M30 conversion guide - WIP; input required!

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Ziggy
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Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:57 pm

Here's a start to a comprehensive M30 conversion guide. The bits in bold definitely need input, from me will do in some cases (ie where I've not dug stuff up yet), but other people's help & experience is needed too! I want to get as many photos in here as possible too. All input appreciated! :D




Engine
E32/E34 vs E28etc
Basically, you want the engine out of an E32 / E34. It's newer, better (bigger valves), & easier to fit than that out of an E28 (due to a coolant elbow on the back of the E28 head, & the need for the E32/E24 sump & oil pump with either engine). I had the option of a free E28 engine, but turned it down because of the above! There are parts of an E28 that are well worth having though - see below.


Mounts
.de mounts are the most commonly used, copies are also available. Roughly £150, & let you bolt the engine straight in. You can use standard M20 rubber mounts (others?). There are 2 positions on the .de mounts - I'd recommend using those that place the engine furthest back (AKA 'position 3'). You may have clearance issues with the bulkhead - I didn't, but other people have solved them with judicious application of a lump hammer... If you use the furthest forward position, you'll have virtually no room for a radiator, as well as worse weight distribution.
Some people have also had issues with clearance to the brake servo - again I didn't, there's usually nothing a dab with a grinder on the inlet manifold can't solve. Failing that, a mk1 golf GTI servo is a straight swap (It is smaller in diameter but slightly thicker, makes the pedal a little harder as it's capacity is slightly lower but it has no effect on the car's overall braking force).

WRT actually putting the engine in the car - I'd do it with the gearbox attached, as bolting the two together under the car would be challenging to say the least (changing the clutch will also be a horrible job under the car - buy a new one now!) It's easily doable this way round, providing your engine crane goes high enough.
Alternatively (if you really want to be able to remove the gearbox on its own), you can bash the transmission tunnel floor up where it meets the bulkhead and chop the top bellhousing bolt lug off of the gearbox.


Gearbox
(anyone used an auto?)
(any issues with the E34 box differing from E28?)
E34/E28 manual box. M20 boxes won't bolt up to an M30, but some M10 boxes will.
You'll need the clutch to match the gearbox, & a flywheel to suit. Easiest way is to get it all out of one car! But if you've got a auto donor, don't forget you'll need a spigot bearing for the end of the crank too. E28 M535i flywheels are lighter than E34 ones, so go for one of these if you can! You'll want the clutch to match (the E34 cluch won't work with an E28 fly for example) - I'd certainly recommend a new clutch while it's out & easy to change...
The M30 'box bolts to the shell using standard E30 gearbox box mounts. The 325i gear linkage is needed (320i is no good), to make the gear lever stick up in the right place...
M20others? clutch slave cylinder can be used.


Prop
You've got a few choices here - none being the obvious 'best'
1: E30 M3 prop. This has the correct flange to bolt to the E30 diff & M30 box. Depending on your engine position though, it may well not be short enough to fit. It's an expensive option if you then need to get it shortened. You can make it a little bit shorter by removing the lock nut from the middle - don't forget to align the 2 halves (white dot on each) when you put them back together though.
2: E36 328i prop with reversed centre bearing
3: Custom - companies like reco-prop (www.reco-prop.com) can shorten / fabricate a prop for you. I had one made using an E28M535i front half, & E30 rear half. This was slightly too long for me to use as standard (the 2 halfs mate ok though), so reco-prop shortened the front half, fitted a new centre bearing & balanced & painted it for me. That cost £150 ish.
4: Gearbox flange swap - you can swap the flange on the back of an M30 box to enable using a standard E30 prop. The M30 uses a bigger flange (& coupling) for a reason though...
5: M10 box/prop


Diff
You can use any E30 diff. E28 / E32 items would require extensive mods to fit.
Small case diffs don't last long though (ask Gareth), & anything shorter (higher number) than a 3.64 will probably be too short to ideally suit the M30. 3.64 is close to ideal on a standard engine, with 3.46 etc more suited to those with more power...

Wiring
Using the M30 engine loom, some minor modifications are needed... Temp sensor - the brown temperature sensor on the M30 block will need swapping for an E30 (M20 only?) item.
Extend coil connection - you'll probably find the coil will need to move, & the 2 (non-HT) connections to it will need extending. Not a difficult job, & best left until you know exactly where you'll mount it & how long they need to be.

Facelift wiring mods (these apply to those with a facelift shell) - the engine will run without doing them, but for everything to function correctly, the following are needed;

To get the 'economy swingometer thingy' working you need to swap pins in the M30 loom:
Pin 3 (black and white) and pin 8 (black and purple).

To get the electric windows and sunroof to work with the doors shut and for the heater blower to work at all you need to connect the black and green wire from pin 15 on the E30 C101 to a small spade connector on the starter motor.
rev counter?

Prefacelift mods (these apply to those with a pre-facelift shell);details
C104/C101 rev-counter & econometer mods

Starter cable - If you're using an E32 engine, you'll need the +'ve cable to the starter motor from your E30, as the E32 power terminals are on the other side of the engine bay (& much nearer the starter motor). E34?

Power distribution block - there is a power distribution block on the E32 (E34?) loom, near the ECU, that needs a direct live feed to it.

Using the M20 engine loom...


ECU
The standard E32 / E34 ECU should be used. The M30 loom will allow it to be fitted under the dash, but getting all of the connectors through the bulkhead is a PITA! The loom is also slightly short - you may have to rotate the ECU to allow it to bolt in place.


Plumbing
Image
You'll need an E32/E34 top hose, with the built-in T-piece to the heater matrix. This T-piece goes to the bottom connecton on your heater matrix.
You need another T-piece to go in the pipe from the thermostat housing to the header tank (from an E28; BMW part number # 11 53 1 272 866). You can then connect from here to the top connection on your heater matrix.

Header tank
If you've got a pre-facelift shell, you'll need to move your header tank - the stock location is in the way of the air intake. A facelift m20 header tank sits nicely on the nearside wing - you'll need to extend the level sensor wiring round to it. It can obviously stay where it is if you're starting with a facelift m20 shell!


Radiator
You can use a standard E30 radiator - a new 325i rad will probably do the job. An M30 is a big engine in a small E30 engine bay though, & heat is an issue, so a bigger radiator is preferable.
An E28 m535i radiator can be had from GSF for £150ish (IIRC), is loads bigger than an E30 rad and fits perfectly. There are even unused holes in the shell that you can bolt it up to - anyone would think BMW intended it to go there...
An E34 radiator can also be used, but it's significantly thicker than the E28 item, so you may have clearance issues to the front of the engine. To mount the E34 radiator you can use the standard 325 bottom plastic 'cup' mount on the right hand side and another right hand side one on the left hand side, riveted to the body as it doesn't clip in quite perfectly. The radiator sits in this like it was made to measure!
You'll need to make some kind of mount for the bottom of the radiator. I made a simple mounting bar that bolts onto the standard mounting points, and locates on the bottom of the E28 radiator, so no modifications were needed to the shell or rad.

The crankshaft pulley will be very close to the radiator whichever you use. Unless you're keeping the M30 aircon setup (& I very much doubt you are!), you can chop the air conditioning belt drive part of the pulley off, simply by running an angle grinder down the middle of the 'V', it removes the spot welds and the two halves fall away.


Fan
You will never fit an M30 in an E30 engine bay with the viscous fan on the front! Electric is the way forward. You'll have to get creative with how you mount it, but plenty of cable ties & simple brackets should sort you out. Mount it in front of the rad obviously, & make sure you wire it up the right way round!
You can get an electric fan from pretty much any car. I don't even remember where mine came from! An E32 or E34 aircon fan is nice & big & powerful though...
An E28 m535i radiator has temperature switches fitted to it, that you can use for your fan. Alternatively, you'll need to fit a temp switch somewhere, or a manual switch inside the car (you can have both!).
To do a 'nice' fan install, you can add a relay & fuse to the fusebox. insert details


Airbox
The E32/E34 airbox fits just fine in the E30 bay. It's got a built in heat shield too - a distinct bonus as it sits above the exhaust manifold... Aftermarket options are out there, but I can't see an advantage other than space. M20 cone filters etc will be too small incedentally.
To fit the standard airbox you will need to move the washer bottle. An alternative bottle can be fitted to the E30 airbox mount (corsa bottles apparently fit!), or the standard location - an E34 non-intensive bottle is a nice fit here. Alternatively, find something in the scrap yard that looks right! 324td washer bottle (p/n 6166 1385 280) is ideal.
Unless you find a suitable dual washer bottle, you'll need to modify / remove the associated intensive/headlamp washer electronics.


Throttle cable
The M20 throttle cable is too short - use one from an E32/E34 - about £15 brand new from BMW or off your donor. My M20 throttle cable was pretty ropey when I inspected it; a new one might not be a bad idea.


Exhaust
The issue here is clearance to the steering coupling.
An E28 manifold is apparently a nightmare in this respect, & the E32 item I had (with a flexible coupling in the front section) would also have needed lots of work. The E34 item benefits from the removal of excess material from the flange (insert pic), & bending the lip on the coupling heat-shield (it's easy to see what catches!) but is a comparatively easy fit. Further work will be needed to enable the fitting of an E36 steering rack.

E32 / E34 downpipes can be used, usually cut off before the front box.
Some custom work will be needed to get from here to the back of the car! Options include attaching a flange to the downpipes to connect to an M3 exhaust system (details), getting handy with a welder, or taking the car to a custom exhaust shop.


Fuel connections - the return to the tank comes from the FPR. The pipes should just go straight on...
PAS - use the M30 pump; the E30 M20 pipes will bolt straight to it (pipes from a 4cyl E30 are too short).
Cruise control - if you have it, it'll connect straight to the M30 throttle linkage with no issues.
Brake servo connection - you may need a new vacuum pipe to go from the M30 inlet manifold to the E30 brake servo.


Maintenance / prep - before fitting the engine it's well worth doing the sump gasket, as that'd be a serious PITA in the car, but easy on the stand. Water pump, Oil/filter, Coolant, PAS fluid, Spark Plugs, PAS/altenator belts, dizzy cap/rotor arm - these will all want changing too & I'm sure you can work out which need to be done before the engines in & which need to wait!
Last edited by Ziggy on Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:26 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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ricey46
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Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:33 pm

Brilliant Ziggy, just what is needed!! :D

I can't remember who made this pic(nice one whoever did!!lol.), I just remember saving it, should help for the plumbing bit.........

Image

I'll see if there's anymore that could be of help!! :cool:
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Ziggy
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Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:38 pm

That's the pic I was gonna look for & stick in! Ta :thumb:
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Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:21 am

ricey46 wrote:
I can't remember who made this pic(nice one whoever did!!lol.)
:wave:

Re the negative points of the E28 M30, the other one is you will have to change the sump and oil pump to E34/2 M30 items.

E28 coolant T-piece # 11 53 1 272 866
The M20 throttle cable is too short - use one from an E32 (check).


Yes, E32 or E34 M30, less than £15 new from BMW
flange to the downpipes to connect to an M3 exhaust system


image shack is being ghey, will upload picy later

If you want to raid this for a picy go for it

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.law47/33 ... uring.html
Ziggy
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Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:24 am

Noice one Andy - will add those bits tomorrow; off to bed now though!
I got an E32 throttle cable from BMW myself btw - just had a bit of a memory lapse! :lol:
Oh, & xs.to is often more reliable than imageshack... :thumb:
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Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:38 pm

Thank you very much, just need a donor car now!
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Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:34 pm

Excellent write-up, it's about time there was a definitive guide!

I read somewhere (I think in Andyboy's book) that the 324td washer bottle (p/n 6166 1385 280) is the only one that works.

Has anyone done an M30 conversion with the E36/Z3 rack conversion? Again, there's a suggestion that the left hand engine mount from an E28 m5 is some help in moving the engine across slightly.

Anyone? :?:
Ziggy
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Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:41 pm

Nice one on the washer bottle (will add it) :thumb: The one I've got doesn't match any available mounts, but it does sit nicely on the front of the O/S wing! Sounds like the td one's ideal, but E34's more available for pence in a scrapyard.

A couple of people (Gareth / Martin / Theo maybe? Can't remember for sure!) have tried the rack conversion, but I'm not sure how successful they've been. Someone let us know! :)
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SidewaysScouser
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Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:55 pm

Doesn't the M3 dog-leg gearbox mate up to the M30? I know it's not cost effective, but another option?

The Alpina B6S had exactly the same gear ratios as the M3.
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Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:04 pm

It might also be worth annexing a guide to relocating the battery in the boot - I don't think I've seen a conversion with the battery still at the front of the car?
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Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:19 pm

Both good points... anyone care to confirm the m3 box option?

My battery's still under the bonnet! That'll be because the re-location gubbins is still in the garage... :o:
Quite happy to write that up too, but it's relevant to more than just m30 conversions, so should probably stay separate.
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Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:33 pm

I agree Ziggy, but definitely post a link here to wherever the guide ends up! :D

Same if anyone's got the steering rack conversion to work with the M30?

Alpina used a 2.79:1 ratio LSD - anyone know if this was fitted to anything else? :?:
ricey46
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Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:19 pm

Has there been many people who have done this conversion with just the M30B30 or have most people chose the B35??
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Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:49 pm

Given the price of donor 3.5's I can't see that anyone would have seen the point in transplanting the 2.8 M30. It's not got a lot over a standard 325! :P
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Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:03 am

Yeah, the cheapness of 3.5s makes the under-powered 3-litre a waste of time really.

I've had E36 and Z3 racks (exactly the same externally) and with an M30 it's a headache! :(

On sudden hard left hand turns my exhaust manifold leans nicely on the steering coupling, locking the steering! :eek:
Not nice, so I'm very careful.

Extensive manifold modifications are required, and stiffer engine mounts could help too but I've not got round to that yet.
I'm not too fussed about sorting the problem as I'm currently working on a turbo conversion that should sort out that problem anyway.

Pm sent Ziggy! :)
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Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:03 am

I've got an e46 m3 rack on mine, with plenty of clearance as well. I had to heavily modify the downpipe part on the front exhaust manifold. I moved the flange up a couple of inches towards the manifold, and also rotated it about 90 degrees so there was plenty of clearance with the steering coupling. The downpipe was then extended so it reached the modified manifold. The heatshield on the steering coupling is very close to the rear manifold, but with a nice solid aluminium guibo the overall diameter is reduced and clearance increased. Well worth the work, as the quick rack really makes a huge difference to the car.

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Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:17 am

The M30 'box bolts to the shell using standard M20 box (others?) mounts. The M20 gear linkage is needed, to make the gear lever stick up in the right place...
M20others? clutch slave cylinder can be used
M40/M42/M20 transmission brackets work (they are all the same)
320i and 325i gear linkages are different, it's the 325i one you need. People say you can use a standard length one, but both my linkage and selecetor are shortened, and the selector rod is still too long.

For the diff i'd say that 3.46 is ideal, 3.64 is still quite short if you use your car on the motorway.

You need the PAS resevoir-to-pump pipe from a 6cyl E30, the 4cyl one is too short.
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Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:41 am

Cheers for all the additions guys - keep em coming & I'll do an update tomorrow / Monday (away for the weekend, & yes the M30 propelled me up here very nicely!) :cool:
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Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:20 pm

Andy335Touring wrote:
flange to the downpipes to connect to an M3 exhaust system


image shack is being ghey, will upload picy later
Image

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leedg
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Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:44 pm

I have an e36 rack on mine, and im currently working on the exhaust, im adding a whole lot of flexi onto the front manifold as there is no way I can get the e34 manifold to fit, I have spacered the engine up for more clearence on the sump which hasnt helped. a Pic of what I have got to work around...

Image

I will get a pic of the changes once they are done, waiting for the flexi to turn up.

Oh and you can buy custom exhaust bits from www.jetex.co.uk, a local welder is going to weld everything together for me for £20, just need to cut it to shape, the proper exhaust place wanted £100 to change the downpipe and £200 to change the manifold! :mad:
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Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:15 pm

3: Custom - companies like reco-prop (www.reco-prop.com) can shorten / fabricate a prop for you. I had one made using an E28M353i front half, & E30 rear half. This was slightly too long for me to use as standard (the 2 halfs mate ok though), so reco-prop shortened the front half, fitted a new centre bearing & balanced & painted it for me. That cost £150 ish.

:D sorry

for the fan a e34 aircon fan is sweet. something to look for in a donor as your looking £40 for one from a breaker.


anyone got any idea's on using a 325i oil cooler? i hear the e28 can help?


nice work man :D
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Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:25 pm

ric325i wrote:3: Custom - companies like reco-prop (www.reco-prop.com) can shorten / fabricate a prop for you. I had one made using an E28M353i front half, & E30 rear half. This was slightly too long for me to use as standard (the 2 halfs mate ok though), so reco-prop shortened the front half, fitted a new centre bearing & balanced & painted it for me. That cost £150 ish.

:D sorry
What's your point? Have you never driven one? The 5.3L V13 is awesome.



for the fan a e34 aircon fan is sweet. something to look for in a donor as your looking £40 for one from a breaker.


anyone got any idea's on using a 325i oil cooler? i hear the e28 can help?


nice work man :D
I've got an E28 oil cooler and a 325i one, & they look identical IIRC. I would expect either to be easy enough to fit, but they're really not necessary with modern oils - hence the E34/E32 didn't have them...
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Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:30 pm

:D sorry
[/quote]
What's your point? Have you never driven one? The 5.3L V13 is awesome.

i think ric ment e28535i



:roll:
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Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:37 pm

jaffro wrote:
:D sorry

What's your point? Have you never driven one? The 5.3L V13 is awesome.
i think ric ment e28535i



:roll:
I know what he meant dude - he was quoting my (now-edited!) original post/typo! :wink:
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Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:39 pm

soz maye bad day. i no longer have a 3.5 :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:47 am

sorry if this has been covered elsewhere not had chance to read through everything yet

-Is it best to get a full donor car or would the engine and loom suffice seems as most donors are auto anyway?

-Have most people made their own mounts? I read on another guide that the .de fella doesnt sell his mounts
outside of germany
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Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:03 am

A whole car (especially with a manual gearbox) can be useful for the radiator, exhaust downpipes, ecu, throttle cable and possibly the front section of propshaft. And for hearing it running before fitting the engine!

I bought my mounting brackets from Tino at 335i.de, he was very helpful and pleasant to deal with.
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Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:08 am

so you can get mounts from tino, thats good. I'm sort of tempted to try myself but at least i know there are good ones to buy

the donor thing confused me because reading the guide it appears i want an e34 model engine , but some of the ancillaries are better from the e28 model
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Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:11 am

can i add that i sell the m30 mounts, verysimilar to de and cheaper, and postage cost is less. Quite a number of people from here have bought them and been very pleased with the quality and service. More info and feed back can be found on my thread "m30 mounts with pics"
E30 M30 Mounts £100 pm me for info.
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Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:19 am

so is a manual 735 a good donor car? only as theres one at my local scrappy winkeye
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Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:19 pm

blitz877 wrote:so is a manual 735 a good donor car? only as theres one at my local scrappy winkeye
Should be, what year is it ?
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Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:49 pm

I am i right in assuming that an e36 328i prop will fit without modification or did i read that incorrectly?
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Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:01 pm

oylegate wrote:I am i right in assuming that an e36 328i prop will fit without modification or did i read that incorrectly?
i think the center bearing has to go on the other way round but yeh its the same as the m3 prop i believe
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oylegate
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Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:06 pm

Sweet! :cool: M30 conversion here i come. But slowly, very slowly!
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Location: Billericay, Essex

Thu May 22, 2008 8:57 pm

Hey Ziggy and everyone else involved, first of all great write up, very helpfull. I am currently in the middle of doing this myself hopefully putting the engine in this weekend weather permitting! Just a question about the rad as your quote:

"An E34 radiator can also be used, but it's significantly thicker than the E28 item, so you may have clearance issues to the front of the engine. To mount the E34 radiator you can use the standard 325 bottom plastic 'cup' mount on the right hand side and another right hand side one on the left hand side, riveted to the body as it doesn't clip in quite perfectly. The radiator sits in this like it was made to measure!"

I tried this out for size and the E34 rad i got is about 1-2inches or so to wide so wont slot down properly on the mounts, so my question is were there different types of rads on the 535 or have i missed something? any mods to the rad or body needed? If i cant get this to work will a 325 rad cope ok with cooling the engine on trackdays and traffic?

Cheers for any help,

Shaun.
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