M3 S62 4X4!!! Glutton for punishment!

[davethegoat]

[quote="turk"]Dave the sump you have linked is for 6 pot diesel. The x5 sump is nice and simple in theory.

Sorry mate, it was late!
http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E70/S ... indicator/

Looking back at your sump pic on the previous page, and above, it doesn't look so *easy*

[GermanGorilla]

Hi,

I am guessing that the M62 b44/46 sump
is the same bolt pattern as the S62 sump
as is the X5 Pan.

Why not obtain a S/H even damaged M62
Sump Pan and see what can be done before
you start chopping anything up ?

Personally, I think the X5 Sump with
alterations to clear cross member etc,
can be made to work by using the
Oil Pump from the X5 4.8i if the
std S62 Pump can not be made to work.

I would retain the std S62 Oil filtre housing
and make a bespoke S/S mesh filtre
on something like 75 micron mesh so that
Oil Flow is not restricted by a std filtre.

If you weld -16 A/N fittings down low
on the oil pan, you can loop oil lines
for a remote secondary sump that can
be sized and located to suit.

Pressure might drop a little, but slightly
lower Oil Pressure with increased flow
levels will be much better, than a High
oil pressure at the expense of less flow.

Just some ideas which hopefully are
helpful.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[turk]

All ideas are helpful mate

I have no issue with the x5 pan clearing the subframe. I will be using the Ix subframe which works nicely. The x5 oil pump also bolts on. However from the oil feeds etc in the block and te mounting points in the sump it looks like I will have to use the 4.4 pump rather then the 4.8. Is there a specific reason you mention the 4.8 pump?

The filter mods and secondary pump are great ideas which I hadn't considered. Would a 2 pump draw from the base of the pan and feed oil back to the main pump pick up or to the crank etc? Or would it go starlight back to the sump havin increased a bit of pressure?

Many thanks!!!

[GermanGorilla]

Hi,

The S54 is a Dual feed Pump.

Oil Pump front pick up, sucks up oil from
the smaller front sump area and then feeds
it to the larger rear.

The Second larger pick up picks up Oil from
the rear main area, and feeds the Oil filtre housing.

S65, S50 B32 all share this principal.

However-

If you designed your sump correctly so that
the main pick up was low in X5 sump, then
you could feed out at a higher level,
say 2/3rds up pan level,
no need for the pump to do this,
from your X5 sump with say AN 12 line to
the remote sump, location, and then with another
AN 12 return line set in the X5 Sump pan at say
2/3 rds down at the lower level.

This would act like a Balancing Resivoir and would
assist in making sure the main oil pick always had
plenty of oil.

Main Oil pick up needs to be approx 10mm off
the bottom of the Sump Pan so as to ensure you
do not suffer oil cavitation on pick up.

The Remote sump could be located elsewhere where
their is space etc. and could be sized and specced
to suit requirements.

If you were really clever, then you would find the
Oil return feeds from the Heads, G-Force openings,
and then link those returns together and feed them
nto the secondary Remote sump.

This would also act as a breather for the Remote sump.

Moving the oil about like this is good as
its removing any foaming caused by air and
also assists in keeping oil temps down as the
oil in being transient is able to reduce localiszed heat
otherwise absorbed by the thermal store of the sump/block.

Helps keep oil temps down.

I believe the 4.8is Oil Pump is slightly uprated,
but on saying that I would expect you can have the
flow rate of the 4.4 pump increased so that
your matching or close to flow rates of the S62
Pump.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[turk]

Great ideas!!!

How would I increase the flow of a 4.4 pump?

[GermanGorilla]

Hi,

Check out the 4.4 and 4.8 X5
pumps.

I would guess that they are the same
Housing etc, so in therory the 4.8
internals should fit the 4.4 housing.

If not then if you enlarge the
main oil pump pick up by a
couple of mill, all the way to
the pump, ie if its 18mm pipe increase
to 20mm, then fluid flow increases
in passing through a restriction, which
will be the original 18mm id into the
pump. [sizes quoted are for illustration
and need to be correctly sized]

This will increase the volume to the
oil pump, then you need to increase
the pump out volume.

As the pump is Crank driven then
different size Cog on the pump side
will speed up pump volume.

Will require longer chain as well.

Most Crank driven oil pumps run
at approx 40/50% of engine speed.
You need to determine oil pump
speed as you do not want to increase
it by much more than 8-10%.

I expect there is another BMW Oil
pump Cog that fits and will give
a faster oil pump rotation.

Ie] you want to increase the pump
speed to say 55/60% of engine
speed, if its 40-50%, whereby at say 7000 rpm
the pump will be roatating faster
and increasing the oil flow rate
by approx 10% and of course pressure.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[turk]

I would feel comfortable with a different cog but trying to make the input and outputs bigger sound like a more professional job. Surely I would need to change the channels leading up through the block too? otherwise I can't see any reason in enlarging the ports.

I should have the x5 pump by weds/thurs so will get the micrometer on the ports of that and the s62 to compare.

I think the S62 cog may even be perfect for the job as its already been calculated to feed the right volume/pressure of oil.

[GermanGorilla]

Hi,

If you Pump more oil [Volume]
through the same size oil Galleys [channels]
the Oil Pressure increases.

You then limit what pressure you want
via the Oil relief valve.

The Oil feed pick to the pump will be a
Pipe @ size 'X' which you can replace
with a Larger diameter Pipe.

Without seeing its difficult to picture,
but you can leave a small 'spigot' of the
existing pipe and fit the new larger diameter pipe
over the top. Also gives something to
fix to.

This increases your volume for oil pick
up, creates a restriction in line so the
flow of oil speed increases, just as it
flows to the pump, and if the S62 Cog
fits and works at the correct speed
v engine speed, then the increased
oil volume flowing to the filtre housing
oil distribution block will raise Oil
pressure.

You can then fine tune by shimming
up the Oil relief valve to suit, or
cutting down the spring if its way
to much.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[turk]

do u by any chance have any pics you can show as reference? It all sounds doable I just need to know I'm understanding you properly.

Will an Accusump solve my issues? or do u think the modified pump inlets etc will do the trick?

[GermanGorilla]

Hi,

Forget Accusump, its a Poor mans
Dry Sump.

It also something else to go wrong.

Get the X5 Pump next week and then can go
from there.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[turk]

thanks for the help bud!!!

[turk]

SO... Today:

I picked up my bracket for the gbox/tcase. Its looking very nice, so I mocked bolted it up.
I need a gear selector base bracket specific to the m3 boxes i think. Let me know if u have a one.








Now onto the car. I corrected my previous mistake regarding the subframe, flipped it round and when I put the sump in realised that I was fortunate enough for it to just bolt straight on.








In fact the Ix's subframe starts one bolt hole further forward then standard cars. This mean there is some boxing in and tapping to be done. Hopefully DaveTheGoat will be helping me here ;)









The steering column is really going to cause problems. Once a diff is bolted in place and the sump dropped in there is going to barely any room. In these pix it looks doable but when the steering rack is in the sump is pushed back an icy or so, and i think this will make the engine foul the bulkhead.




The e30 Ix strut towers has its strut top nut at 37cm from the scuttle lip. As you can see here i am going to be a fair bit out even with a caster adjustment plate.

[turk]

Im still after a v8 block for mocking up purposes too if anyone has one I can have?

scrap value sort of thing...

[turk]

Popped over to DaveTheGoats today to have a mooch at his conversion. Its looking very good too

I managed to snap this pic which handily will show where my diff and drive shaft will go, and how much of the floor pan will need to be cut out.

Cheers for all the tea Dave!

[davethegoat]

Yep, I'll pop down with my welder whenever you're ready. It'll be good to see it all in the flesh!
Best get an extra large box of teabags in though!

There's a metal stockholder reasonably close to me who'll supply just about any piece of metal in whatever length you need (not 6 metre lengths only, like a lot of places do ) Give me a shout when you figure out what you need and I'll pop down there if you like.

P.S. You left your remaining caramel biscuits here.... They've... ummm.... kind of dissapeared..

Cheers! Dave.

[turk]

lol. enjoy bud

I'll do some measuring up and let u know. I was thinking 10mm plate across the bottom and 7/8mm up the sides of the chassis rails... don't know what metal would be best to drill and tap the M10 bolts though.

Looking forward to properly getting started with this

cheers pal!

[davethegoat]

P.M'd.

[robbo86]

Epic! Be interesting to watch!

[turk]

Ok. OIl pump arrived today, still waiting on a few bits from Deutschland but good enough to start work at least.

So over all the x5 pump has 1x pickup, compared to the 5 on the m5 pump. Though I will say all of the M5 pick up holes are smaller then the X5 pump. Considering that not all the pickup are used at the same time Im somewhat comforted in the knowledge that the main pipe feeding the engine from the pump to block does intact have the same inner diameter as the x5 pump.
















However If you look at the way the pump is rested on the crank, it almost seem as if there needs to be spacers or similar. Otherwise the spacing between the bolt holes for crank seem to be farther apart then that of the pump mount points. But considering the 'V' shape, I'm guessing the M62 has a different crank cups (don't know what their real name is) with increased spacing for the purpose of mounting the oil pump, where as the S62's pump is mounted to the upper oilpan.



Any Ideas?

[Jonsku]

That looks challenging!
How is the power transmission from chain to pump done?

Could you take couple of pictures of the oilpump on the engine without the oil pan. Both sides & top, thanks!

[appletree]

Is the throw of the crank the same on the x5 and the s62? Just wondering why they would change location of the pump.

[GermanGorilla]

Hi,

Does the X5 Pump mount direct or
does it sit via a ''alloy craddle'' ?

Hard to tell from the Pics but it seems
as if the X5 Pump sits on a Craddle and
has 1 oil pick up set down in the lowest
part of the X5 Sump.

As your using the X5 Sump then multi
pick ups serve no purpose, plus the
S62 Sump Pick ups are to combat oil
surge away from the pick ups under
heavy cornering loads/Lateral G,
due to the Sump pan being shallower,
and the way the oil is feed back to the
sump.

I would test the Oil pump flow rates of the two
pumps using an electric drill.

I would guess that they will be close enough
not to be an issue.

The BMW S54 Oil Pump has a ''spider leg
craddle'' and is dual pick up.

If you have one check the flow rate of the
S54 pump as well, as it might be a part solution
with a lot less fabrication work.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[turk]

unfortunately I don't have an S54 pump to hand.

Alloy cradle wise There isn't anythinkg I have been able to identify on realoem. I will get some more detailed pics tomorrow of angle etc. I would certainly think a cradle or spacing plate of some sort will be needed.

On to progress:


In order to mount the subframe properly got these 40x40mm blocks drilled and tapped.


Davethegoat ( AKA Legend ) popped down and helped me get the boxing in done all nicely
Just need to make some drain holes and seal all the insides and that done

CHEERS DAVE!

In other news, new wheels arrived for the M3, They are nice, but still not sure if I like them on the car. Opinions?


More tomorrow!

[turk]

Here are some more pics of the oil pump.

Does anyone have corresponding pictures from an M62 or even better an M62 X5??

[turk]

Stole this off another forum, Have a look at the nuts, they're the heightened double threaded type. CAnnot find them on realoem to save my life!!!

[GermanGorilla]

Hi,

Is it not numbers 2 & 6 on the
attached link ?

http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E53/S ... ith_drive/

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[turk]

No, i don't think it is. I have bought those along with the pump and they don't seem to correspond to the links above.

this is the equivalent of what i think i need. I think its similar to whats pictured but its not whats been supplied.

[turk]

Also found this:

[turk]

The X5 Sprocket is a fair bit smaller than the s62 on, But it looks probable that if i do keep the s62 chain and sprocket it will sit perfect (chain length wise)

What do we reckon?




I fitted the suction tube, hoping it would give me a good idea of the spacing i need to achieve,
Sure enough:



Still struggling to find those stupid double ended bolts though!

[GermanGorilla]

Hi,

You need to work out the Cog ratio
v engine RPM.

The larger Cog [oil pump] driven via a smaller
Cog [crank] will make the pump rotate
slower than say fitting the smaller Cog you
have on the Oil pump.

How many teeth on the Crank cog v the
number of teeth on the Pump cog ?

As your using the 'S62' engine are you
100 % sure that the X5 Crank Cog for
the oil pump drive has the same number of
teeth as the S62 ?

Making the Chain shorter is simple, any
good Motorbike shop with Chain dollys
can do that if required.

Do all your Cogs have the same pitch
teeth and are the Cogs the same thickness ?
otherwise you will have chain issues.

Is there any Chain Tensioner to the Oil
Pump Chain out of interest ?

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[turk]

I will have to check all this later. One think=g i don't think i can check is the x5 crank cog quantity.

Im guessing it will be the same as any m60/62?

Ill post a request on r3v and see if anyone has one apart.

Cheers

[turk]

so I stole this off of another forum. Sorry if its yours, I mean thank you



From what i can see from this picture there are 20/21 teeth.
This is the same on the s62. The chain depth and pitch are also the same, though there is more total length on the s62 chain.

I have also found the spacer bolts. so should be able to sit the pump correctly.

So i think we are onto a winner

[glenn]

So i think we are onto a winner

watching with intrest bud

[turk]

4x4 v10 next glenn I dare you!

[glenn]

4x4 v10 next glenn I dare you!

you must be joking!

i'm really enjoying my build at the moment,
in fact, i'm so happy with how it's turning out, that i'm thinking this one is a keeper.