E30 vs Golf GTI mk2 - Discuss!

[LowLevel]

Anyone Mk1 GTI fans here?

How do you think they compare to E30's?

I used to have one and LOVED it!

[Bavarian_Autotech]

Anyone Mk1 GTI fans here?

How do you think they compare to E30's?

I used to have one and LOVED it!

good funcars, different sort of fun to a rwd
tbh anything a bit quick and fwd will lose an e30 or most other rwd cars on a twisty road as you cannot drive a rwd car with the same sort of abandon you can a fwd one.

[alex-e30]

ok then mark 2 golf gti up against which e30?

[Onz]

Best car I ever bought is a mk1 GTI just a go kart with 5 gears!

[richard-the-nutter]

Anyone Mk1 GTI fans here?

How do you think they compare to E30's?

I used to have one and LOVED it!

good funcars, different sort of fun to a rwd
tbh anything a bit quick and fwd will lose an e30 or most other rwd cars on a twisty road as you cannot drive a rwd car with the same sort of abandon you can a fwd one.

suddenly i feel rather aprehensive about buying a e30
can someone give an honest opinion on how i would manage after 3 years driving experience jumping into rear wheel drive?
richard

[harry_p]

lol, don't worry about it!

an e30 is one of the most gentle and progressive rwd car around. if they turned to instant deathtraps at the sniff of a wet road how are there so many still around, and plenty are driven by old giffers who wouldnt know what opposite lock was if it smacked them in the face.

there's a lot of crap spouted on here, people will diss a car because it's not rwd, despite it being one of the most fun cars on the road, despite driving a rwd car that you probably can't tell is rwd 99% of the time. it amazes me how many people buy a sub 150bhp, open diffed rwd car and suddenly theyre a drift master who can look down their nose at everything non rwd.

a mk2 gti has a quicker steering rack, more steering feel, is more chuckable, just as well built, cheaper to run, more practical, has more throttle adjustability tuned into it's handling, and probably goes sideways more easily than the vast majority of e30s.

the e30 is a great car, it definately has something a bit extra over most car's of the era, but a lot of people who think theyre the greatest car ever built really need to take off their blinkers and have a look around

[tornado]

In my opinion it's wrong to compare this classic cars. Firsty because the G2 16V is only 1781cc and really can not be compared with the 325i (which is 2.5l). Now, if you compare it with the 318is that's ok. In this occasion, the MK2 is faster than the 318is mainly 'cause it's lighter.
Comparison have to be made like this:
- Golf MK2 1.8 16V (or Corrado 2.0 16V 9A) with the BMW E30 3.18iS
- Corrado 2.9 12v VR6 with the BMW E30 325i
- The E30 M3 can not be compared with any VW model 'cause it's a homologation special car (maybe only with the Golf MK2 16V-G60 LIMITED-only 81 ever produced)

I currently own a Corrado 1.8 16V KR (139bhp, but heavier than the Golf MK2) and from personal experience i can say that it's slower from a 318is.

The E30 is definately more a 'luxury' car than the Golf MK2, better interior and build quality

[suchy]

I had a MK1 GTi for ten years (sold him last year as my E30 is more fun) and in that time have also had another MK1 GTi, an 8v Mk2 and a 16v Mk2. The best handling of them all was my original long-term Mk1. Slightly dropped on springs and running on original 14" BBS's. My fave was my 8v MK2- definatly the quickest A2B car I've had. Dropped 50mm but running standard 14" BBS's so the ride was still compliant, he used to fly- controllable throttle off oversteer easly accomplished, extremely cheap to run and maintain. I never really liked the 16v- ran on 17" rims with 45 profile rubber and never handled anything like the others (I think 16's would have been much better!) always felt twitchy on any road that was mildly bumpy!! 8v was more responsive low down and much more suited to town driving or fast road driving. The 16v didn't come alive until 4k, great on a motorway. BUT....... my E30 (sport) drinks WAAAAAAY more fuel, costs more to maintain, is heavier to drive, isn't as nimble, but is far more rewarding to drive when I need it to be (if you catch my drift?) that is why I sold my Golfs, not because the arse end sticks out occassionally but because (in my opinion) it's more of a drivers car. Now an E30 M3...... now you're talking

oh yeah the brakes were better in the golfs also!!

[Rosc0PColtrane]

Anyone Mk1 GTI fans here?

How do you think they compare to E30's?

I used to have one and LOVED it!

good funcars, different sort of fun to a rwd
tbh anything a bit quick and fwd will lose an e30 or most other rwd cars on a twisty road as you cannot drive a rwd car with the same sort of abandon you can a fwd one.

suddenly i feel rather aprehensive about buying a e30
can someone give an honest opinion on how i would manage after 3 years driving experience jumping into rear wheel drive?
richard

Don't. That's wrong. It's a different driving style. If FWD was that much better in generalist terms, then Formula 1 would have adopted delivering power in this method.

I seem to recall RWD cars being very competative in Touring Car too...

Rally cars prior to Quattro? RWD.....

Quickes t car around 'ring? IIRC a Nissan Skyline? RWD...

Seeing a pattern?

You have to be driving like a c*nt to get RWD wrong. Hell, you have to drive like a c*nt to get fwd wrong. Much the same. If you're ina 325 mid corner, second gear and you plant your foot, it can go wrong. So will a FWD car, just not in the same fashion. The end result of humping a kerb/wall will ensue.

It's not a big leap, get in one, drive it. Take it to an airfield or private land and see what happens when you drive like a c*nt.

[oakey]

Have ferrari ever made a fwd supercar?! Have Porsche?!! Its nonsense that a fwd handles twisties better than rwd.
The reason why small hatchbacks are more nimble than e30s is down to them having less weight and the fact that the driver (in most cases) can push the car harder without risk of loosing the back end.

[Onz]

fair comments guys, but the FWD golf's were also rally winners and the first ever diesel rally car was a MK3 TDI!!!

the MK2 Golf and the E30 are both great cars, and fair play to roscoe and oakey's comments. I agree that RWD is better for "race" cars but on a public road how hard can you actually push any car?

I must also state that if you read what people are saying and look that you are actually posting on an E30 forum. There is that little extra about having a smooth RWD car as opposed to a rev happy FWD vtec hunter :p

(notice how most of the comments are also from people who have moved onto the E30 AFTER owning VW's)

[harry_p]

i have a rev happy rwd vtec hunter e30, and the mrs currently owns a mk2 8v, i can swap between the two whenever i want, my views are not through rose tinted specs, or after moving on from one to the next.

saying rwd is the be all and end all because the fastest racing cars and supercars are all rwd is just daft, we're talking an old sub 200bhp family saloon car (in the majority of cases) where the advantages of being rwd are small, and most of the time non existant.

bmw even bunged a 16v head onto their 318 allong with a few other tweeks to try and capture some of the hothatch market. even then they didnt do too well, the 318is criticised for slow steering, lack of performance, body roll, and feeling a bit too grown up to be as fun as the hothatches of the time.

[Hyperion]

Just saw this tread, and thought i would put in my 2cents. Mk2 vs E30, i would pick the E30. i think they have better build quality and feel like a better car. VW's (of that period) i have noticed always rattle, shake the interior and were not well spec'd compared to the e30.
And
to add to the MK1 vs MK2 debate, i would choose a MK2 over a MK1 just because the MK1 is like a rash here in SA they still bloody make the damn things!!!
Check it out the VW SA site with the latest MK1 offerings..
http://www.vw.co.za/models/citi/

[tim_s]

i've had 2 mk1s (one EW campaign, and a '83 DW) and they are an absolute hoot to drive. The e30 is a totally different car, comparison is pretty pointless. Golfs are a whole load of fun, really practical and kind of endearing. E30s are cheap rwd cars with pretty decent chassis dynamics. There's a reason why mk2 golfs and e30s tend to be the weapon of choice as cars to be cheap nurburgring track cars.

[casper8r]

RWD... FWD.... AWD.... it's all about the driver anyway. Each drive method has it's own quirks, there is no single best one, as with everything there are pluses and minuses. Every type of drive requires different driving style, it's about finding out what YOU like best and find more natural.

Some people swear that FWD is safer - another vast generalization! What happens when an inexperienced driver in an FWD car realises they've entered the corner a bit too fast and lets go of the throttle?

And on "oh, but the e30 is RWD"... so? Unless it's a 325i AND its wet, there won't me much sliding in everyday driving. They're too low powered for drifting antics on dry tarmac and good tyres. If you happen to have some snow where you live, then it becomes a whole new dimension, I used to have a 316i that was good enough for sliding!

Back on the subject - I like them both for different reasons. Mk2 GTI ir a great, great little car, lots of fun on twisties, maybe less suited for long motorway journeys than e30, more of a kart-like feeling (when comparing originals). e30 is more comfortable but really could do with sharper steering.

[casper8r]

<<< double posting monkey!

[Rosc0PColtrane]

saying rwd is the be all and end all because the fastest racing cars and supercars are all rwd is just daft, we're talking an old sub 200bhp family saloon car (in the majority of cases) where the advantages of being rwd are small, and most of the time non existant.

The comments about fwd v rwd were just that. Not anything to do with e30's. The statement was tantamount to fwd>rwd. I chose to refute that statement and cite examples.

[suchy]

The comments about fwd v rwd were just that. Not anything to do with e30's. The statement was tantamount to fwd>rwd. I chose to refute that statement and cite examples.

how eloquently stated

[Onz]

if that were the case both Porsche and Lambourgini would not have made their latest and fastest models AWD :p

[LowLevel]

How is the build quality in comparison to an E30, on a MK1?

Would you guys prefer a 1.8L 8v MK1 or a 16v MK1?

[Rosc0PColtrane]

if that were the case both Porsche and Lambourgini would not have made their latest and fastest models AWD :p

How exactly is that relevant to fwd v's rwd????

[oakey]

saying rwd is the be all and end all because the fastest racing cars and supercars are all rwd is just daft, we're talking an old sub 200bhp family saloon car (in the majority of cases) where the advantages of being rwd are small, and most of the time non existant.

There is no "real" advantage to real wheel drive unless the driver prefers it and finds the car more fun to drive.
If I drive a fwd car now I can never have much fun, as I just keep thinking about how much better it would be if it were rwd

So therefore IMO the advantages of rear wheel drive, for me, ARE existent everytime I drive the car.

[E30BeemerLad]

can someone make a fair point about the advantages of RWD in a road car situation?

frankly I can't see any other than the occasional thrill that the back end gets a bit of a wiggle on when you order too many beans up from the engine room. The safe predictability of understeer from a FWD car lends to an allround better driving experience at the limits, rather than getting shat out backwards into a hedge or wall from a RWD car.

RWD to me just has too much kudos and emphasis because of the ridiculous F&F films and the fact everyone thinks they are a drifter because the back end steps out a few inches on a wet roundabout.

[oakey]

Personal preference Beemerlad, personal preference. Your preference is the 'safe predictability' from fwd where as my preference is the possibility of "getting shat out backwards into a hedge or wall from a RWD car".

Why is driving a car fast fun?! Arguably because of the element of danger?

Go and ask a f1 driver if they'd rather they're car be converted to front wheel drive because of its 'safe predictability'

[George_Of_The_Jungle]

I had a mint A1 Mk2 8v gti, and now got a 325i sport. each is better in different aspects.
The golf has much better handling, and is more fun to take roundabouts quickly, but the e30 is more comfortable, has more driveable power for when you are not hooning it around, better from the lights, and can go sideways on demand.........

Being over taken by a crx was the moment i decided to sell the golf. now i'm looking for another Mk2 to play with, but my e30 is always gonna be in MY garage

[casper8r]

The safe predictability of understeer from a FWD car lends to an allround better driving experience at the limits, rather than getting shat out backwards into a hedge or wall from a RWD car.

*suspiciously staring at his toes murmurs* some e30 sheds with worn suspension and so-so tyres understeer worse than a decent FWD car.

[Rosc0PColtrane]

can someone make a fair point about the advantages of RWD in a road car situation?

frankly I can't see any other than the occasional thrill that the back end gets a bit of a wiggle on when you order too many beans up from the engine room. The safe predictability of understeer from a FWD car lends to an allround better driving experience at the limits, rather than getting shat out backwards into a hedge or wall from a RWD car.

RWD to me just has too much kudos and emphasis because of the ridiculous F&F films and the fact everyone thinks they are a drifter because the back end steps out a few inches on a wet roundabout.

Motion is achieved by the engine attempting to cause the wheels to break traction with the road surface. Adhesive tyre compunds work against this and the resulting action is movement, rather than spinning wheels.

Changing the direction of the car asks the weight of the vehicle to act against the inertia being placed upon it. Again the deciding factor of the fail/success of this action is the grip of the tyres.

By asking the same wheels to achieve propulsion as well as change of direction puts extra stress on them.

This actually has an effect on how the vehicle turns in. A fwd car requires a small amount of additional action to complete the manouver as the car resists the demand to change direction. In extremes this can result in understeer. Where as rwd, a more positive feel occurs, requiring less turning action. In extremes this can result in oversteer.

The extremes are an example of how the forces act on the car. I also believe that whether a car is pushed (rwd) or pulled (fwd) affects the weight distribution under load.

[JohnnyBlazE]

Something about the wheels at the back pushing you forward rather than the ones at the front pulling you along just seems... right... I was driving my Astra the other day and suffered serious understeer and didn't have the balls to accellerate much through the corners - it was wet and the tyres aren't superb - I need to sort that!

[E30BeemerLad]

I'm not aversed to RWD chariots (I have 2 on the driveway) by any means and consider myself a capable driver but I'd bet good money on any capable FWD hot hatch like a MK2 Golf, Pug 205 or 309, Clio 16V etc etc giving anything bar an M3 the hiding of it's life through the twisties and for the M3 money an integra type R would leave it in it's wake.

To me it's about making the progress without the dramas

[Hyperion]

FWD vs RWD vs AWD
watch this:

[Onz]

nice clip mate! Sadly not very driver orientatedor fair for the Audi or alfa. Why is it that only the bmw had TC turned on? Also I have found that anytime my GTi understeers I just let of the gas slightly and let it grip like its on rails again. There are very few corners that a Golf GTI cant take at full throttle if entered correctly ;)

[JohnnyBlazE]

I'm not aversed to RWD chariots (I have 2 on the driveway) by any means and consider myself a capable driver but I'd bet good money on any capable FWD hot hatch like a MK2 Golf, Pug 205 or 309, Clio 16V etc etc giving anything bar an M3 the hiding of it's life through the twisties and for the M3 money an integra type R would leave it in it's wake.

To me it's about making the progress without the dramas

I've seen an E30 318is do some impressive stuff on the twisties vs. a Civic Type-R - the ITR never came out that night He is generally one of the quickest through the twisties bar a few Type-Rs and such.

[zed_head]

It also depends on the driver I think. Some people can handle and
manage RWD cars better than others. For other people, well they
might feel more confident in FWD cars.

As for the original debate, both Mk2 GTi's and E30's are fine, classic
cars. I've had 4 Mk2's and 3 E30's. There are arguments for and
against both of these fine cars and at the end of the day it's down to an
individual's taste and what they want from a car.
I'd gladly own either one !

[78dude]

I have never owned an VW product apart form an old School Audi 100 long time ago!
The Mk2 VW Golf is a nice car, even with a 1.8 engine is quick and nappy on the road, and other thing is that its much more practical then the E30... For a reason I hate cars you cant fell down the rear seats, and dont ask why I had an E30 saloon and a 7 series, both of those cars doesnt have the parcticalety to fell down seats to make your boot biger. I like the design better on the E30, for me it looks a bit exlucive compeer to the Golf who is a Volks Wagen, car for the people....

But I do have a lot of respect for the Mk1 and Mk2 VW Golf GTIs!

[zed_head]

One outstanding thing about the Mk2 8v is that they are fantastic
regarding fuel economy even when driven bery hard.