Best brake servo to use?

[MrGCC]

Hi everyone,

I am sure many of you might be getting bored from reading my posts but I had another question which I cant see anyone has answered before (directly that is)

I understand that the Clio brake master cylinder is a good one to use if doing the M52 engine swap. So I am doing the M52 engine swap with the M50 intake manifold but also changing to the e36 328i front brakes with the 318ti rear brake set up.

Would the Clio one be good enough for this?

Thanks in advance!

[jmc330i]

You mention both the Clio servo and master cylinder... which do you mean?

The Clio servo will be fine.

[steve_k]

you use the year 2000 clio (plastic wings) servo, the M/C is entirely your choice,

most use the 25mm M/C from an e32(?) 7 series,

[skintsaint]

you use the year 2000 clio (plastic wings) servo, the M/C is entirely your choice,

most use the 25mm M/C from an e32(?) 7 series,

Anyone have a part no for this? Cheers

[steve_k]

i haven't got the part number for either of them,

but if you get the servo for a plastic wing clio some have an adjustable push rod on them, which means that if needed you can wind it out to make sure that it connects with the piston in the M/C.

also when it comes to the 25mm M/C you can a vw t4 non abs M/C as there plenty about & they are cheaper that the 750iL one.

if you use the vw M/C then you will need to remove the end of the push rod in the servo, but that simply unscrews easy enough.

[RKB]

I'm using a Clio Servo with an Audi 25mm MC and Toureg brake bottle.

Can't remember the MC part number or what car it's for, will have a look at receipt when I get a chance.

From what I researched it depends on the brakes and whether the bigger MC is right for your setup?

[RossDavies]

Can the correct clio master cylinder be used along with the servo it came from? Two of the holes would have to be blanked off...

[steve_k]

i wouldn't know about using the clio M/C as most folk (myself included) are now using the e90 servo & 25mm M/C as it's plug & play aside from needing 2 m10 female to m12 male adapters.

[fixedwheelnut]

i wouldn't know about using the clio M/C as most folk (myself included) are now using the e90 servo & 25mm M/C as it's plug & play aside from needing 2 m10 female to m12 male adapters.

I am just trying this set up on my E30 with M30 b3.5, as the clevis pin distance is shorter I found an option on an American forum, use an E28 clevis pin clamp which is longer and can be cut down to the right length and welded in to the E90 Servo.

I renewed the engine bay pipes anyway using;
34322283835 right pipe
34326755328 left pipe [which is actually a rear one but the right length to route to the T-Piece.]
34341111435 T-piece
two thread adapters available from Car Builder Solutions https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/brass-uni ... 0x1-female

I haven't fitted the engine yet but have heard I may need a 2002 reservoir to clear the air intake pipes so I will update as and when

[RossDavies]

i wouldn't know about using the clio M/C as most folk (myself included) are now using the e90 servo & 25mm M/C as it's plug & play aside from needing 2 m10 female to m12 male adapters.

Oh wow do you have the part numbers to hand please?

[steve_k]

hmm i never had a problem with the clevis pin when i mounted my e90 servo, all lined up perfectly.

also they are the same adapters i used but i got mine from an LPG shop at £2.50 each.
as for the T piece i used an AN3 one as i'm using full braided steel lines.

[steve_k]

i wouldn't know about using the clio M/C as most folk (myself included) are now using the e90 servo & 25mm M/C as it's plug & play aside from needing 2 m10 female to m12 male adapters.

Oh wow do you have the part numbers to hand please?

here you go

https://www.lpgshop.co.uk/reduction-adapter-m12-to-m10/

even ahs the correct convex seats.

[RossDavies]

i wouldn't know about using the clio M/C as most folk (myself included) are now using the e90 servo & 25mm M/C as it's plug & play aside from needing 2 m10 female to m12 male adapters.

Oh wow do you have the part numbers to hand please?

here you go

https://www.lpgshop.co.uk/reduction-adapter-m12-to-m10/

even ahs the correct convex seats.

Thanks steve, when you refer to the 25 mm master cylinder, do you mean the one that comes on the e90?
Or do you buy a different one?

Sorry im new to this kind of stuff

[steve_k]

Oh wow do you have the part numbers to hand please?

here you go

https://www.lpgshop.co.uk/reduction-adapter-m12-to-m10/

even ahs the correct convex seats.

Thanks steve, when you refer to the 25 mm master cylinder, do you mean the one that comes on the e90?
Or do you buy a different one?

Sorry im new to this kind of stuff

thats fine don't worry we all start some where.

yes, if you look on ebay there's a few on there, anything from £20 up to about £150.

[flybynite]

Thanks steve, when you refer to the 25 mm master cylinder, do you mean the one that comes on the e90?
Or do you buy a different one?
Sorry im new to this kind of stuff

Yes you can use the one that comes with the E90, you will have to alter the pipes a bit.

Only thing is it is a 25mm master, same as the E32 one that people used as an upgrade. it does, however give a much firmer brake pedal on a standard brake setup. Some don't like it and it does take a bit of getting used to as it feels like the booster has failed.

Keep that in mind first time you take it out

[RossDavies]

Thanks both. Ive gone ahead and order an e90 servo with mc, and two of them pipe adaptors. I might have to get a clevis pin from the local fastenings shop as the mc i bought doesn't come with one, and the yolk an the e90 looks wider than the e30 in the pictures.

[steve_k]

Thanks steve, when you refer to the 25 mm master cylinder, do you mean the one that comes on the e90?
Or do you buy a different one?
Sorry im new to this kind of stuff

Yes you can use the one that comes with the E90, you will have to alter the pipes a bit.

Only thing is it is a 25mm master, same as the E32 one that people used as an upgrade. it does, however give a much firmer brake pedal on a standard brake setup. Some don't like it and it does take a bit of getting used to as it feels like the booster has failed.

Keep that in mind first time you take it out

the only alterations that are needed are the reducers for the lines & a T piece if you don't have ABS.

as for the peddle feel? well yesterday when i finally got my brakes to work (till i found where the leak was) the peddle is very firm & because i'm using mk3 mondeo st220 calipers & audi a3 discs slightly shorter than normal, if anything it felt like the upgraded brakes i had on my old mk5 golf gti, i had to learn to apply lighter pressure otherwise i'd come to a dead stop.

[steve_k]

also in regards to the clevis fork?

when i fitted mine i had to use a couple of 5mm spacers to fill the gap & ensure there was no slack or play in the link.

[RossDavies]

My s50 b32 is arriving today. Im so stoked, going to swap the servos before starting on anything else, as i stiil want to use the car untill i have ALL the parts.

[steve_k]

My s50 b32 is arriving today. Im so stoked, going to swap the servos before starting on anything else, as i stiil want to use the car untill i have ALL the parts.

you got a build thread?

[RossDavies]

Not at the moment, i was thinking about doing one though.

[martauto]

Not at the moment, i was thinking about doing one though.

We all love a build thread

Mart.

[reggid]

is anyone using the e90 booster and M/C (25/22) with big caliers 60mm fr and 40mm rr e.g. e36 m3 calipers (or e34 540/m5) with 5lug or similar? how did the pedal end up? very light and long travel or is it ok?

[flybynite]

is anyone using the e90 booster and M/C (25/22) with big caliers 60mm fr and 40mm rr e.g. e36 m3 calipers (or e34 540/m5) with 5lug or similar? how did the pedal end up? very light and long travel or is it ok?

I haven't looked at it but was planning to do the same (E36 m3 calipers all round). Best way will be to find out what the size of the E90 M/C is and compare it to the size of the standard E30 (23mm) one and the usual upgrade E32 (25mm) whose behaviour is known.

If I have it right the E90 M/C is 25.4mm so would be too hard on normal E30 brakes as it would be worse than the E32 M/C but for the slightly bigger pistons in the E36 M3 should be about right.

IIRC the E36 M3 had a 25.4mm M/C and that was fine for the 10 years I had one.

Obviously booster will not affect pedal travel, only the assistance feel given

[reggid]

is anyone using the e90 booster and M/C (25/22) with big caliers 60mm fr and 40mm rr e.g. e36 m3 calipers (or e34 540/m5) with 5lug or similar? how did the pedal end up? very light and long travel or is it ok?

I haven't looked at it but was planning to do the same (E36 m3 calipers all round). Best way will be to find out what the size of the E90 M/C is and compare it to the size of the standard E30 (23mm) one and the usual upgrade E32 (25mm) whose behaviour is known.

If I have it right the E90 M/C is 25.4mm so would be too hard on normal E30 brakes as it would be worse than the E32 M/C but for the slightly bigger pistons in the E36 M3 should be about right.

IIRC the E36 M3 had a 25.4mm M/C and that was fine for the 10 years I had one.

Obviously booster will not affect pedal travel, only the assistance feel given

the e30 is 48/33 caliper piston and 22.2/17.5 M/C piston for F and R respectively

the e36 M3 and e34 540/m5 is 60/40 caliper piston and 25.4/25.4 M/C piston for F and R respectively

comparatively this means the the M3 front M/C piston is relatively smaller than the stock e30 one by virtue of the area ratio of the pistons in the caliper vs pistons in M/C and the rear is comparatively larger

The rear M/C piston size with the 40mm rear pistons seem to be 25.4mm atleast on the older stuff e36/e34 etc so its a relatively small M/C piston though not as small as stock e30 with 33 piston and 17.5 M/C but was wondering if the travel would be higher than the stock e30?

[flybynite]

I see what you are getting at, as far as the bias goes, the newer setups are more rear biased so I don't think it will be a problem as there is more affecting the resultant bias anyway. You can always put a reducing valve in the rear to tweak the bias if needed.

As far as the pedal, I think you have to forget the E30 stuff and match your calipers to the M/C. I am tempted not to over think it, E36 M3 had 25.4 M/C and as I said I drove one for years. I think it will be fine.

Are you doing anything with the ABS? I am planning on using the non-M 4-channel MK60 from the E46 as I have a known working system in the donor car and it seems to be a significant improvement over the earlier E30/E36 systems.

[reggid]

I see what you are getting at, as far as the bias goes, the newer setups are more rear biased so I don't think it will be a problem as there is more affecting the resultant bias anyway. You can always put a reducing valve in the rear to tweak the bias if needed.

As far as the pedal, I think you have to forget the E30 stuff and match your calipers to the M/C. I am tempted not to over think it, E36 M3 had 25.4 M/C and as I said I drove one for years. I think it will be fine.

Are you doing anything with the ABS? I am planning on using the non-M 4-channel MK60 from the E46 as I have a known working system in the donor car and it seems to be a significant improvement over the earlier E30/E36 systems.

yes i agree the 25.4/25.4 M/C is a proven setup.

i guess i was curious whether anyone actually had tried the e90/92 25mm/22mm setup on the bigger calipers to know if the travel was ok in practice.

from what i gather the e90/92/93 stuff is 57/44 mm caliper pistons. The 44mm rear caliper to the 22mm rear is considered less ideal than 40mm so this is favourable. Then the 25.4 m/c is used with the big caliper from factory so it should check out ok as being comparable to stuff out there.

for reference some like to use the 25/25 M/C with the e30 48/33 calipers which makes for a short firm pedal probably excessively so and this is evident when you calculate the area ratio of that setup.

i am using stock ABS. What is involved and swapping it out?

[flybynite]

Unfortunately to find someone who has done it you may have to resort to FaceAche unless Dan chimes in as I think he has done it.

But looking at it from above it you put e36 M3 brakes with an E30 M/C you will get a long pedal, just as you get a really short pedal with standard brakes and E32 M/C

If you get the ratio close I don't think you notice any change, especially if you take as much flex and sponginess out of the system as you can.

I have swapped bigger piston brakes on to quite a few cars (mainly VAG) and not changed the M/C. In theory it should give a longer pedal but never noticed. When you look at it manufacturers often fit more than one size of brake piston to the same M/C.

The MK60 swap is a common thing in a lot of cars including MX5 but will need new lines and some wiring. If lines need doing anyway then it is less work. Lots of write ups on wiring it out there like this one.

https://www.miataturbo.net/suspension-b ... de-100731/

Was discussed on here too a while ago, but a lot has been learned sense

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=243043&hilit=MK60

It makes more sense if you have no ABS or a M5x swap as you can tie it into the OBD port to check function of things like sensors etc. Might not be as worthwhile if you have M20 and working E30 ABS but thought I would mention it as it the MK60 works really well.

[reggid]

Unfortunately to find someone who has done it you may have to resort to FaceAche unless Dan chimes in as I think he has done it.

But looking at it from above it you put e36 M3 brakes with an E30 M/C you will get a long pedal, just as you get a really short pedal with standard brakes and E32 M/C

If you get the ratio close I don't think you notice any change, especially if you take as much flex and sponginess out of the system as you can.

I have swapped bigger piston brakes on to quite a few cars (mainly VAG) and not changed the M/C. In theory it should give a longer pedal but never noticed. When you look at it manufacturers often fit more than one size of brake piston to the same M/C.

The MK60 swap is a common thing in a lot of cars including MX5 but will need new lines and some wiring. If lines need doing anyway then it is less work. Lots of write ups on wiring it out there like this one.

https://www.miataturbo.net/suspension-b ... de-100731/

Was discussed on here too a while ago, but a lot has been learned sense

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=243043&hilit=MK60

It makes more sense if you have no ABS or a M5x swap as you can tie it into the OBD port to check function of things like sensors etc. Might not be as worthwhile if you have M20 and working E30 ABS but thought I would mention it as it the MK60 works really well.

i will be able to tell you as have just bled the system as good as possiible and will be testdriving in the next few days. i have the e34 540i front caliper and e36 m3 rears with an e93 booster and M/C. Pedal feels ok but hard to tell when you are stationary and cant judge the deceleration, tbh i dont remember how it felt before but i had the stock M/C with wilwoods

[reggid]

Well first drive didn’t go so well. Pedal has very long travel and relatively light. I’m going to redo the following didn’t follow 100% hopefully it’s just a bit of air

https://bmwe30cabriolet-wdm.blogspot.co ... r-abs.html

[flybynite]

Well first drive didn’t go so well. Pedal has very long travel and relatively light. I’m going to redo the following didn’t follow 100% hopefully it’s just a bit of air
https://bmwe30cabriolet-wdm.blogspot.co ... r-abs.html

Can you get a firm pedal with the engine off? Does it then go long when you start the car?

[reggid]

Well first drive didn’t go so well. Pedal has very long travel and relatively light. I’m going to redo the following didn’t follow 100% hopefully it’s just a bit of air
https://bmwe30cabriolet-wdm.blogspot.co ... r-abs.html

Can you get a firm pedal with the engine off? Does it then go long when you start the car?

Feels ok with engine off tbh but you are pushing against the booster spring

[reggid]

Pumping the pedal lightly/slightly and quickly helps firm it up temporarily and travel is greatly reduced.

i am not 100% sure the M/C holds pressure as when i press hard it may ever so slighty keep going down but its very very slight.

i think the first thing suggests possible air in the system and the latter possible M/C on the way out as it is a used one of unknown age.