M42 Turbo

[waz56]

There seems to be very little information on the M42 turbo seems to be alot of discussion no creation. Wondering if any one knew where i could get the metal head gasket from? Is it avaliable in the UK?

Do you know of any build threads?

Information appreciated

Warren

[rix313]

There are a couple on M42club.

First smack in google brings up this company for MLS: http://www.performanceunlimited.co.uk/index.htm

[toby]

http://www.metricmechanic.com/pdfs/metr ... ooklet.pdf

[Ant]

I know a man with one

Lee in Essex has an M42 B18 turbo, did very good figures on the dyno too IMHO 100HP gain from 12 psi, cant remember his handle on here though lol !

low boost ok on stock CR TBH, 12+ will need a CR drop, if the engine is 120K + miles I'd do the headgasket as a matter of course.

swap out the 2 part exhaust valves for single whilst its off, and check the roof of the C/Chambers around the valve seats for cracking, common on these and a real PITA if a seat drops out later on.

Dont be tempted into thinking a low CR is the way forwards either, the effective CR is a function of the engine CR + boost so as a V rough example.

7.5:1 CR +20 psi = 220 BHP
9.0:1 CR +10 psi = 220 BHP

I'd go for the 9.0 CR everytime, better allrounder

Are you sure you want that Uber thick gasket now ?

[waz56]

No i understand about the CR. I will look at those two links now, Any one know what diff i should be using for this set up. Want roughly just over 200BHP.

Will most likely buy a second engine to strip down and overhall, but i will not be doing any upgrades on internals they seem to be fine handling that power on fairly low boost.

Any one know a certain size of turbo i should go after, mostly looking at a VW Turbo as i built a 1.8 20vT before and may use a K03s should cope with up to 16psi long term and with a fairly high compression ratio i wont have to run any where near that.

So you think i wont have to run the thick gasket then. Thats good to hear from some one who knows a bit. Ill look into it now.

Thanks o the repies, and sorry for my slow reply, been researching into suspension set up. Just ordered most of it this weekend.

Warren

[rix313]

Thanks o the repies, and sorry for my slow reply, been researching into suspension set up. Just ordered most of it this weekend.

Expand


This might be of interest to you. I currently have the parts to build what will hopefuly be an M42/M44 hybrid low comp engine using standard parts from both engines to achieve a CR of about 9:1 maybe a little less. I'm not in any manic rush to build it as have stacks of other stuff to do but whithin the near future I should have the bottom end sorted so should be able to produce some figures.

[waz56]

Rix313, would like to hear some more info on that.

Only recently got a BMW, had to be an e30, so i just sold my 20v Turbo MK1 golf and now want a new project so i thought i would start off progressivly. Got a 318is with alot of the 325 goodies on. First on my list was suspension as its got 40mm lowering springs with shocks and ride is like a boat. So ordered coilovers, e46 rear top mounts, front eccentric wishbone polybushes, new track rods and ends (mine are ceased). Hopefully will be able to set up a reasonably well handling car with that. once all on i will take to my welder for a custom upper strut brace front and rear.

Then on the list is transmission as my clutch has alot of judder and gearbox syncro has gone in second. i was hoping to buy a box and engine, fit the box with a new larger or uprated clutch and Build a low compression engine. Under 9.5:1 any way and run roughly 250.

Turbo set up i will not be doing till end of 2010/start of 2011 but trying to collect information on the components most likely to fail with boost and where to get the correct parts from. dont really want to double up a standard head gasket if i am going to do it ill do it properly.

i will definatly be running megasquirt V3 as i used it on my last car and was very impressed. Planning on running a switchable map this time for fuel econemy. So just any inoformation out there would be good to collect and price up.

Any help apprecitated
Warren

[waz56]

ok been doing a bit more research into it now.

this thread has a little info but to what extent i want to believe to i dont know,
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-forc ... idate.html

I think if i am looking at running around 200 to 220 i should keep standard internals and run a triple layer metal head gasket or double up standard head gaskets which i can guess is not advised.

Using a metal head gasket will not achive a huge amount i dont think. unless i get a thick enough one to drop compression. I need to find more info on pistons, on one thread i read you can use m54b30 pistons they have the same bore as the m42 but a longer stroke. I need more info on the piston size to find out if they will drop the compression at all. Custom pistons are the other option if i wanted to run lower compression but i cant seem to find any Uk prices they are all US and same goes for headgaskets.

A build thread would be good at this time? think a recent PBMW had an m42 turbo in it but ideally want to keep the budget fairly low.

Post up if you got any good info ill continue posting up any i find. Cheers

Warren

[rix313]

Geoffbob did some calculations and he worked out the M54B30 pistons would drop the CR sufficiently.

If you're looking for 200-220bhp you might be ok with all standard parts even HG. Matt and Ash both ran their Eaton M45 super charger builds on stock engines and both achieved figures of around 205bhp (the engine was actualy producing around 230bhp but the drag the super charger created made an end figure of 205bhp).

[MarkT]

Could the M54B30 pistons be used to make a low comp M52? Or are the compression heights the same or simmilar?

[waz56]

Did he manage to fit them? do the gudgeon pins match up? will the bolt straight ontoyexisting rods, if so then this will be my plan and ill run standard head gasket.

I bet finding those pistons will not be the easiest of tasks either ill have a look into it this week then within the month i price up a list and post it up.

Any one got any more info will be appreciated?

What can be used to uprate the fuel pressure? a second pump inline, i know i will need bigger injectors and most people are saying you need an adaptor that will be next on the list. What ones are commonly used?

[MarkT]

Been looking into piston sizes myself and they appear to have the same size pins at 22mm. I expect you'll have to go direct to BMW for the pistons though. None on ebay.

[GeoffBob]

Did he manage to fit them? do the gudgeon pins match up? will the bolt straight ontoyexisting rods, if so then this will be my plan and ill run standard head gasket.

I bet finding those pistons will not be the easiest of tasks either ill have a look into it this week then within the month i price up a list and post it up.

Any one got any more info will be appreciated?

What can be used to uprate the fuel pressure? a second pump inline, i know i will need bigger injectors and most people are saying you need an adaptor that will be next on the list. What ones are commonly used?

Warren,

Sorry, only just picked up the end of this thread, so haven't read the whole thing yet. Apologies if I repeat anything already said above.

All the BMW pistons are available from Mahle. You can search the Mahle catalog here

I think Rix313 got a price of around £100 for a set of 4 M54B30 pistons if memory serves.

I was originally going to run a turbocharged M42B18 in my R5Turbo project (the one here that uses E30 front and rear suspension subframes) but had to opt for a Jap engine due to space constraints (There just wasn't enough room for the exhaust, brakes and steering on the RHS of the engine, and Jap engines have the exhaust on the left, which made my life so much easier).

I am afraid I am a bit of a Garrett nut (genuine, not Chinese copy), so if you asked me to recommend a turbo I would have to say Garrett (probably a GT2860RS for your engine). However, on a budget, you'd do well with a Holsett stripped of an old Volvo. Gunni can advise you well when it comes to Holsett turbos. At a complete guess I would say something along the lines of an HX35. I think this is what Chu346 may have used on his turbocharged M40, see here

As for the fuel pump, you might consider a Walbro, as used by Theo325 on his E30 with Nissan SR20DET engine, see here. I have a similar system with two pumps (supplying either end of the fuel rail) on my own car. I'd recommend an adjustable fuel pressure regulator (FPR) between the fuel rail and the return line in order to set your fuel pressure. And don't forget that one side of the FPR must be biased at manifold pressure so that your fuel pressure will rise up and down as the manifold transisitions from vacuum (throttle closed) to boost (throttle open) in order to keep the pressure across the injectors at a constant value.

Regards
Geoff

[GeoffBob]

Just read some of the earlier posts.

Will most likely buy a second engine to strip down and overhall, but i will not be doing any upgrades on internals they seem to be fine handling that power on fairly low boost.

In that case, get an M44 and get details from Rix313 on what he is doing. All stock components combined from M42 and M44.

That setup will work well with a turbo

[GeoffBob]

Any one know a certain size of turbo i should go after, mostly looking at a VW Turbo as i built a 1.8 20vT before and may use a K03s should cope with up to 16psi long term and with a fairly high compression ratio i wont have to run any where near that.

No doubt in my mind,

Garrett GT2860RS

The original "disco potato".

see here for details on the version with the 0.86 A/R turbine housing. And don't let that internal wastegate fool you! It is very well designed and as good, if not better, than many external wastegates.

If you want something that spools up a bit faster and is a bit more "street" compatible (but with a bit less top end power), then rather look at the version with the 0.64 A/R turbine housing, see here

Hope this helps
Geoff

EDIT: And I don't work for or have anything to do with Garrett. I just really like their turbochargers.

[waz56]

expensive turbo's ill look into them, my friends got one on his 20v T

This m44 set up is something to consider then, i will pm that member thanks for that.

Heres a very short and basic list i am thinking of the top of my head then.

-M44/m42 engine will i need both to mix and match parts from?
-Turbo (preferably GT2860RS)
-Injectors including adaptoprs
-Fuel pressure regulator (adjustable)
-Various intercooler pipes, including vacuum lines.
-Intercooler (whats commonly used to fit behind e30 Mtech front bumbers?)
-Boost controller (depends on budget manual or electronic)
-Fuel pump set up
-Flywheel 325i with clutch and other mods needed?
-Dump/recirc Valve
-Head gasket (standard depending on CR)
-Megasquirt V3 (wont have to run an AFM i dont think?)
-Exhaust manifold + Downpipe
-Diff - What's the best one

Probably missed alot out but will add to it. Comments appreciated on any of the above. Thanks

Warren
P.S. Cheers for detailed reply Geoff i read your build thead recently, great work.

[toby]

Turbos are costly aren't they?!

To keep costs down you could go with standard CR for now with low boost. If/when something gives, you can rebuild with low CR later (or just swap in another standard lump, which makes a strong practical/financial argument for building the turbo setup around a standard engine).

Megasquirt V3, I think I'm right in saying that you wouldn't have to run an AFM but MAF and/or MAP sensor(s). Probably running both would give the best driving characteristics. MAP on its own can feel a bit on/off at the throttle sometimes.

[MarkT]

Have you thought about a turbo off of an Evo? TD0516G, good for about 360bhp on the evos and with a larger exhaust housing good for 400bhp. Not too bad for a £100 turbo!

[waz56]

All of my mates have scoobys and evo's sure i could find something. when i last ran megasquirt i used only

Throttle position Sensor
Crank Sensor
Intake Temp Sensor
Coolant Temp Sensor

Think that was it, may be one more and that ran very smoothly.

I would rather spend that bit more and have an engine i know will last on 250 or so than be running an engine close to limit, less chance of detonation if i drop the compression ratio and overall id be more happy in the long run.

[GeoffBob]

All of my mates have scoobys and evo's sure i could find something. when i last ran megasquirt i used only

Throttle position Sensor
Crank Sensor
Intake Temp Sensor
Coolant Temp Sensor

Think that was it, may be one more and that ran very smoothly.

And a MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor, I would expect. Without the MAP sensor (or any form of air flow metering) you would be running what is essentially an Aplha-N setup, which is non-ideal on a turbocharged engine since the mass of air inducted is a function of the state of spool of the turbocharger, and only, to a very vague first approximation, on the position of the throttle.

I would rather spend that bit more and have an engine i know will last on 250 or so than be running an engine close to limit, less chance of detonation if i drop the compression ratio and overall id be more happy in the long run.

Gunni speaks volumes with regard to achieving 400hp from the 6-cylinder 12-valve M20B25 on stock BMW internals + ARP headbolts. From one of the other threads:

A 8.8:1 compression M20B25 with ARP´s will run 400hp+ without anything else added (bar clutch and such of course) on a normal paper head gasket.

Given that the 4-cylinder M42 is a 4-valve per cylinder engine, thus with higher volumetric efficiency (VE), and has a slightly higher capacity per cylinder (450cc compared to 416cc) compared o the M20B25, then I think you can expect 290hp to be your limit from this 4-cylinder engine on stock internals. This likewise assumes you take care of additional cooling issues given that a 4-cylinder block+head has substantially lower heat capacity than a 6-cylinder block+head.

I would therefore say that, following Rix313’s recipe of M42 + M44, that 250hp is a sensible and not over ambitious number to aim for.

Warren, whichever turbo you choose (and there are many to choose from) do your best to get a compressor and turbine flow map for the unit before you buy anything! You need to analyse how your engine and selected turbo will work together as a unit else you can very easily face issues such as surge (where the air flow over the compressor blades become turbulent), excessive turbine speed (turbo running too fast), or excessive heating (due to both adiabatic heating and operating the turbo in an inefficient region of the flow map). While the last problem can be countered with an oversized intercooler, the first two can result in a failure of the turbocharger). I can point you to documentation on the web that will teach you how to do this analysis yourself if you want to. I have already helped Appletree and Rix313 with their supercharger projects in a similar way.

[waz56]

GeoffBob, that infomation would be great, i will select a two turbo's after doing some research then have a look and analyse those two turbo's to decide which is best suited.

Still need to clear up what the m42 and m44 set up is, the thread becomes very confusing. Is it an M44 eninge with the M42 crank and what will the compression ratio then drop to as there are like 6 different CR's involved with that arguement?

Cheers for the help
Warren

[GeoffBob]

M44 engine with M42 crank so far as I can remember. Yes, there was a bit of "discussion" that developed in that thread . I'll have to have a look at it myself to refresh my memory and get back to you.

The 2007 Garrett catalog has an excellent introduction to turbochargers and will teach you what you need to know about using turbo flow maps. Right click here and select "save target as" to download the catalog.

If you are really keen to do a proper job I would also recommend buying either A. Graham Bell's book "Forced Induction Performance Tuning", or Corky Bell's book "Maximum Boost". These can be ordered on line or found in most good motor bookshops, and will teach you all sorts of other things like how to size your intercooler correctly, how to calculate your CR, how wastegates and blow-off valves work, how to combat turbo lag, how to tune a turbo engine, and all sorts of other good things that will help keep you from destroying your turbo too quickly

[waz56]

Will definatly get one of those books I am doing a degree in motorsport next year anyway so it will definatly have it's place. My friend is willing to sell me for cheap a low milage td05 evo 8 turbo. What do you think?

Warren

[GeoffBob]

Will probably work very nicely Warren, but I'll have to scratch around for data on the TD05 before I can say for sure. I think that I have data on it somewhere, or otherwise any data that anyone else wants to post up on the Mitsubishi TD05 would be appreciated.

[MarkT]

Mitsubishi OEM Turbo Specifications

Flow Rates @ 15psi:
TDO4-9B-6CM2 265 CFM
TDO5-12A-8CM2 320 CFM
TDO4-13G-5CM2 360 CFM
TEO4-13C-6CM2 360 CFM
TDO4L-13G-6CM2 360 CFM
TDO4L-15C-8.5CM2 390 CFM
TDO5H-14B-6CM2 405 CFM
TDO5H-14G-8CM2 465 CFM
TDO5H-16G-7CM2 505 CFM
TDO5H-16G-10CM2 505 CFM
TDO6-17C-8CM2 550 CFM
TDO6H-20G-14CM2 650 CFM
TDO7S-25G-17CM2 850 CFM
TFO8L-30V-18CM2 1200 CFM

Max Output:
TD05-14B (stock 1st gen) 275-300hp @ 21 psi
TD05-16G (small) 345-365hp @ 22 psi
TD06-16G (large) 365-385hp @ 22 psi
TD06-20G 430-450hp @ 22 psi
T25 (stock 2nd gen) 235-250hp @ ?? psi
T3 (super 60)/T2.5 hybrid 265-280hp @ ?? psi
T3 (super 60)/T2.8 hybrid 270-320hp @ ?? psi

Evolution 1
Turbo = TDO5H”“16G-7
Nozzle Area (cm2) = 7
Exhaust turbine = Inconel (steel alloy)
Compressor = Aluminium, 60mm wide

Evolution 2
Turbo = TDO5H”“16G-7
Nozzle Area (cm2) = 7
Turbine = Inconel (steel alloy)
Compressor = Aluminium, 60mm wide


Evolution 3
Turbo = TD05H”“16G6-7
Nozzle Area (cm2) = 7
Turbine = Inconel (steel alloy)
Compressor = Aluminium, 68mm wide


Evolution 4
Turbo = TD05HR-16G6-9T
Nozzle Area (cm2) = 9
Turbine = Inconel (steel alloy)
Compressor = Aluminium, 68mm wide


Evolution 5
Turbo = TD05HR-16G6-10.5T (GSR)
TD05HRA-16G6-10.5T (RS)
Nozzle Area (cm2) = 10.5
Turbine = Inconel (steel alloy), Titanium alloy (RS)
Compressor = Aluminium, 68mm wide


Evolution 6
Turbo = TD05HR-16G6-10.5T (GSR)
TD05HRA-16G6-10.5T (RS/rs2)
Nozzle Area (cm2) = 10.5
Turbine = GSR - Inconel (steel alloy), Titanium alloy (RS/RS2)
Compressor = Aluminium, 68mm wide


Evolution 6 : Tommi Makinen Edition
Turbo = TD05RA-15GK2-10.5T (GSR)
TD05HRA-16G6-10.5T (RS/rs2)
Nozzle Area (cm2) = 10.5
Turbine = Titanium alloy for both RS/RS2/GSR!
Compressor = Aluminium, 65mm (gsr) - 68mm(rs) wide


Evolution 7
Turbo = TD05HR-16G6-9.8T (GSR)
TD05HRA-16G6-9.8T (RS/RS2)
Nozzle Area (cm2) = 9.8
Turbine = GSR - Inconel (steel alloy), RS/Rs2=Titanium alloy
Compressor = Aluminium, 68mm wide


Evolution 7 GTA
Turbo = TD05-15GK2-9.0T
Nozzle Area (cm2) = 9.0
Turbine = Inconel (steel alloy)
Compressor = Aluminium, 65mm wide


Evolution 8
Turbo = TD05HR-16G6-9.8T (GSR / USDM)
TD05HRA-16G6-9.8T (RS/RS2 & NZDM) or 6MT:TD05HRA-16G6-10.5T (model unknown)
Nozzle Area (cm2) = 9.8
Turbine = USDM EVO 8 & JDM GSR =Inconel (steel alloy),
RS=Titanium alloy.
Compressor = Aluminium, 68mm wide

Evolution MR aka "8.5"
GSR = TD05HR-16G6-10.5T or TD05HRA-16G6-10.5T (Ti Alloy option)
RS = 6MT:TD05HRA-16G6-10.5T or 5MT:TD05HRA-16G6-9.8T
Nozzle Area (cm2) = 10.5 or 9.8(RS-5speed)
Compressor = Aluminium, 68mm wide


Evolution 9
USDM & JDM = TD05HRA-16G6C-10.5T
Turbine: GSR / GT = Inconel alloy, RS = Titanium alloy
Compressor: GSR / GT = Aluminium, RS = Magnesium Alloy
(??) mm wide (to be verified.)

Nozzle Area (cm2) = 10.5 (note: to be confirmed that RS 5MT has 10.5)

RS E9 turbo part number 1515A059 (approx cost 250,000 yen from Mitsi Japan). *Warning* There are reports of RS magnesium compressor wheel failing if boosted above stock boost.

More Evo 9 Turbo info:
... * New more efficient & larger Compressor preventing compressor surge
... * Better pump gas efficiency
... * Turbine Nozzle Area (cm2) = Large 10.5 Hotside (single flapper)
... * Improve actuator design

Borrowed from evolutionm.net

[MarkT]

IIRC TD05 16G is capable of creating 2bar of boost

Figures are given for 22psi in the above post

[waz56]

Going to have a clearout in the garage this month then hopefully get the an engine to strip and get some ideas. So if any one has an M44 block for sale let me know.

Cheers

Aiming with more research, for september time have the engine in and turbod

[rix313]

I know UweM3 posted up a while ago he had an M44 bottom end laying about might be worth pinging him an PM.

I'm going to try get the bottom end done soon so can do some tests and post up some actual CR figures.

[chips]

This is a very interesting thread. I'm planning almost exactly the same setup for my M42 sometime towards the end of the year.

M42club has a few guys claiming to run 300bhp on standard internals. No idea what they spent on their setups but I see no reason why 250bhp is not acheivable without spending loads.

For megasquirt, there is a guy on M42club who will supply you with a fully plug'n'play V3 built into a motronic ecu case.

[waz56]

Just to let people know this isn't a dead thread I am still hoping early next year to collect all the internals for a forged set up. So I'll let you know when I begin.