Supercharging my IS engine management remap ?????????

[TamTom]

Got to the point now where i need to start thinking of engine management!
I have installed the eaton m45 with 250cc injectors and 325i afm.
what will be the best method of tuning the car to run right, fuelling etc?

Heard a lot about megasquirt emerald etc or remapping by a tuner?
i would like to do what i can on my own and learn along the way if possible,

thanks, Tam

[JdmFanBoy]

Yo Hector! haha its Ad ;) Might be able to come in to help out tomorrow, how you gonna get the beast out of college? If you need a proper recovery truck give us a text I might be able to sort something out

[brooklynballer]

Is this at Bromley college?

[TamTom]

nice one mate good to see im not in this alone!!!!!!!!!

Recovery wise i'm gonna get matt in on that 1!
Cheers Bro!!!!!!

[TamTom]

Is this at Bromley college?

Yes mate Bromley college,
Whos this

[brooklynballer]

Is this at Bromley college?

Yes mate Bromley college,
Whos this

Nobody you would know I go to the college and saw it and had a look under the bonnet

[rix313]

PM'd you about an ECU

[GeoffBob]

I have installed the eaton m45 with 250cc injectors and 325i afm.
what will be the best method of tuning the car to run right, fuelling etc?

Step 1 is to lose the 250cc injectors !!!! As I said on your other thread:

At 0.85 bar boost on an 1800cc M42 motor you are looking at around 240hp total engine power output. At an AFR of 12:1 that equates to at least 1220cc per minute of fuel. Since the M42 is a four cylinder engine, that equates to four 300cc/minute injectors running at 100% duty cycle. Since you don't want to exceed an injector duty cycle of 85%, I'd recommend you at least fit 350cc/minute injectors. 250cc/minute will not be sufficient (this assumes that you will in fact be running 0.85 bar of boost). Also, don't expect to see that 240hp I mentioned at the flywheel. You can expect to spend at least a good 25hp driving your supercharger. This also assumes that you can run the engine to this sort of power level without encountering detonation, and without an intercooler and lower compression ratio, I doubt that you will.

You will max out your 250cc injectors at around 0.5bar boost on your current setup. After that you'll run lean and burn pistons. If you want to run teeny weeny 250cc injectors then you'll have to change your pulley ratio in order to reduce your boost.

Ignore this advice at your peril.

[TamTom]

Thanks, Geoff.
Still trying to get the car running,
until then im not really thinking of uprating anything!
I seemed have flooded the chambers by overfuelling which is why the idle problem occurred!
I have now replaced the 250cc "uprated injectors" with the originals, i have also put the old AFM back on and it has proven to make the car run a lot better.
I think i was jumping ahead too fast on getting it running with all the uprated stuff and it obviosly was too much of a change for the ecu!

Now i need to concentrate on getting it to run and idle.

I would like to ask about the overfuelling issue though as i know you are highly educated in this field.

If i am using a dump valve and a recirculating dump valve when the air is dumped to atmosphere is the ecu still feeding the engine with fuel for the air that has been accounted for?

Also what is the difference with a MAF and AFM or are these the same products?

Thanks Geoff for your time.
Tam.

[GeoffBob]

If i am using a dump valve and a recirculating dump valve when the air is dumped to atmosphere is the ecu still feeding the engine with fuel for the air that has been accounted for?

Oh yes, most definitely so. This one's caught a lot of people out. If your your AFM has accounted for that amount of air, then you must keep that air in the system (in other words, you can't just let it leak out to the surrounding atmosphere). If you do leak it out then your engine will run rich. Alternatively, if you leak air into the system (after the AFM) your engine will run lean.

Also what is the difference with a MAF and AFM or are these the same products?

Very similar, but not the same. An AFM (air flow meter) is a quasi mechanical device with a flap that opens in proportion to the pressure drop between the inlet and outlet ports. The flap turns a potentiometer (variable resistor) and it is from there that your signal is derived. Also, AFM's basically report on the volumetric airflow flow (cubic meters per minute) through the device, which is not the same as mass air flow (kgs or lbs per minute)

A MAF (mass air flow) meter reports the mass flow rate (well at least its supposed to). Some use a wire that is heated by passing a current through it. As air flows over the wire it cools the wire, causing the resistance of the wire to change. Your airflow signal is thus derived by monitoring the voltage across the wire as a constant current flows through it. Well, that's one type of MAF. You also get the "vane" type, which measures the resistance of a wire as the wire deforms as the air flow pushes against it. This is the type of MAF (iirc) that BMW use. GM (vauxhall) and some others use the "hotwire" type.

[GeoffBob]

I think i was jumping ahead too fast on getting it running with all the uprated stuff and it obviosly was too much of a change for the ecu!

Wise words Tam. Anything that you do to change the amount of air that your engine inducts, or the amount of fuel it injects (or at least the amount of fuel the ECU "thinks" it is injecting) will throw your engine for a ball of chalk.

[TamTom]

i have seen supercharger setups where there are both dump valve and recirc valve in the same setup, is this due to a sifferent type of air metering?
MAP sensor maybe?
What would i need to change if i wanted to keep both running as it seems to work better with a dump to atmosphere, i also like the effect, never had a forced induction car!

[GeoffBob]

i have seen supercharger setups where there are both dump valve and recirc valve in the same setup, is this due to a sifferent type of air metering?
MAP sensor maybe?

Would most likely have a MAP and MAT sensor located on the plenum (after the throttle). That way you can blow off as much as you like without affecting your fueling.

What would i need to change if i wanted to keep both running as it seems to work better with a dump to atmosphere, i also like the effect, never had a forced induction car!

A bypass valve is the common mechanism for dealing with the excess air produced by a roots pump (such as the Eaton) at both idle and at cruise. Some Eaton roots pumps conveniently have a bypass valve built in. When you lift off the throttle pedal (closing down the throttle valve) the vacuum that forms in the plenum sucks on the bypass valve actuator diaphragm, causing the bypass valve (a simple butterfly valve) to open, allowing air to bypass the roots pump.

If you have a BOV as well then it should be there only to let off excess (above spec/dangerous) boost pressure, especially if you are using an AFM fitted before the Eaton air inlet.

[TamTom]

seems like it is constantly releasing to atmosphere through the blow off valve!
this is what could have caused the car to flood with fuel!

[mattyb]

tam tom not sur if you got your ecu sorted but have you heard of miller performance they do a war chip that makes the standard ecu mapable for m20s may do it for your engine, just a thought.

[GeoffBob]

seems like it is constantly releasing to atmosphere through the blow off valve!
this is what could have caused the car to flood with fuel!

Definitely.

Ideally you need an aftermarket ECU taking its inputs from a MAP and MAT sensor, plus TPS.

If you are stuck with the stock motronic and an uprated AFM then:
a) you need to keep your intake system CLOSED by fitting a bypass valve (no blowing off!), and
b) you need your motronic remapped to account for the more air that you are flowing.

Simply "proportionately scaling up" both your AFM and injectors does not guarantee that you will run at the correct AFR or ignition timing angle across the range of usable RPM.

[chaz_316]

ive seen the car at bromely college been meaning to pop over and take a look, 1ve gt a red e30 not sure if u have seen it, onli there on a wedesday tho

[appletree]

Hi, Geoff, I've also been helping tam tom with the running issues.

I told him to fit the atmospheric dumpvalve as the recirculating valve had wasn't flowing enough air and the charger and pipework was under a lot of load.

I also said about the fact that if he was using AFM that the car wouldn't work correctly but that it would idle better while he worked out other issues. I wasnt sure if the ecu was fueling according to the AFM or if it looked at TP aswell

either way the amount of pressure was causing the dump valve to lift like a pressure relief valve which wasn't good.

the much easier way to do an eaton set up is to have the throttle up stream of the charger like all the big car manufacturers it removes lots of issues and general works smother and better IMO.

[GeoffBob]

I told him to fit the atmospheric dumpvalve as the recirculating valve had wasn't flowing enough air and the charger and pipework was under a lot of load.

What type and what diameter bypass valve?
Where is/was it located?

Would also be a lot easier to make work if the there was an electromagnetic clutch on the Eaton pulley.

[GeoffBob]

the much easier way to do an eaton set up is to have the throttle up stream of the charger like all the big car manufacturers it removes lots of issues and general works smother and better IMO.

relocate your throttle-body to BEFORE your supercharger’s air intake. This is the common way of plumbing in an Eaton and avoiding the problems that you have experienced

[rix313]

Would also be a lot easier to make work if the there was an electromagnetic clutch on the Eaton pulley.

Eaton did do a charger with an electromagnetic clutch. Some one on here had one fitted to an M20 engine.

[brooklynballer]

ive seen the car at bromely college been meaning to pop over and take a look, 1ve gt a red e30 not sure if u have seen it, onli there on a wedesday tho

The red 316i or 318i.
I seen it i thought it was part of the college lol

[GeoffBob]

Would also be a lot easier to make work if the there was an electromagnetic clutch on the Eaton pulley.

Eaton did do a charger with an electromagnetic clutch. Some one on here had one fitted to an M20 engine.

Was standard on the M60 Eaton fitted to Jags iirc. Both electromagnetic clutches and bypass valves can be purchased from Eaton agents and retrofitted to any Eaton supercharger.

What you find fitted "stock" to your Eaton largely depends what car you pulled it off.

Rich, I get the impression the OP is trying to make the best of what he has, without having to buy lots of extra bits. Very few options though with his chosen configuration. Some modifications will have to be made or it just won't work.

As Shakespeare said, "A supercharger doth not a supercharged engine make"

[TamTom]

Rich, I get the impression the OP is trying to make the best of what he has, without having to buy lots of extra bits. Very few options though with his chosen configuration. Some modifications will have to be made or it just won't work.

Geoff i dont have an issue with spending money just dont want to spend money on the wrong things and still have the same problems.
Think my best bet is on an engine management with a map sensor so i could keep the configuration and just clean it up a bit!

Where can i get the standard recirc valves for the eaton and the electronic clutch?

[TamTom]

what megasquirt would i need to run my car best?
been offered an emerald but think it is a bit too much for the scale of project!
Also with the megasquirt it has a built in map sensor!
What u think people?
how hard are these to fit?

[TamTom]

ive seen the car at bromely college been meaning to pop over and take a look, 1ve gt a red e30 not sure if u have seen it, onli there on a wedesday tho

The red 316i or 318i.
I seen it i thought it was part of the college lol

I think ur getting mine mixed up with the 4 door, the guy who works in the workshop (sean) owns that 1.
I had to take it outta the college cause everyone was more interested in what i was doing.

[GeoffBob]

Geoff i dont have an issue with spending money just dont want to spend money on the wrong things and still have the same problems.

Think my best bet is on an engine management with a map sensor so i could keep the configuration and just clean it up a bit!

Where can i get the standard recirc valves for the eaton and the electronic clutch?

Sorry Tam, didn't mean to be insulting. I remember what it was like for me when I was studying and I had no option but to use what I had to hand. New shiny bits were totally off my menu

Fitting a "speed-density" based ECU would be a huge step in the right direction. Not only do you remove the requirement for an AFM or MAF, but you also finish up with easily adjustable fuel and ignition maps. Take note, ECU’s that take their input from a MAP and MAT sensor (located on the plenum after the throttle) are of the type defined as "speed-density". And don’t forget the MAT sensor, especially if you don’t have an intercooler! Speed-density type ECU’s require an input from both a MAP and MAT sensor to calculate the mass of air drawn into your engine, in order to calculate the amount of fuel to inject.

Also, with a speed-density based ECU you could leave your intake plumbing as it is at the moment. It wouldn’t be ideal, but it would work. A by-pass valve would certainly be quieter than a BOV and having an electromagnetic clutch (to disengage the Eaton while cruising and at idle, for example) would save you some money on petrol.

[GeoffBob]

Where can i get the standard recirc valves for the eaton and the electronic clutch?

Eaton are a US company. Check out their website for authorised agents in your area. Alternatively, Britpart here (for Landrover bits) are authorised Eaton agents. I doubt they know very much about Eatons though, so you may need to locate your part-numbers on the Eaton site, and then forward them on to Britpart so that they can trackdown and import your bits from the US for you.

Alternatively, have a nose around your local scrappy for either the MinicooperS (M45) or Mercs with the "Kompressor" badge (both M45 and M62) to see if you can find the bits you need. SFAIK, you can transfer the electromagnetic clutch from an Eaton M62 to your M45.

[chaz_316]

yer mines the 316i. I think yours was there for the first few weeks of college? was defo a 3 door i was lookin at in the yard, cause i asked peter (1 of the lectures) if i could steal some parts for mine, thats when i heard it was charged. Mines a red H reg if u see me come say hi. Wanna have a look under the bonnet will help me decide weather i follow suit or just drop a 2.5 in on tb's lol

[brooklynballer]

ive seen the car at bromely college been meaning to pop over and take a look, 1ve gt a red e30 not sure if u have seen it, onli there on a wedesday tho

The red 316i or 318i.
I seen it i thought it was part of the college lol

I think ur getting mine mixed up with the 4 door, the guy who works in the workshop (sean) owns that 1.
I had to take it outta the college cause everyone was more interested in what i was doing.

Yer i saw your one.I looked under the bonnet and saw ur engine mate u got black rocker cover?

[Dylano]

Thought about using a rising rate fuel pressure regulator to get you going? Not the best solution at all, but the cheapest and easiest. For eaton parts this guy from supercharger solutions in scotland is good
william.walker71@btinternet.com
Suppliers for eaton parts are very hard to come by in the UK, took me a while to find a new by pass valve for my DASC 318Ti. He is a really good fella and sorted me one off a jag which I modified to fit.