Hi Guys,
I have an E30 that i purchased about 2 years ago. It is a 1983 2 door coupe, fairly clean body( this is why i bought it ).The motor had some work done to it and it goes resonably well. Here is what i know it has had done.
Bigger cam,Head ported and polished (731), Modified AFM
It is a little tired so thought it was time to upgrade.I have in my possesion a standard 2.7 Block so i was thinking a stroker motor using the 2.7 block the 731 head 290 degree cam springs rockers and 2.5 monifold and throttle body.
I am Looking at a full rebuild replacing all internals and externals( mechanic by trade) i want to turbo this with a GT35 aswell so i am looking for info on ECU as it is still running the old L-jetronic, how hard is it to convert to motronic out of a later version? is a piggyback systems a better idea. Any info would be awesom. also what is the easiest way to check this is still running L-jetronic, i have had very little experience on Bimmers but all looking forward to the challenge.
Cheers.
Turbo and ECU info
Moderator: martauto
I´m going to like always reccomend a VEMS ecu. the features they have and the support for M20 engines powered by them is large just make them a great bang for buck.
It´s going to be jetronic if you have an adjustable distributor below the intake manifold.
It´s going to be jetronic if you have an adjustable distributor below the intake manifold.
Cheers thanks for the Tip, I was looking at possibly taking away the dizzy altogether as the 2.7 i have is complete motor with crank sensor etc just minus the ECU...so that is why i was enquiring as to what possibilities where out there. but i would like to keep in mind that Bang for buck is always in the back of the mind.
Cheers
Cheers
if u can convert it to motronic 1.3 from a later spec M20 there are turbo chips out there. not sure if it would work out cheaper than a basic standalone setup tho once u factor in all the parts needed tho.
if u will be boosting the engine then before u start putting things together u might want to consider piston/rod choice wisely as u can use different combos of piston/rod to get higher or lower compression ratios and lower is always a good thing for a decent turbo build.
if u will be boosting the engine then before u start putting things together u might want to consider piston/rod choice wisely as u can use different combos of piston/rod to get higher or lower compression ratios and lower is always a good thing for a decent turbo build.
WMMotorsports
i have been looking into converting to Motronic as it isnt that expensive for parts once you have the ECU and the engine loom but havent found wiring diagrams etc to help with the conversion and obviously would need larger injectors to start with and then i think a few other sensensors etc but i was hoping that maybe a megasquirt or perfect power may be enough to control getting the fuel, spark and timing where it needs to be as for pistons and rods there are several options as i use to sell parts but i am looking at using a dished piston in the 2.7 block with the 323 head although the head will bring te compression up with the standard rods and the dished piston it should drop it back down to around 8.5:1 which should be just nice for the T35. But as i was saying earlier i am really struggling to get bang for buck out of somesort of ECU that will be able to handle what i want. i would really like to keep as mucg of the wiring etc original as possible so worst case i can slide a standard motor back in unplug a few things and away we go, so i am really trying to chase a decent piggy back system but not sure how the jetronic ecu would handle it.
So if you have any suggestions for that let me know but thanks for the pointers.
Cheers
So if you have any suggestions for that let me know but thanks for the pointers.
Cheers
hmm.. does sound like a tricky one.
havent messed with jetronic so i dont know tons but im thinking if the dizzy can be adjusted or u can figure a way to retard timing, maybe a chip if ignition/fuelling is ECU controlled? maybe a FMU if the ECU doesnt have much input on fuelling.
the bulk of the stuff i have is for M1.3 with 1 or 2 for M1.1, cant remember if ive seen any jetronic stuff floating about tho..
for an M1.3 conversion first things that pop into my head are ECU, engine loom and whatever sensors are needed. possibly some random bits/peices around the engine to do with the additional sensors, etc. also.. if u managed to convert it to M1.3 then sticking in a standard engine would just be a case of finding a later spec engine instead of an early one.
havent messed with jetronic so i dont know tons but im thinking if the dizzy can be adjusted or u can figure a way to retard timing, maybe a chip if ignition/fuelling is ECU controlled? maybe a FMU if the ECU doesnt have much input on fuelling.
the bulk of the stuff i have is for M1.3 with 1 or 2 for M1.1, cant remember if ive seen any jetronic stuff floating about tho..
for an M1.3 conversion first things that pop into my head are ECU, engine loom and whatever sensors are needed. possibly some random bits/peices around the engine to do with the additional sensors, etc. also.. if u managed to convert it to M1.3 then sticking in a standard engine would just be a case of finding a later spec engine instead of an early one.
WMMotorsports
Maybe the Motronic is the way to go do you know if there is problem with using the Auto ECU in the manual, i would think it can be disable in the programming but not sure. Is that you BMW in the picture??? it looks pretty tidy it looks the same as mine but mine is an earlier model hence this dam jetronic.
auto and manual M1.3 ECU's are the same, i converted mine from auto to manual and the only electrical mods so to speak was grounding the neutral/park signal wire so the engine would start with the manual box and all fitted.
yea thats my money pit in the sig/avatar haha.. shes an 89 325i SE, FSH from new, was auto up until i got it and have done a few wee things to it, loads more planned just need time/money as usual..
if u go the M1.3 swap route ive a few good/working 173's here so u would really only need to look for the loom and sensors/misc bits.
not sure if u would have to changethe distributor setup to the front of the cam style as on later M1.3 cars or not tho.. also might need to change injectors if the jetronic ones arent the same as the motronic ones. probably a few other wee niggly things like that but it couldnt be that hard? famous last words..
yea thats my money pit in the sig/avatar haha.. shes an 89 325i SE, FSH from new, was auto up until i got it and have done a few wee things to it, loads more planned just need time/money as usual..
if u go the M1.3 swap route ive a few good/working 173's here so u would really only need to look for the loom and sensors/misc bits.
not sure if u would have to changethe distributor setup to the front of the cam style as on later M1.3 cars or not tho.. also might need to change injectors if the jetronic ones arent the same as the motronic ones. probably a few other wee niggly things like that but it couldnt be that hard? famous last words..
WMMotorsports
ha ha ha famous last words indeed ha ha. i know you need high impendence injector but yeah not sure about the lead set up i can get a a ECU here but not sure wht bosch number is needed the one i had offered to me was 0 261 200 157 there were a few other numbers on there but that was the only one i copied down and yeah as you said a loom to which shouldnt be to hard is it just the Engine loom?
My bimmer is a 1983 323i 2 door 5speed i have coil overs in the front and adjustables in the back but am looking to fit coil over in there to the 323 head has some awesome port work done to it and a bigger stick but it need a freshen up so thought i would do it properly and give it some capacity at the same time
What is the FSH you mentioned???
My bimmer is a 1983 323i 2 door 5speed i have coil overs in the front and adjustables in the back but am looking to fit coil over in there to the 323 head has some awesome port work done to it and a bigger stick but it need a freshen up so thought i would do it properly and give it some capacity at the same time
What is the FSH you mentioned???
T-Roy,
Honestly, forget the Motronic if you are serious about fitting a GT35. Aftermarket ECU's have a host of additional features (knock sensor, wastegate controller, AFR inputs, wheel speed inputs etc) that will enable you to get the most from your engine without putting it at too much Risk.
Tim Haynes here is using a Gotech-Pro X on his supercharged M20B25 with a distributorless (coil-on-plug) ignition system.
Don't waste your time with Perfect Power. I just threw one of their products away!
Or ask Gunni about some of the cars he has fitted with VEMS. Or consider the ever popular megasquirt. And before factoring in the cost of good aftermarket ECU, consider the cost of fixing the engine if you get it wrong with a Motronic. And since you don't yet even have a Motronic ECU why bother? Just move straight on to a goog aftermarket unit.
Good Luck
Geoff
Honestly, forget the Motronic if you are serious about fitting a GT35. Aftermarket ECU's have a host of additional features (knock sensor, wastegate controller, AFR inputs, wheel speed inputs etc) that will enable you to get the most from your engine without putting it at too much Risk.
Tim Haynes here is using a Gotech-Pro X on his supercharged M20B25 with a distributorless (coil-on-plug) ignition system.
Don't waste your time with Perfect Power. I just threw one of their products away!
Or ask Gunni about some of the cars he has fitted with VEMS. Or consider the ever popular megasquirt. And before factoring in the cost of good aftermarket ECU, consider the cost of fixing the engine if you get it wrong with a Motronic. And since you don't yet even have a Motronic ECU why bother? Just move straight on to a goog aftermarket unit.
Good Luck
Geoff
"It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula-1 level, think that brakes are for slowing the car down." - Mario Andretti
FSH = full service history 
motronic is fine if ur not planning anything too crazy but like geoff says aftermarket has its advantages, most notably using whatever sensors u fancy and more tuning support.
motronic is fine if ur not planning anything too crazy but like geoff says aftermarket has its advantages, most notably using whatever sensors u fancy and more tuning support.
WMMotorsports
-
BornToBeE30
- E30 Zone Newbie
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:00 pm
This 323 1983 2 door coupe you talk about, what color is it if you don't mind me asking?
RE: converting to M1.3, i knew i saw an article on it somewhere, found it for ur reading pleasure.
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=100939
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=100939
WMMotorsports
-
Speedtouch
- Old Skooler
- Posts: 14090
- Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:00 pm
- Location: Canterbury
mattyb on here recently did the L-Jet to Motronic conversion:
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... 78&start=0
We helped with finding the wiring diagrams
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... 78&start=0
We helped with finding the wiring diagrams
///M aurice
ECU Upgrade EPROM Chips, £40 posted within the UK. Note these are not Zone chips.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=279421
ECU Upgrade EPROM Chips, £40 posted within the UK. Note these are not Zone chips.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=279421
Hi guys,
Sorry been away with work, my BME is Silver in colour with Blue interior it is pretty neat but will be alot better soon.
I think i will go the aftermarket system i am trying to speak with a few local guys and see what they say as well.
I am getting the 2.7 complete motor delivered on Tuesday and i have got the 885 head manifold and throttle body on its way shortly the guy is also thowing in the engine loom and Motronic 1.3 ECU but i am now not so sure about even bothering with it. Another thing i am looking at is Injectors... What is the usual size other guys are using for Turbo motors etc i have heard many use the Mustang injectors it i can get a bosch number it would be alot easier. Does anyone know flow rates lb they are rated at?
this site is gret so many peoples brains to pick. does save alot of time spent chasing info and does and don't
Thanks for your help guys.
The sarga continues
Troy
Sorry been away with work, my BME is Silver in colour with Blue interior it is pretty neat but will be alot better soon.
I think i will go the aftermarket system i am trying to speak with a few local guys and see what they say as well.
I am getting the 2.7 complete motor delivered on Tuesday and i have got the 885 head manifold and throttle body on its way shortly the guy is also thowing in the engine loom and Motronic 1.3 ECU but i am now not so sure about even bothering with it. Another thing i am looking at is Injectors... What is the usual size other guys are using for Turbo motors etc i have heard many use the Mustang injectors it i can get a bosch number it would be alot easier. Does anyone know flow rates lb they are rated at?
this site is gret so many peoples brains to pick. does save alot of time spent chasing info and does and don't
Thanks for your help guys.
The sarga continues
Troy
don´t go less then 42lbs on the injector size.
-
eta
- E30 Zone Regular
- Posts: 356
- Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:00 pm
- Location: Glemsford Suffolk
- Contact:
People have fitted turbo's to carb engines so it must be possible with L-jet. I would presume you would need a RRFPR to adjust fuel pressure as the inlet manifold pressure rises and the timing for the L-jet distributor can be adjested. I don't know the details but Fritz Bits do as they did that for an E28 528i this year which they did some tuning work on. I am pretty sure the ignition timing was altered. I am not saying this is the best route as a standalone sytem is probably a better option but I think it's doable.
For the L-jet wring diagrams. I was looking at these again for another E28 owner and the L-jet 17 pin c101 has the same pin usage as the motronic 1.0 C101. The only difference in the E30 there will be two additonal pins for the tach and speedo signal (I assume early E30 had these run through the c101). Given the rest of the pins are the same on both systems the position of these extra wires could also be the same.
For the L-jet wring diagrams. I was looking at these again for another E28 owner and the L-jet 17 pin c101 has the same pin usage as the motronic 1.0 C101. The only difference in the E30 there will be two additonal pins for the tach and speedo signal (I assume early E30 had these run through the c101). Given the rest of the pins are the same on both systems the position of these extra wires could also be the same.
Cheers for all the info guys,
Things are coming together have the 2.7 eta, the 885 head manifold and throttle body, the turbo kit is on its way... the 1.3 ECU and engine loom arrived but i will be selling them very shortly to go aftermarket stand alone you have convinced me it is not the place to be going cheap. I have spoke to a couple of guys at chiptorque in regards to injection and they have been a great help so we are slowly sussing that out and i will keep you posted on what is decided but keep the info going on that, but one things is for sure i will be getting rid of the AFM inplace of a MAF sensor. So now on to some important questions head gaskets any info that i can use ie orings the block or brands types anything specific i need to know or do. I don't want to be pulling things thing apart, and maching block, balanceing pistons crank etc how do the standard bottom ends hold up with a good set of pistons, rings and bearings on the standard rods go.
I am looking at doing the engine swap over the christmas holidays so i will hopefully have everything ready to slide in when the time comes.
thanks for the tips
T-Roy
Things are coming together have the 2.7 eta, the 885 head manifold and throttle body, the turbo kit is on its way... the 1.3 ECU and engine loom arrived but i will be selling them very shortly to go aftermarket stand alone you have convinced me it is not the place to be going cheap. I have spoke to a couple of guys at chiptorque in regards to injection and they have been a great help so we are slowly sussing that out and i will keep you posted on what is decided but keep the info going on that, but one things is for sure i will be getting rid of the AFM inplace of a MAF sensor. So now on to some important questions head gaskets any info that i can use ie orings the block or brands types anything specific i need to know or do. I don't want to be pulling things thing apart, and maching block, balanceing pistons crank etc how do the standard bottom ends hold up with a good set of pistons, rings and bearings on the standard rods go.
I am looking at doing the engine swap over the christmas holidays so i will hopefully have everything ready to slide in when the time comes.
thanks for the tips
T-Roy
Why are you going to use a MAF with a standalone?
What have you and they sussed in terms of fuel injection so far?
Nothing needs to be done to a M20 unless you plan on some serious power.
ARP studs are a given, nothing else is needed.
Bottom ends don´t go unless you REALLY REALLY try.
What have you and they sussed in terms of fuel injection so far?
Nothing needs to be done to a M20 unless you plan on some serious power.
ARP studs are a given, nothing else is needed.
Bottom ends don´t go unless you REALLY REALLY try.
Sorry Gunni,
Bit of a typo, i meant to say MAP sensor i want to do away with th AFM if possible, As for injection, We are looking at 480cc injector and are loking at coupleof different systems.
these are in any particular order
first option is motronic or and Autronic system these both seem like good option and will do everything and more that we will ask of them but the price tag on them is a little more than i wanted but this is not an area i want to get wrong.
The other option i am having a look at is a delco system out of a2000 model Supercharged commordore i have a mate who is running a supercharged 351 cleveland pushing out around 600hp at the wheels. and this certain ly seems to be up to the jobnparts are very cheap and common. this is great diagnostic action on them and seem to be very reliable.
The last option that i want to try and find out a bit more on is this vems that you spoke about earlier there hasn't been much talk of these down here but everyone on the zone seems to back them so it leads me to believe that there must! be something good in them i have been meaning to research them abit more for myself before making any decision.
so let me know your thoughts. which ever way i go i want to make sure that support is available but also parts are not going to be an issues to find.
What feed back can you give on these options.
Thanks for your info so far it is awesome.
when i was younger mechanicing i always stayed away from the BMW as all you heard was they are so expensive a rich mans car. But now after playing with one myself and driving them i have the exact opposite opionion and am amaised at what they are cappable of.
cheers Troy
Bit of a typo, i meant to say MAP sensor i want to do away with th AFM if possible, As for injection, We are looking at 480cc injector and are loking at coupleof different systems.
these are in any particular order
first option is motronic or and Autronic system these both seem like good option and will do everything and more that we will ask of them but the price tag on them is a little more than i wanted but this is not an area i want to get wrong.
The other option i am having a look at is a delco system out of a2000 model Supercharged commordore i have a mate who is running a supercharged 351 cleveland pushing out around 600hp at the wheels. and this certain ly seems to be up to the jobnparts are very cheap and common. this is great diagnostic action on them and seem to be very reliable.
The last option that i want to try and find out a bit more on is this vems that you spoke about earlier there hasn't been much talk of these down here but everyone on the zone seems to back them so it leads me to believe that there must! be something good in them i have been meaning to research them abit more for myself before making any decision.
so let me know your thoughts. which ever way i go i want to make sure that support is available but also parts are not going to be an issues to find.
What feed back can you give on these options.
Thanks for your info so far it is awesome.
when i was younger mechanicing i always stayed away from the BMW as all you heard was they are so expensive a rich mans car. But now after playing with one myself and driving them i have the exact opposite opionion and am amaised at what they are cappable of.
cheers Troy
The VEMS ecu today is so capable for the price it´s kinda hard to look past it.
check out the vems forum
http://195.159.109.134/vemsuk/forum/index.php
and this link on the e30tech forum
http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13687
Autronic is good but expensive for what you need out of it. Motronic is not ready for a MAP sensor conversion.
check out the vems forum
http://195.159.109.134/vemsuk/forum/index.php
and this link on the e30tech forum
http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13687
Autronic is good but expensive for what you need out of it. Motronic is not ready for a MAP sensor conversion.
Cheers for the Info,
the VEMS certainly seems to have to goods so much it is capable of. since reading i have started checking around locally for support etc and this is where it gets a little tricky there is very little support for these systems down here which is alittle unfortunate as i think if there was more support it would be an open and shut case.
At this stage we are going to go with a Delco system out of a late 90' VS supercharged commodore with Engine loom and all switches ans sensor as they parts are extremely easy to buy and are all bosch with a good price tag the PCM are extremely flexible and for the money will be very hard to beat.
Any thought you may had good or bad about this system you can pass on.
I do have another question as far as throttle bodies go i have the 2.5 throttle body (65mm) and manifold (360mm runners)with the (885)head but what sort of horse power are these throttle bodies capable of will it flow enough and also what is the advantage of the shorter runners on the manifold.
Cheers Troy
the VEMS certainly seems to have to goods so much it is capable of. since reading i have started checking around locally for support etc and this is where it gets a little tricky there is very little support for these systems down here which is alittle unfortunate as i think if there was more support it would be an open and shut case.
At this stage we are going to go with a Delco system out of a late 90' VS supercharged commodore with Engine loom and all switches ans sensor as they parts are extremely easy to buy and are all bosch with a good price tag the PCM are extremely flexible and for the money will be very hard to beat.
Any thought you may had good or bad about this system you can pass on.
I do have another question as far as throttle bodies go i have the 2.5 throttle body (65mm) and manifold (360mm runners)with the (885)head but what sort of horse power are these throttle bodies capable of will it flow enough and also what is the advantage of the shorter runners on the manifold.
Cheers Troy
Troy, where abouts are you? The way you say "down here" and the fact that you want to use an ECU from a Commodore makes me think that you just have to be in the land of Oz?T-roy wrote:... i have started checking around locally for support etc and this is where it gets a little tricky there is very little support for these systems down here ...
At this stage we are going to go with a Delco system out of a late 90' VS supercharged commodore ...
If so then do at least take a look at Adaptronic here. I have their e420c on my car and they have just released their e1280s ECU. The e420c (at 990AU$) is more than sufficient for most applications with ample auxilliary inputs and outputs for controlling all sorts of goodies on your engine. You'll also find ample support for Adaptronic in OZ (since it is an Aussie product). I was originally going to buy an Autronic ECU for my car, but bought an Adaptronic when I realised it had all the same features at a fraction of the cost.
"It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula-1 level, think that brakes are for slowing the car down." - Mario Andretti
Yeah Mate,
Am in Brissy so i guess you can understand finding info down here can be difficult at times i will check the Adapttronic out for sure thanks for the tip.
The VEMS seem fantastic but just not alot of info or support down here for them. What motor etc are you running and have you done a lot of work to it??
Am in Brissy so i guess you can understand finding info down here can be difficult at times i will check the Adapttronic out for sure thanks for the tip.
The VEMS seem fantastic but just not alot of info or support down here for them. What motor etc are you running and have you done a lot of work to it??
My car is here Troy. Has a Toyota 3S-GTE engine from a Celica in it. Forged pistons and rods with custom sump, custom inlet and exhaust headers, GT3267 Turbo and custom gearbox. Track only car. Adaptronic e420c ECU in speed-density mode controlling sequential injection, sequential ignition, dual fuel pumps (2nd only comes in above 0.4 bar boost), wastegate solenoid valve, idle valve and Davies-Craig electric water pump. Aside from the usual array of MAP, MAT, TPS and other engine sensors it has inputs from a wide-band oxygen (Lambda) sensor, a block mounted knock sensor and the E30 ABS wheel speed sensors (to implement traction and launch control). A switch on the clutch pedal tells it to limit rpm so that I can flat shift.T-roy wrote:Yeah Mate,
Am in Brissy so i guess you can understand finding info down here can be difficult at times i will check the Adapttronic out for sure thanks for the tip.
The VEMS seem fantastic but just not alot of info or support down here for them. What motor etc are you running and have you done a lot of work to it??
The Adaptronics party trick is its ability to "adaptively" fine-tune both its fuel and ignition maps by itself while you drive.
"It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula-1 level, think that brakes are for slowing the car down." - Mario Andretti
There are enough people on both of those forums to support your M20 VEMS adventure as it´s been used alot on bmw turbos and especially M20´s
I have or can make basemaps to get you running nicely.
Are there any specific features you MUST have from your ecu?
I have or can make basemaps to get you running nicely.
Are there any specific features you MUST have from your ecu?
Hey Gunni,
There isn't anything out of the ordinary that i will be asking the ECU to do at all infact even alot of the simply systems will probably be able to run most of the normal things you would need for a Turbo applications.
It is now coming more down to Bang for your buck as all the systems that everyone has mentioned except the standary system will certainly be able to handle what we need.
They are all similar pricing except the Delco out of the Commodore which price wise leaves the others for dead.
I have put the ECu issue aside for now as i am back driving the car with the old 2.3 in it while i gather the other bies and pieces for the hopefully christmas swap over.
I am finding at the moment i am spending more time just fixing lots of little things on the car mainly the instrument cluster i am having some serious problems with it.
before i lost my license 10 months ago the dash was working perfect but now since the car has sat i can get the Temp gauge or the econo meter to work. i have pulled it apart several times replaced the batteries and check the board etc but the temp gauge hasn't budges. the econo gauge works sometimes but not sure how acurate it is. i eathers out the temp wire to try to get a reading off the gauge but nothing so i am leading toward a stuffed gauge but i can't help but think the 2 problems are related.
Any thought ??
Troy
There isn't anything out of the ordinary that i will be asking the ECU to do at all infact even alot of the simply systems will probably be able to run most of the normal things you would need for a Turbo applications.
It is now coming more down to Bang for your buck as all the systems that everyone has mentioned except the standary system will certainly be able to handle what we need.
They are all similar pricing except the Delco out of the Commodore which price wise leaves the others for dead.
I have put the ECu issue aside for now as i am back driving the car with the old 2.3 in it while i gather the other bies and pieces for the hopefully christmas swap over.
I am finding at the moment i am spending more time just fixing lots of little things on the car mainly the instrument cluster i am having some serious problems with it.
before i lost my license 10 months ago the dash was working perfect but now since the car has sat i can get the Temp gauge or the econo meter to work. i have pulled it apart several times replaced the batteries and check the board etc but the temp gauge hasn't budges. the econo gauge works sometimes but not sure how acurate it is. i eathers out the temp wire to try to get a reading off the gauge but nothing so i am leading toward a stuffed gauge but i can't help but think the 2 problems are related.
Any thought ??
Troy