My E30/R5Turbo track car - Gearbox MkIII

[GeoffBob]

Hi Mike,

Many thanks, I greatly appreciate your input. It's reassuring to hear that I am on the right track. I am busy at the moment working out exactly where I will fit the additional drain. I think I may have found a good spot on the back of the head that is down low enough to ensure adequate drainage, I just have to make sure I don't weaken the casting or penetrate a waterway when I drill it.

If the Lexus V8’s suffer the same problem then it could be that this is a Toyota related issue? I guess it’s possible that a good supply of oil to the cams at low RPM partly accounts for Toyota’s renowned reliability?

Hopefully I haven’t lucked out yet. I have been watching my gauges like a hawk during testing and my oil temp never made it over 110’C. If I have then I’ll just have to put in the required R&D to get around it I guess.

Please, if others have had similar experiences with engines at high RPM then I’d appreciate your input. This is my first attempt at running an engine at high RPM for extended periods. All tips and tricks at getting it right will be gratefully received.

[e21Jason]

This is also a problem on BMW common mod on m30's when used hard is to fit a ristrictor into the oil feed pipe, and on the s50 BMW have a specific Group A restrictor valve for the head.

And one of the difference's between and m10 and s14 block is the extra oil drain the s14 has

Jason

[Mikey_Boy]

No problems Geoff - given your superb advice to me I hope that my fuzzy memories of when I was an engineer can help in some way! Not too familar with Toyota engine specifics, but there does seem to be a pattern doesn't there? High oil flow at low RPM isn't going to hurt reliability for sure - good cam design will help here with all the nasty high loads at low revs.

What always strikes me is how little oil flow is required for the cylinder head overall - it was a subject of discussion and calculation in the F1 and racing world , especially given the differing lubricating requirements as well - differing oil types for head and block would be ideal here but not practical - lubricating a cam is more akin to gear lubrication given the sweep of the lobe.

Anyway - the arguments varied that of your 100% oil flow, at most 25% is needed for the head, with some claiming less than 10% is required. Given that we don't have limitless budgets and testing time, I would suggest being conservative on the flow restrictor for now!

You would be VERY unlucky indeed to luck out with oil breathing - but this an important area that needs to be attended to and if you have a good catch tank of a big enough volume then you are most of the way there - most OEM attempts at this are not good and tend not to address crankcase breathing at all - just managing the positive pressure in the crankcase to an acceptable level - what's really needed is a small amount of vacuum in the block and head to help the seals do a better job and also reduce windage losses, which go up as a cube of engine speed if memory serves - it can be as much as 30 - 50 hp loss on an F1 engine at 16000rpm if the breathing is wrong. I assume your engine has a breathing point on the block as well as the head? Your oil temps look very safe - you could go a touch higher without any issues assuming that you are measuring sump temp?

As a final thought - no chance of going dry sump? That would help a great deal!!
Cheers,
Mike

[GeoffBob]

Thanks Jason, excellent input as always. Good to hear that I'm not the first person to encounter this problem. For all the books I've read on this topic you'd think I would have seen mention of restricting oil flow to the head? Goes to show, once again, that book learnin' will only get one so far.

Mike, thanks again. You've raised an excellent point with regard to a breather on the block. The short answer is no, I don't have one The moment you made the point the penny dropped how useful a bottom-end breather would be on my engine. If my bottom-end has to breath through the valve cover then the drains (running down through the block) will not be very effective at draining oil back to the sump, will they? I reckon I could create a breather by fitting an aluminium pipe (similar to that for the turbo oil drain) on the other side of engine from that shown in the photo below.



A dry-sump is currently in the wings. The instant I joined my race club someone approached me with a complete dry-sump system for a 3S-GTE. In the mean time I am using an aluminium "oil box" mounted below the crank, but separated from the crank by an aluminium tray/dish type thingy. This should help keep windage to a minimum. The tray has holes in it to allow oil to drain back into the "box", as well a hole through which the oil pick-up dips down into the oil. The capacity of the box is roughly 7.0 litres, but is filled to 6.5 litre with Castrol Edge 10W-60 synthetic oil. I am measuring my oil temp on the right side of the sump below the oil line.

[Mikey_Boy]

Ahhh - I see! In fairness, most OEM efforts don't breath directly from the block either as placing that breather can be very tricky. The way around this (to save cost usually) is to make the drain for the cylinder head huge so there is a path to breath up as well as for oil to drain down - the M20 engine is a good example of this method. So you could in theory or if you have room just open up the existsing drain pathways to help. However, if you are going to be brave and go for a cylinder block breather then a place needs to be located above the oil fill level (for obvious reasons!) where the oil in air velocity is pretty low (i.e. away from where the crank webs thrash around) so that you don't multiply your problems by whisking oil straight into your breather system- that defeats the object! Next to where a web passes is usually a no-no. Somewhere in the middle of the block is good, in between cylinders about mid way up the con rod throw - just one breather on one side of the block is usually enough in conjunction with the (now greatly relieved) cylinder head breather. Finding all that might be a bit tough and as always it's a compromise!! This is where my unfamiliarity with the toyota engine above really shows - sorry!
If you find a spot on the block, then I hope I am not stating the obvious when I suggest that your total system is closed loop, feeding back into the airbox from a large capacity catch tank. Oil loves to stay mixed in air as long as it is moving - as soon as you slow it down enough, the oil will fall out, hence the importance of a large and correctly plumbed catch tank - the inlet pipe needs to reach over half way into the tank and the outlet pipe meeds to be flush to the top of the tank - this ensures that the inlet and outlet pipes don't 'talk' to one another with oil - rather like how inlet tracts can be 'tuned', the inlet and outlet pipes must be separated.

This all looks like a lot of effort, so I guess you need to weigh up if it's worth it compared to the dry sump system which should give big gains and peace of mind for reliability. Given the efforts you have made so far Geoff - sorting the oil system should be the work of a moment!!

The oil grade you are using is super for this application and lots of capacity helps - you have a good factor of safety for your oil temperature measuring where you do - critical temp is oil into the mains which shouldn't get about 150 celsius ideally to maintain film thickness of 1 micron or more. Rule of thumb here is oil into the engine (post cooler) will heat up about 20 degrees as it gets bashed through the bearings - given your sump temps and also not forgetting the extra thermal load from the turbo, I think you are very safe at 110 in the sump.

Hope that helps!
Cheers,
Mike

[GeoffBob]

Hope that helps!

Most definitely Mike, most definitely indeed! Thank you so much for your input. You have given me a huge amount of food for thought. I will inspect the block this evening to see where I can locate the lower beather. Unfortunately I will not be able to open up the oil ways through the block, so a lower breather is (I suspect) my best way forward. I have a spot in mind, as per your recomendations, already.

I hope I am not stating the obvious when I suggest that your total system is closed loop, feeding back into the airbox from a large capacity catch tank.

Not at all Mike. The more explicit you are on this matter the better for me. This is one area of my engine build that I have clearly neglected. While I believe I have a relatively strong race engine on my hands, it is clear to me that I have very stupidly overlooked an important aspect of getting my engine to perform reliably and repeatably. A single breather hose (from the valve cover) hanging down the back of the engine into a plastic bottle (except that I forgot the bottle ), clearly doesn't cut the mustard . I won't let you down in making sure I get this properly sorted out.

Thanks again for your advice.

Regards
Geoff

[Mikey_Boy]

Thanks for the kind words Geoff - oil breathing is an easy thing to overlook and gives great gains in reliability as well as a smidge of power back - most engine designers don't get it right first time and whilst it's now much better understood than it was, it's still considered a 'black art' by many!
Good luck with it and PM me if you need anything else!
Cheers,
Mike

[GeoffBob]

Thanks again Mike.

I Installed the additional oil drain on the rear of the head, as well as the crank-case breather, last night. I have located the breather slightly lower than half way up the block (below the water jacket), just forward of centre. Unfortunately the block includes some fairly sturdy ribs/fillets (to reinforce the block) that run vertically up and down the inside of the block in line with the main journals. While it would have been convenient to drill through one of these, it would have blatantly reduced the strength of the block. I therefore drilled through a nice clear patch slightly forward of the middle main journal. I then tapped each hole with a 1/4" NPT tap and installed two brass 1/4" NPT to 1/2" hose adapters. Sorry, no pics at this stage.

The plan thus far is to run the crank-case and valve cover breathers to an aluminium catch tank, connected (exactly as you have described Mike) using 1/2" dunlop hose, and then run the catch-tank outlet/breather to the air-intake. The additional drain on the head will run down to a piece of aluminium pipe located on the side of the sump above the oil line.

Given how much work has already gone into my current sump I am determined to make it work for the time being. Once the existing engine is trackworthy, I plan to blueprint a second engine and fit the dry-sump.

[GeoffBob]

Engine mods are now complete:

1) 2.5mm oil restriction installed in oil-way on the rear of the block deck.
2) Additional oil drain installed in the rear of the head to drain surplus oil back to the sump. Additional inlet added to the sump (above the oil line) to receive said oil.
3) Breather installed in the side of the block to ventilate the crank-case.
4) Aluminium catch-can welded up from a blanked off piece of aluminium pipe. Will receive the breather hoses from both the valve-cover and the crank-case. Catch-can installed against the firewall.

I have also finished assembling my new gearbox ready for installation this weekend when the engine goes back in. Quite a complicated bit of kit if I do say so myself. Sadly, I have this nagging feeling that the first time I try to shift at high RPM there's going to be this almighty crunching sound followed by the tinkle-tinkle of bits of gear hitting the car behind me . No matter how much effort I put in I can't help but doubt my work. Lets hope that self-doubt has kept me on my toes while assembling the gear-train. One missed detent ball or one selector ring slightly out of place and I could find myself in two gears at the same time. Now that can only end in tears. Throughout the assembly process I have inspected everything thoroughly and despite the absence of synchroniser rings, all five gears shift smoothly the instant the relevant teeth are aligned. I do however have concerns with regard to the shear-strength of the teeth on the dog-rings and whether they will withstand the rigours of high RPM shifts associated with racing. And no matter how many times my calculator says the teeth are sized correctly and will be sufficiently strong, there is nothing like a hot lap to sort out inferior materials and processes from quality!

Wish me luck, I suspect I will need it.

[martinpallot]

Good luck with the Box, I'm currently awaiting one of these: http://www.eliteracingtransmissions.com ... p?g=7&c=11

Although I havn't designed it myself, I'm still terrified of the thing spitting the gears on the floor. I think anyone that uses a a dog-box is no matter who designed or assembled it!

[GeoffBob]

Thanks Martin, that's a fantastic box you have ordered, I am green with envy. I would love a true sequential box on my own car one day.

[billgatese30]

Don't worry about it Geoff, I'm sure everything will be strong enough, but as they say, there is only one way to find out

[Mikey_Boy]

Geoff,

+1 here - I have every faith in your abilities!!



Having that nagging doubt is healthy - being complacent is far far worse!!

Mike

[GeoffBob]

Many thanks for the words of confidence Gents - Helps me find the energy to see this project through to completion.

Sadly, my plans to put the gearbox and engine back in this weekend had to be set aside when I received the sad news (on Wednesday evening) of the passing of a friend. I thus had to pack a bag on short notice and toddle off down to Natal on Thursday morning for his funeral. I was a bandsman in a previous incarnation, so we formed up the old band (those that are still alive) in his honour on Thursday evening in preparation to play at his funeral (a "spirited" Catholic affair) on the Friday - and what a send-off we gave him. So much so that I am having trouble remembering what we did for the rest of the day . He was 89 and a mad Glaswegian, but I will still miss him immensely .

But more to the point, I have just got back from Natal this evening, and will thus only recommence with the car tomorrow (once I have "recovered"). I’ll post more when I have made further progress on the car.

[GeoffBob]

Finally had a weekend to myself. Engine is back in and the new gearbox is installed . Unfortunately I did not get as far as firing her up again as I have a few minor issues to take care of first, namely the starter motor solenoid, which is currently minus any thread on its copper power teminal (that'll teach me to wind nuts onto threads in the dark) and the overflow outlet on the radiator needs replacing with something a little stronger (currently has a very weak piece of aluminium tube that most certainly won't withstand the rigours of racing).

Other news is that I noticed wet oily marks where the exhaust valves protrude into the exhaust ports, indicating that I definitely had oil running down the valve-guides. Clealy visible is how the exhaust gasses then blew the oil up and out the ports into the manifold. Now, to my mind that indicates a clear requirement for new valve-guides. I have been assured, however, that with the top of the head flooded with oil, the upside down buckets (that reside on top of each valve under the cams) function quite effectively as hydraulic pistons, injecting oil down into the valve-guides, and that with the newly installed oil restrictor in place, the problem will go away.

Well, that remains to be seen. Maybe its just my doubtful nature - but I sodding well doubt it. I know worn valveguides when I see them, and this engine needs a head doctor! Well, its not really that much work to take the head off again and have the valve-guides done if the experts turn out to be wrong. Lets face it, if they turn out to be right then I'll have saved some money. If not, then my position is the same as before, and that's another expert who won't be getting a Christmas card this year.

Also, the new aluminium oil catch-tank is installed with hoses running from the valve cover and crank-case to the tank. I really should have taken a pic, but I forgot.

[keri-WMS]

Not sure if it helps but here are a few (UK) 3S-GTE tuning places that might have handy experiences/info:

www.woodsport.org (less engine tuning, more Toyota engine swaps, but HEAPS of cars under their belts, mainly 3S-GTE / V6 into Mk1 / Mk3 MR2 swaps)

www.twobrutal.co.uk (basicaly a forum with loads of people behaving like Woodsport!)

www.fensport.co.uk (flagship is a 202.22mph, 9.74sec 1/4mile 800bhp 4x4 3S-GTE converted Gen 7 Celica)

www.centurymotorsport.com (Nathan Freke's gang, flagship (was) a 9.772 1/4mile road legal Mk2 MR2 3S-GTE)

Bit random and to be honest you probably out-gun the majority of them but worth it if you get one or two handy bits of info?

[Mikey_Boy]

Hey Geoff - sounds like you are making great progress! You are right to be doubly safe with the valve guides - I have never heard of hydraulic tappets doing nasties down valve guides before..

And I sincerely hope my recommendations for your oil tank work as I would hate to be struck off your Xmas card list!!

As final thought on valve guides - before you go getting new guides fitted and all that trouble, it might be that getting slightly tighter valve stem seals would help without cabbaging the lubrication you need down them - exhaust valve stem seals are always the problem side!

Cheers,
Mike

[GeoffBob]

Thanks for that Keri, I'll definitely check those links out. I figure the more info I can collect the better.

www.fensport.co.uk (flagship is a 202.22mph, 9.74sec 1/4mile 800bhp 4x4 3S-GTE converted Gen 7 Celica)

You have got to be kidding! I had heard that the 3SGTE is capable of silly power figures, but that really is astounding. Well done to them.

BTW, I read somewhere that Toyota Racing Developments (TRD) in Japan used to throw out the stock 6-cylinder 2JZ motors from their Supras and retro-fit a 4-cylinder 3S-GTE. That has to at least say something about the 3S-GTE .

[GeoffBob]

Hey Geoff - sounds like you are making great progress! You are right to be doubly safe with the valve guides - I have never heard of hydraulic tappets doing nasties down valve guides before..

And I sincerely hope my recommendations for your oil tank work as I would hate to be struck off your Xmas card list!!

As final thought on valve guides - before you go getting new guides fitted and all that trouble, it might be that getting slightly tighter valve stem seals would help without cabbaging the lubrication you need down them - exhaust valve stem seals are always the problem side!

Cheers,
Mike

Thanks Mike. I inspected the valve stem seals before I put the head back on the block. I had a complete head job done by a local company and they fitted new seals, amongst other things (grinding valve seats etc). What concerns me is that the 3S-GTE has different seals around the exhaust valves compared to those around the inlet valves ”“ and I suspect that they may have fitted inlet seals all round. My plan of action is to pick up another engine ASAP and have its head done under my supervision. I’ll then transfer that head across in place of the current head while I get on with doing the second block. I figure that I just have to do it this way since only a head prepared to my personal standards will remove those nagging doubts from my mind.

And I have no doubt that your suggestions for the oil tank will work just fine, so you’re on my card list for definite.

[keri-WMS]

www.fensport.co.uk (flagship is a 202.22mph, 9.74sec 1/4mile 800bhp 4x4 3S-GTE converted Gen 7 Celica)

You have got to be kidding! I had heard that the 3SGTE is capable of silly power figures, but that really is astounding. Well done to them.

To be fair I just had another poke at their site and that's estimated in "drag spec" (bigger turbine and a 75bhp shot of nos) - normal sprint setup is supposedly 700bhp. I'm looking for a dyno printout!

No arguing with Century though, apparently 630bhp at the wheels before nos:
[youtube][/youtube]

The car managed a few runs but was bizarrely destroyed on it's trailer in a motorway pile-up!

[GeoffBob]

That's too much power for me Keri, my car is only RWD. As much as I would love an AWD Celica, I love my little car to bits at the moment. So long as I can maintain my 335bhp without having to rebuild the engine once a month, I'll be happy.

And speaking of rebuilding, it's official - I have now driven the car with my new gearbox fitted! And the good news is that the engine has stopped blowing oil everywhere (there wasn't a drop in the catch tank when I got home), but the jury is still out on the whole valve-guide issue until I get the car back down the track (I am going to try for Wednesday if the boss will give me the day off). I did a full half-hour outing around the neighbourhood this evening and was pleasantly surprised by the result. All the gears work (thank goodness for that) but the noise (with the exception of direct drive fourth) is insane! She whines so loud I could have sworn the missus was in the seat next to me. Even at idle you can hear the gear teeth on the lay shaft chattering away. Pulling away in first gear is a nightmare due to the low ratio (2.00:1) and hence very low wheel torque. Once up to speed is, however, an altogether different story. You wouldn’t believe how fast I can corner in first gear! Actually, TBH, I could probably drive to the shops and back in first gear all the way. There’s just no need to shift up until such time as you want to go fast, which is of course what this car is about (definitely not a shopping car).

If I do get to take her down the track on Wednesday I’ll have to beg borrow or steal a video camera from someone. The sound from this gearbox is something that just has to be shared .

[keri-WMS]

That 1/4mile vid is actually a Mk2 MR2 - rear/mid engined RWD transverse 3S-GTE, hence the wheelie.

Back to your car though - glad it's behaving as planned so far, can't wait to see some videos!!!!

[gareth]

Fantastic news
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

[billgatese30]

but the noise (with the exception of direct drive fourth) is insane! She whines so loud I could have sworn the missus was in the seat next to me.

That genuinely made me laugh out loud for a moment.


Glad to see this is up and running though and your gearbox is working as planned. I told you it would work

The sound has to be shared though, I'd love to put a straight cut box on the S50 but I just need to pull my finger out and get the engine fitted into the new shell for a start, well that and a few grand for free to actually buy a gearbox wouldn't go a miss either

[GeoffBob]

That 1/4mile vid is actually a Mk2 MR2 - rear/mid engined RWD transverse 3S-GTE, hence the wheelie.

Oooooh Errr Goodness I'm showing my ignorance, I don't know a Celica from a MK2 MR2. Only ever seen pictures of either TBH. Apologies if my comment sounded a bit snotty. In hindsight it sounds as if I am shunning your input, quite the contrary. In all honesty, I just don't think I have the know-how to build a 630hp engine, yet alone one that can push 800hp! Once I have fully overcome the teething troubles on my own engine, I can possibly look towards more power. Although, TBH, since she is a track car I have to take reliability into account as well. And even if I had the time to rebuild the engine after every race, I can't afford to I am sure of one thing though, come hell-or-high-water, my second engine will be blue-printed! I never had the time nor inclination to blue-print my first engine since I was concentrating on building an entire CAR, not just the engine. Now that the car is built (and I have a gearbox ) I can focus solely upon the engine.

Fantastic news
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Ta Gareth The WEEEEEEEEE of the gearbox, the SCREEEEE of the brakes, the hard suspension and the total absence of ventilation makes this the WORST car I have ever built. And I love her to bits!! My best project EVER - bar none.

Glad to see this is up and running though and your gearbox is working as planned. I told you it would work

The sound has to be shared though, I'd love to put a straight cut box on the S50 but I just need to pull my finger out and get the engine fitted into the new shell for a start, well that and a few grand for free to actually buy a gearbox wouldn't go a miss either

Thanks for your confidence Chris! I have yet to prove that the gearbox will hold together on the track, but yesterdays testing proves that I am at least 90% there. If something does break it'll simply be a case of rebuilding the box stronger. At least now I know that the fundamental design is sound. TBH, I am struggling to comprehend the fact that my car has a gearbox on it that I designed! I mean, honestly, what kind of idiot thinks that he can design his own gearbox ? I think that one of my inherent character traits/defects is that I am not scared to try anything once. It's only after I have done it that I stand back and wonder where the hell I ever got the idea that I could do such a thing in the first place (And not all my ideas pan out BTW).

Chris, If you do genuinely want to fit a straight cut synchroless gearbox to your S50, then my honest advice would be to seriously consider the pro's and cons. Without the synchroniser rings, gear-shifts are rough! Particularly down-shifts - double clutching is a must on my box on down-shifts. The increase in torque to the wheels (over a standard box with helical cut gears) is, however, quite significant. Helical cut gears typically exhibit up to a 25% loss due to the axial forces that they exert upon each other. There's none of that with straight-cut gears, so you can expect to see your wheel-torque increase substantially. I would also suggest picking your ratios carefully. I am very happy with mine BTW! And given the popularity of the S50, I am sure that there must be someone out there making a straight-cut synchroless equivalent of a Getrag to fit?

”˜Am in the process of organising a video camera everyone! Then I just have to learn how to turn video into an MPEG or similar.

[keri-WMS]

No worries! TRD did a "version" of the 3SGTE called the 503e, one-off blocks etc etc but were allegedly 1,200bhp in quali trim, the JGTC Supras ran them.










...the TRD 503e is to the 3SGTE what the Formula Atlantic TRD engines were the the 4AGE....re-engineered parts, 99% all from scratch.

[keri-WMS]

Great minds think alike - how about this!



Pretty good info here: http://mrtwo.mine.nu/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20267

[GeoffBob]

Bugger, I thought I was the only one. Oh well, I bet they didn't build their own gearbox

Great thread that. I am busy working my way through it at the moment. That JGTC engine is something to behold. Aside from the block there is very little on that engine that is common with mine.

BTW Keri, The pics above of the "3SGTE" are actually of a 503e race engine. The 3SGTE was based on the 503 due to its racing success. SFAIK, the 3SGTE block is the same as the 503e, but the head is entirely different. The GE head was developed for Toyota by Yamaha as a mass produced item to go into production cars. I have no idea what head went onto the 503e, but I can tell you that it is very very rare and special item. It looks nothing like the head on my engine.

[keri-WMS]

Bugger, I thought I was the only one. Oh well, I bet they didn't build their own gearbox

Great thread that BTW. I am busy working my way through it at the moment. That JGTC engine is something to behold. Aside from the block there is very little on that engine that is common with mine.

I think very few people build their own gearbox - after all that would just be daft!

I think the bore spacing is different slightly as well? I don't know a huge amount about it as I only found the info recently.

Toyota engines are such a slippery slope - you think you've found the "ultimate" each time but there always seems to be some ever rarer and more ridiculous version. It's hard to pick a point and say "that's as heavy/rare/expensive/fragile" as my power quest should go.

[GeoffBob]

I think very few people build their own gearbox - after all that would just be daft!

Indeed

I think the bore spacing is different slightly as well?

The 503e block and 3S block were the same SFAIK ?? See the edit to my post above with regards to the 503e engine. It's incorrect to call a 503e a 3SGTE, but so may do. Capable of way more power than my engine due to the entirely different head.

[keri-WMS]

I think the bore spacing is different slightly as well?

The 503e block and 3S block were the same SFAIK ?? See the edit to my post above with regards to the 503e engine. It's incorrect to call a 503e a 3SGTE, but so may do. Capable of way more power than my engine due to the entirely different head.

I'm not 100% sure TBH.... you're right that the head gives the engine part of it's name like 3S(block)-GE (GT head), GTE(GT head Turbo), or sadly in the case of my car (FE economy head).

[GeoffBob]

Ah yes, the 3S-FE, the only 3S motor that Toyota South Africa ever officially imported into SA, as sold in the local Camry.

Now here's the head I'm talking about:



I can see the similarity to my GE head, but that's about as far as it goes.

[MarkT]

Brilliant stuff Geoff! My old Corsa A sounded the absoloute bollocks with the straight cut box, had 45mm TB's too. Made me glad to be a man lol. Don't they sound great when you lift off and engine brake?

Just out of interest, how old are you? Thought you'd be late 20s to early 30s.

[gareth]

Fantastic news
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Ta Gareth The WEEEEEEEEE of the gearbox, the SCREEEEE of the brakes, the hard suspension and the total absence of ventilation makes this the WORST car I have ever built. And I love her to bits!! My best project EVER - bar none.

Whenever i get a new car, i improve it and tweak it and upgrade it until eventually, i've ruined it and it's no good as a means of transport any more!

Loving your honesty and i know exactly where you're coming from

[billgatese30]

In all seriousness Geoff, I'd rather keep the M3 largely a road car, that is capable of trackdays when needed. With this in mind, as epically heroic the car would be with a straight cut box, it just isn't practical. Plus I like the idea of keeping as stock looking as possible, having it whine like a bitch when pottering around car parks on tickover just isn't really that stealthy