BMW E30 M-Tech cabrio, V8

[UweM3]

looks very good!

[GermanGorilla]

Hi,

Could one of you V8 Guys please confirm that the reason
for the Subframe Blocks, or down spacers, is so that
the normal V8 Sump pan clears the Subframe and Steering
rack without any modification ?

Or,

Is it due to the fact that if the engine was sat on engine mounts
at the standard subframe height, there would be, or there are height
clearance issues above ?

Then,

As the standard front wishbone would now be at least 20mm lower
on its center bearing, what is done about this, as the Castor and
camber on the wishbone outer joint at the bottom of the strut
would be significantly out of alignment if still using the rear
wishbone / Chassis bush location ?

Which,

Given the angle of the V8 and factoring in the exhaust manifolds
to be sat a further 20mm lower, then accessing the exhaust
manifold studs, nuts, for say a leaking or blown gasket, must be
almost impossible insitu ? let alone run with the bottom of
the Sump pan very low to the ground at the front ?

Not trying to be negative, just trying to understand the main issues
regarding a V8 Installation.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[glenn]

hello dan,
i managed to get the s62 in, without dropping the subframe and without the plenum touching the bonnet, although, both were very close.

[oze30]

The M60 fitted without spacers., but not with the acoustics cover (though mine was on home made mounts) I dropped mine down to clear a Z3 rack, but it didn't help. Needed to massage the manifolds to clear, but was unable to do so, so dropped the subframe and raised the mounts. Still didn't work and locked turning left on the track (not good!) Handling was out, even with E30 M3 suspension and tree house rear mounts.

yes, you will have to either drop the subframe to change gaskets or fix a blow, hence try to make sure it's all good when it's out of the car. Easiest way it to drop the engine in less box and start it. If it's blowing after the mods, then unbolt it and redo. Not the best idea, but probably the best solution.

If I could do it again,

I definately would.

[GermanGorilla]

Hi,

Glenn- that is what I thought.

I am struggling to understand the reason or the idea
behind the subframe spacer blocks, surely moddifying
the Sump Pan must be better, than altering suspension
pick ups and their alignment ?

Must be a fix for the exhaust manifold access as well ?
Not being able to access them any sense in situ
does seem ridiculous.

Was getting quite keen until these points came up !!

Will have to look back over your thread again Glenn, and
then pester you endlessly until complete !!!

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[glenn]

Will have to look back over your thread again Glenn, and
then pester you endlessly until complete !!!

no problem dan,
you doing a v8 then mate??

[oze30]

Subframe and sump do not need to be modified. They fit as is. You could drop the whole lot from below, or remove the wings and drill access holes through the inner wing/wheel arch to access the manifold studs, but as you can see from above, there's bugger all room between the strut towers. If you had a heap of wobbly sockets etc, you might be able to access the nuts. But unless you have double jointed ratchet spanners, it's highly unlikley you'll get to the nuts. It's a physical impossibility!

[Frenchguy]

I am struggling to understand the reason or the idea
behind the subframe spacer blocks, surely moddifying
the Sump Pan must be better, than altering suspension
pick ups and their alignment ?

There's at least one V8 swap with a modded sump:
http://schrauber.jimdo.com/motor_umbau.php

You could also cut a notch off the subframe then weld plates on it, like one guy on the board did for his S38 swap.

Must be a fix for the exhaust manifold access as well ?
Not being able to access them any sense in situ
does seem ridiculous.

This is probably not the main concern when doing such a swap.

[GermanGorilla]

Hi,

Having done a S50 B32 into a E30 M3 RHD, then not being able
to access the Exhaust Manifold Studs with the engine in situ
is just not an option.

Semi dry sump modification would help resolve clearance
issues, ala S54, and also put the main sump behind
the subframe instead of in front.

Better driving dynamics and weight distribution.

Just need to sort out accessing the header stud nuts and I am
getting all interested again !!!

Glenn- yes its starting to become interesting especially
given the prices of E39 M5's which will only get even cheaper
next year.

Just have so many bad memories from ownership a few years ago.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Jonsku]

Could one of you V8 Guys please confirm that the reason
for the Subframe Blocks, or down spacers, is so that
the normal V8 Sump pan clears the Subframe and Steering
rack without any modification ?

Or,

Is it due to the fact that if the engine was sat on engine mounts
at the standard subframe height, there would be, or there are height
clearance issues above ?

As the standard front wishbone would now be at least 20mm lower
on its center bearing, what is done about this, as the Castor and
camber on the wishbone outer joint at the bottom of the strut
would be significantly out of alignment if still using the rear
wishbone / Chassis bush location ?

I'm dropping the subframe for two reasons;
-To fit coolant expansion tank as in E34 and to be able to use strutbar
-To get the engine-gearbox-driveshaft-differential line more straight looked from the side of the car.

Of course it has drawbacks, mainly two;
-Oil pan comes 20mm lower
-Suspension problems

In my case the relative height of "tie rods" and "control arms" stays basically the same, because i'm raising the car by 20mm to compensate the dropping of subframe.
The handling of my cabrio isn't good for track, but it isn't built for track use so it's no problem.

I've adjustable height, camber, caster, toe in/out in the front, and in the back height, camber, toe in/out are adjustable so i can get the wheel angles / alignment to quite good numbers.
Of course getting the angles OK as the car sits on it's normal height isn't all, because the angles change when the wheel travels up and down. That's one of the reasons i've quite a hard springs (130kg in the front, 125kg in the back) so the "spring-travel" is quite small.

Hopefully you understand what i mean

Given the angle of the V8 and factoring in the exhaust manifolds
to be sat a further 20mm lower, then accessing the exhaust
manifold studs, nuts, for say a leaking or blown gasket, must be
almost impossible insitu ? let alone run with the bottom of
the Sump pan very low to the ground at the front ?

Not trying to be negative, just trying to understand the main issues
regarding a V8 Installation.

Accessing the exhaust-nuts isn't your biggest concern with this kind of swap. There're quite many repair-related things you've to give up when doing this kind of swap. Yes, you'll have to lift the engine out to change exhaust-manifold gaskets or clutch, but that's the price you've to pay and i'm more than willing to pay that.
I replace all the gaskets and normal wearing parts so i won't have to do it again "ever".

Feedback and questions are always welcome!

[Jonsku]

I am struggling to understand the reason or the idea behind the subframe spacer blocks, surely moddifying
the Sump Pan must be better, than altering suspension
pick ups and their alignment ?

Well, you can surely fit dry-sump oilpan if you want but it's lots of €€€ and additional components..

[Jonsku]

Having done a S50 B32 into a E30 M3 RHD, then not being able
to access the Exhaust Manifold Studs with the engine in situ
is just not an option.

Semi dry sump modification would help resolve clearance
issues, ala S54, and also put the main sump behind
the subframe instead of in front.

Well well, how often do you change your exhaust-side gaskets?

Modding the sump to the back of the subframe in E30 M60 combination is quite impossible.. Oil pump comes so low etc so you'd have lots of problems.

Here's one E30 S62 project with dry sump..
http://www.zatzy.com/projekt/300951-lim ... udget.html

[oze30]

Dry sump is not worth it really. You don't need it unless you're tracking your car. The only advantage is dropping the engine lower towards the subframe, But you'll still have the same issues with exhaust studs. You can just barely get your hand between the side of the head and the strut bracing. It gets worse as you go down, unless you make the exhaust studs sit level with the chassis rail. there is just physically no room to get to the studs.



If you lower the engine, you still have the problem of getting in to do the exhaust studs. There is no easy way about it unless you space frame the car and do it that way.

if you look on the left of pic, you can see the strut tower, the bracing and the chassis rail, all of which is straight sided, so there is no difference whether you have the engine up or down.

Why do you need to move the sump?



there's not much room to work with. In an E36, yes, you need a rear sump. On an E30, a front sump. The sump above is an X5 M62 sump. Again, the bulge is in the wrong place for an E30.

the link you posted above makes the sump flatter at the back, dropping it a few more mm. It's still a normal M60 sump.



Bad pic, but you can see that the stock M60 sump is pretty much sitting in the middle, at the very front of the subframe. You have another 15-20cm behind that for the rack, and end of the subframe, which, by comparison to the X5 sump, won't let you have a big sump.

Not trying to sway you away from doing this conversion, but if the whole reason you don't want to do it is due to exhaust manifold studs- How often will you be changing them? They are Metal gaskets and don't crumble like the crap M20 ones.they have a ridge that gets flattened when you crank down on them, thus sealing the outlets.

Jonsku, Look at my avatar, you can clear the engine with a strut brace, unless you use the plastic cover (Or you could trim it) Personally, I left it off as it down't look too bad without it on.

[Jonsku]

Dry sump is not worth it really. You don't need it unless you're tracking your car. The only advantage is dropping the engine lower towards the subframe, But you'll still have the same issues with exhaust studs. You can just barely get your hand between the side of the head and the strut bracing. It gets worse as you go down, unless you make the exhaust studs sit level with the chassis rail. there is just physically no room to get to the studs.

Yeah well, it's always good to have even some space between the engine and hood / subframe. And the driveshaft-line is good to be ~straight.

Jonsku, Look at my avatar, you can clear the engine with a strut brace, unless you use the plastic cover (Or you could trim it) Personally, I left it off as it down't look too bad without it on.

Yes you can, barely. But no way you can fit the expansion tank. Anyways, i'm aiming at this kind of look so i had to drop the engine. Also the E39 M5 6-speed gearbox fits much nicer in there ;)

[Andyboy]

Sounds like drama........

The V8 also fits in the E36 but they do need subframe spacers. Also, when you space the subframe down the steering column joint doesn't quite fit the rack so this had to be extended. Alpina got around this by casting a special sump/oil pick up with the bulge at the back.

My V8 manual conversion set up (box/fly/clutch/mounts etc) is going to be available shortly.

[Frenchguy]

Sounds like drama........
The V8 also fits in the E36 but they do need subframe spacers. Also, when you space the subframe down the steering column joint doesn't quite fit the rack so this had to be extended. Alpina got around this by casting a special sump/oil pick up with the bulge at the back.

The one off sump in Alpina B8s has nothing to do with how high or low the subframe sits, it was designed because the OEM sump would simply foul the E36 subframe.

[Andyboy]

Sounds like drama........
The V8 also fits in the E36 but they do need subframe spacers. Also, when you space the subframe down the steering column joint doesn't quite fit the rack so this had to be extended. Alpina got around this by casting a special sump/oil pick up with the bulge at the back.

The one off sump in Alpina B8s has nothing to do with how high or low the subframe sits, it was designed because the OEM sump would simply foul the E36 subframe.

Read it again. I quote:

"Alpina got around this by casting a special sump/oil pick up with the bulge at the back"

That to me implies the standard bulge is at the front.

Fit a standard V8 into an E36 and you need to space the subframe down because as it stands, the engine is too tall due to the sump. All V8's come with a front or central sump bulge, E36's do not.
The spacers needed are 30mm deep and this also puts the driveline out of alignment. It's a horrible bodge up. You can reduce this to a far more acceptable 20mm by moving some bits such as the idle control valve.

I would say the X5 sump could be made to fit with some work.

[oze30]

Sounds like drama........
The V8 also fits in the E36 but they do need subframe spacers. Also, when you space the subframe down the steering column joint doesn't quite fit the rack so this had to be extended. Alpina got around this by casting a special sump/oil pick up with the bulge at the back.

The one off sump in Alpina B8s has nothing to do with how high or low the subframe sits, it was designed because the OEM sump would simply foul the E36 subframe.

Read it again. I quote:

"Alpina got around this by casting a special sump/oil pick up with the bulge at the back"

That to me implies the standard bulge is at the front.

Fit a standard V8 into an E36 and you need to space the subframe down because as it stands, the engine is too tall due to the sump. All V8's come with a front or central sump bulge, E36's do not.
The spacers needed are 30mm deep and this also puts the driveline out of alignment. It's a horrible bodge up. You can reduce this to a far more acceptable 20mm by moving some bits such as the idle control valve.

I would say the X5 sump could be made to fit with some work.

There's no way you can fit the V8 into an e36 without messing stuff up. You'd need to drop it more than 30mm, I tried. didn't work.

X5 sump has the bulge/driveshaft section right on the middle of the E36 subframe, so no go there either.

Alpina sump is NOT bulged at the back, it is bulged at the front. It is essentially the same as the stock oem sump, just the bottom pan and oil pick up modified (Cost=700 for the sump pans and 400 for the oil pump) The front section is moved further forward, and the engine mounts move the engine slightly more forward in the chassis. from memory, Alpina didn't use the spacers.

E30.de mounts will fit, just places the sump pan in the wrong place.

[Andyboy]

There's no way you can fit the V8 into an e36 without messing stuff up. You'd need to drop it more than 30mm, I tried. didn't work.

You should have tried harder! I've seen a car with such spacers which I measured. It was an absolutely shocking bodge up job. It was an 840Ci 4.0 with a 530i 5 speed box. I recall seeing a B8 sump at Alpina on a visit there, and the bulge looked very much like it was at the back.
Having said that, the E38/E39 have a front sump bulge yet the M52's they use have rear bulges. Maybe you can post up a pic of the B8 sump?

[oze30]

I would have, but I deleted all teh stuff when I couldn't fit it in.

I didn't want to lower the subframe, hence giving up. And yes, I remember someone mentioning you saw one, but it was a total abortion of a car!

[Jonsku]

Oh yeah! I got the exhaust manifolds made! Woohoo



I know they look a bit crappy at the moment but i've to get them welded properly and then sand blasted and painted. Anyways, they were quite a bitch to make (especially the drivers side) but nothing major. Those were the first exhaust manifolds i've ever made

Here're more pictures.


And what comes to E36 V8; my friend is doing one at the moment, with 300mm.de mounts and Alpina oilpan & -pump:
http://exorcist.1g.fi/kuvat/Autot/TMP/vtek.jpg/medium

It's far from "plug'n'play" but doable, hopefully it'll be up and running next summer (and mine, too!)

[oze30]

Andy, What's your email. I can't add files to this post.

[PiLLLe]

Jonsku are those ordinary steel tubes? Aint you affraid the'll deform and crack due to the extreme temperature changes?

[Jonsku]

They're normal "waterline" tubes. Thickness is over 2mm so no problems with cracking

[fuzzy]

it looks like the tubing they use in buiding interiors for high pressure fire systems?

[PiLLLe]

So what's the inner diameter that you used? It looks to me like it somewhere arround 40mm
I'm planing to use 42mm stainlees, but it's fookin expensive

[oze30]

Andy, What's your email. I can't add files to this post.

Look at jonsku's link in his post.

[Jonsku]

So what's the inner diameter that you used? It looks to me like it somewhere arround 40mm
I'm planing to use 42mm stainlees, but it's fookin expensive

Inner diameter is 37 or 38mm. The exhaust port is 33 x 40mm and original pipes are around 35mm so it's good size

Stainless is really expensive, but normal steel is cheap. These manifolds cost me around 30€

[Andyboy]

what car is the master cylinder and frame out of? on that german site it says the e34 v8's have the brakes at the front but i cant see the master cylinder when i look at photo's i can see what appears to be some sort of manifold block

my local breakers has an old 730, would this be usefull for brake bits or is it only the five series ?

Yes it's out of E34 V8 model, they all have the "remote brake booster & cylinder", just try looking some pictures on internet and you'll see it.
My brake linkage is partly modified 540 setup with some selfmade bits.

No they don't! RHD cars have a small hydraulic master cylinder on the bulkhead. It bolts to the bulkhead and has a pressure line from the PAS pump.

Here's a photo of the RHD V8 M/C set up. You can buy this very set up in a couple of weeks!

[oze30]

Andy,

Does that system work the same as the e32 Hydro setup? How would it work if there's no room between the block and fuse box? Do you remember seeing my setup at aces? Not much room.

[Andyboy]

It's a refinement of the old E32 V12 set up, yes. You would need to mount it on a bracket at the front like the big servo set up (which is not fitted to RHD cars). I imagine the bracket would be easier to make due to the vastly reduced size and weight.

[citizensnips]

whats the brake set up in your v8 andyboy? is it on the bulkhead or mounted at the front?

[Andyboy]

On the bulkhead as shown - it's my car!

[citizensnips]

Ah, so i wont have to make up a crazy front of engine bay master cylinder setup if i get the brakes off a 530 say?

how come your getting rid of your conversion? fragging the car or putting something faster in? how much you looking at for it? might try and persuade my mate its the way to go seems as his engine is out already

[oze30]

No.. you will have to make the big funky bracket for the front. There is absolutely no room next to the fuse box for anything. I had enough room for brake resevoir hoses for my dual MC setup, and that was pretty much it. Fuel lines and brake lines. That was it.