a turbo equivilent to garrett gt4088r and got size confused!]

or say run the 8:0 compression at 1.1+bar with a holset hx52

The GT4088R is available with 4 different turbine A/R's. I don't know which one you have in mind (or how it compares to a Holsett HX52) but I would suggest you go for the smallest GT4088R (A/R=0.85) which chokes at 32lbs per minute (0.24kg/sec) air flow and therefore spools up the quickest.

At 1.3bar boost (~P2/P1=2.3) your 3.5 litre engine will flow 0.25kg/sec of air at 4000RPM. This assumes your intercooler is large enough to maintain an inlet temperature of 40'C, and that your engines VE is roughly 0.9 at 4000RPM. Looking at the GT4088R compressor map this places you safely below surge at 32lbs/min air flow and P2/P1=2.3, and just to the left of maximum compressor efficiency. Flowing 0.25kg/sec of air (and assuming the AFR is set correctly, and that you have a correctly designed/sized inlet and exhaust) she'll make roughly 320hp (at the flywheel) at 4000RPM. If you maintain your 1.3bar boost all the way through to 6000rpm (and assuming nothing blows up) she'll do you for 455hp. However, if you plan to aim for this sort of power I would suggest that your engine will require some degree engine upgrade. Not to mention the size intercooler, radiator and oil-cooler you will require if you plan to run with this sort of power for any real length of time. You can also expect to have to fit, at the very least, a 3.5" diameter exhaust system, so if you are already talking about a "budget ECU", I'd suggest you forget fitting a "large frame" high hp turbo. A step back from an HX52 to an HX40 would, I suggest, suit both your application and pocket better.

On 99 Octane fuel (not sure where you buy that?) a 9:1 CR will do fine, but you will get greedy at some point so you might want to look at the 8:1 straight off. Unfortunately, I have no knowledge with regards to the accuracy of the CR values published on the Zone Wiki. At any boost value below the above 1.3bar (by simply opening the wastegate sooner) you will obviously flow less air, but will arrive at that boost value at lower RPM (since it will take less air flow through the engine/turbine to cause the compressor to make that amount of boost).

Incidentally, I have never before seen the words "GT4088R" and "cheap ECU" feature in the same post.

No offence intended, but I would recommend you start your project by buying the book "Forced Induction Performance Tuning" by A. Graham Bell and learn to answer some of your questions yourself, else you could land up paying for other peoples mistakes (mine included).

Good Luck
Geoff

[Gunni]

I recently took a M30 dyno chart and reworked the VE´s backwards.
It has very poor VE to begin with at top, it´s all about the low end

2k = 88%
4k = 91%
5k = 81%
6k = 54%

That beeing said I then plotted this on to the HX40 7blade turbo.



As you can see it can maintain to the right of the surge line at any boost above 2400rpm. Meaning it will make any boost you want at that rpm, not that you´ll probably have accelarated away from that rpm anyway. So flooring it and thinking you´ll see that boost is not going to happen. Unless your stuck on a dyno doing steady state.

This turbo I feel is spot on for a M30 for upto 500hp.
with a nice low end feel to it.

M30´s running 8.0:1 compression will not have problems
M30´s running 9.0:1 compression will not have problems


There will be no spool difference between compression ratios.
Don´t rev a B35 past 6500rpm , there is just no more air flow there.

E30 with M30 weighs about 1300kg´s or so, while a 5series is 1550kg or so and a 7series is 1700kg´s or so.,

What is your performance goal, drivability and so on?
a GT40 or HX52 are pretty big turbo´s to be fitting on to a M30 for low boost or mild power