Concours - old hat??

[skh]

Hi, hope this is OK to post on this section as it is for those interested & lavish great care on their pride and joy in good who aimed at.

I am an Concours coordinator for BMWCarClub.

I am looking at how to re-ignite the traditional Concours competitions.
Why, when we have so many valets & specialist car detailers now up and down the country are we struggling to get 'you' folk interested in attending concours events??

Is it the prospect of being judged??
Is it the pickyness required to determine a 'winner'??
Is it the perceived insistence on originality??
Is it the need to polish the engine bay & exhaust as much as the paintwork??
Is it having to stand by your car until, eventually, the judges turn up??
Or what??

Is Show & shine the answer where people entering judge each others??

I am genuinely interested in any constructive criticism or thoughts on what may induce a revival of sorts for a showcase of really well presented show cars.
Post replies or pm

Much appreciated

Thanks

[pierce]

Personally, out of your list, its the perceived insistence on originality.

Im aware there are many categories, but I feel most people think that without the odd very specific lick of paint on torqued bolts, manufacturer stickers, original tyres, full tool kits etc they just can't compete.

(really, the main reason why its avoided by myself is the attitude of other competitors, super quick to judge, picking holes, generally giving the impression that because the badge on the back is 3mm over too far the car is a piece of shit)

[Kos]

Concours is an interesting one for me as I've considered entering in the past but haven't

The main reason i have not is for the fact it was opened up to Non club members. It just seems that to me it should be a privilege to enter and be judged and a thats a members privilege. Thats how it should be and if people are serious about it, then they can join up and be part of the community.

In the past when there were less regions, we did seem to have good organisation and always seem to have a regional concours with good turn outs. Now that there are so many regions, its hard work to hold an event and if they do numbers seem to be low and cars wining in certain categories win by default because they have just turned up

So, with that in mind I'd suggest it goes to less regions like the old format, South east, south west, central, north east, north west scottish etc. This will mean higher numbers at events and better competition an no "default" winners


The judging/scoring/points systems

Pride of ownership / Elite / Master Class

Pride of ownership is good from a personal point of view for me as i would not lose points for after market wheels and audio. But should i win i regional and then national i don't see why i would have to step up to elite where i would lose points for the non original components. This would rule me out of entering again because if i am right, i cannot enter the following year again in pride of ownership.

By allowing people like me, who modify our cars, so stay in pride of ownership it would keep us in the concours circle.

At regional level, is it just the 2 categories or is it all 3 ?

If its all 3, and a car wins elite, then then they move to Master the following year at a regional level. At national it should be the same.

If you and the other discussing this at board level think cars should be made to take the step up from pride of ownership to elite then we need to know for sure how the "heavy" points deduction will work

Non original wheels -5
Non original interior -5
Aftermarket audio -5
etc

But to penalise modified cars will put off owners of modified BMW's off from the club.

it something that needs careful thinking.

The rules in place (which also do mention that you have to be a paid up member and produce your membership card)

Last time i read over them, they seemed fine. I've just had a look at the break down in categories (for age) and they do not do enough to take away the unfair advantage newer cars have.

I recall at sone stage you had e23/28/24/30 (80's cars) in one category then e36/34/32/34 (90's) in another category etc.

Has this been taken away and all cars fall into the same pot ? that totally makes more sense, as we don't want too many categories.

So I revert back to the age advantage, as it stand cars get bonus points (or deductions) for age. capping it at 20 for cars made in 1992 is a bit harsh. this maybe puts off older cars from entering. maybe that needs to be looked at. maybe look to move that to 1987 and 25 points. and maybe more bonus points for 110,000/120,000 miles.

The judges, this is another interesting subject. at all times the club needs to ensure that the scoring & judging is consistent. it would be good if a pro detailer was there to judge. to get them on board i would suggest they they get to "sponsor" the even free of charge and in return they can judge along side a club official.

however we must clear that no car they prepped or detailed can enter.

At no stage should the people entering be allowed to vote. It can lead to tactical voting which is unethical.

not to sure what else to say at this moment in time

[pacerpete]

I have just taken delivery of my 65 plate 116d M Sport . I can't wait to start displaying it at concours events the length and breadth of the country . I have also purchased a 65 plate X5 and an enclosed trailer to transport my pride and joy. How do I sign up ?

[elf]

I have just taken delivery of my 65 plate 116d M Sport . I can't wait to start displaying it at concours events the length and breadth of the country . I have also purchased a 65 plate X5 and an enclosed trailer to transport my pride and joy. How do I sign up ?

Winner lol -
I've entered my car on a couple this year .I detail and clean my own car because I love my e30 and take care of it.
I truly am not worried if I don't win .I go because I can meet like minded nutterss and have a great day out .some do expect to win and for me that would spoil my day .

[skh]

Thanks for the comments.
To try and answer some
1) no originality points considered in Pride of Ownership class - deliberately to entice those with modified cars without penalty.
2) Pride of Ownership is not as dare I say 'anal' as Master / Elite so those that enter generally do run their cars even if only 6 months of the year whereas the M/E cars are used mainly for shows.
3) Most competitors have started at the bottom and whilst may seem 'picky' the Devil is in the Detail - so I would think they were only passing on comments to help not offend or undermine.
4) Kos, not all regions hold concours events and the Southern one with various Regions joining up seems to work a treat.
5) Big debate on allowing non-members to enter but if they enter but under a new class for non-members then they will not have any impact on club members. They will of course pay to enter (FOC for club embers and their prize will be years membership
6) I am happy for people to stay in Pride of Ownership unless they should clearly move up. Forcing people to move up in cars which are not up to the higher standards will only serve more damage than good IMO.
7) always welcome new judges to come forward. we did have detailler judging year before last
age points are a bone of contention with new car owners thinking they are over penalised and older ones wanting even more points between old & new. Presently the points are as good as ever been so producing a fair level'ish playing field.
9) Concours will never have a public voting section - thats OK in part for Show & Shine.

Elf - your attitude is a credit and look forward to seeing you in future.
Same to you Pete, trailer it but suffer the mega point deduction hahaha

Best regards

[Mitchen]

Is it the perceived insistence on originality??
Is it the need to polish the engine bay & exhaust as much as the paintwork??

It certainly is not these, because if you were lax on this, it would open the door to the dregs of the BMW scene.. and boy there's a lot of them!

I've never considered entering, because I'm weary of things like the underside of my car.. and I'm sure the real competition at these events have everything immaculate! Like Adrian told Rocky "You can't win!"

[bss325i]

Like Adrian told Rocky "You can't win!"

Pony is that you?

[bss325i]

Thanks for the comments.
To try and answer some
1) no originality points considered in Pride of Ownership class - deliberately to entice those with modified cars without penalty.
2) Pride of Ownership is not as dare I say 'anal' as Master / Elite so those that enter generally do run their cars even if only 6 months of the year whereas the M/E cars are used mainly for shows.

Hi Steve.

One of my cars falls into this category and its something I've considered having a stab at.

Is there any guidelines or scoring system details so i have something to work with if i decide to go down this route?

[Kos]

Scrap the show & shine at gaydon full stop

it simply serves as a "back door" entry on to premium hard standing area for people with no affiliation with the club or a forum

the whole point of gaydon is to bring the community together

with the pride of ownership section, a show and shine is redundant and should be obsolete

in regards to bonus points for older cars and a penalty for newer cars, is concours a completion for the cleanest car or is it a chance to make older working BMW's the best they can be ? i don't think anyone here or in the mainstream are at all interested insetting a 3/4 year old 1/3/5 series with schnitzer wheels looking clean and factory fresh, its boring, its easy it does nothing for the heritage of the brand.

but to see a original e30 316 dragged out of a barn or an e36 with hub caps and boring cloth trim with 200,00 miles and cleaned to within an inch or its life is far more interesting and better for the club to show case it at gaydon, if we continue to have the concours final there (an i think it should be there on a saturday and o display on a sunday.

finally, pride of ownership not being as anal as elite/masterclass, there are some modified BMW's that would wipe the floor if scored equally with some of the best masterclass cars as long as they did not lose points for modifications

[Kos]

Thanks for the comments.
To try and answer some
1) no originality points considered in Pride of Ownership class - deliberately to entice those with modified cars without penalty.
2) Pride of Ownership is not as dare I say 'anal' as Master / Elite so those that enter generally do run their cars even if only 6 months of the year whereas the M/E cars are used mainly for shows.

Hi Steve.

One of my cars falls into this category and its something I've considered having a stab at.

Is there any guidelines or scoring system details so i have something to work with if i decide to go down this route?

i'll print you a copy of the rules/guidlines barry

your car club sticker needs to be on display for bonus points, and that is NOT a joke

[bss325i]

Thanks for the comments.
To try and answer some
1) no originality points considered in Pride of Ownership class - deliberately to entice those with modified cars without penalty.
2) Pride of Ownership is not as dare I say 'anal' as Master / Elite so those that enter generally do run their cars even if only 6 months of the year whereas the M/E cars are used mainly for shows.

Hi Steve.

One of my cars falls into this category and its something I've considered having a stab at.

Is there any guidelines or scoring system details so i have something to work with if i decide to go down this route?

i'll print you a copy of the rules/guidlines barry

your car club sticker needs to be on display for bonus points, and that is NOT a joke

I've got BMWCC E30 25th and 30th aniversay ones, do they count lol?

[skh]

Barry, they will do just fine

Kos, you make some very good points, again.

Sometimes, my role involves playing devils advocate, and putting things forward which 'others' have raised and seeing the varying responses.
Many prefer S&S, a few have condemned concours outright, yet a few have come forward and expressed interest in having a go - so it has been a vibrant thread on a few forums and get way more replies via email to club office than ever expected.
So that tells us there is genuine interest but not all are willing to enter.
Using the same scoring as for Pride of Ownership, we could judge / award Best Modified, if that would encourage those who feel originality a severe penalty?? your comments.

If the consensus had revealed many would join in if a, b or c had changed then we could act, as it is there is little we can do to increase the numbers of participants other than fly the flag and encourage the likes of Barry to give it a go.

[MickCarter]

Skh is original paint required for all the different concours categories ? How much prep work is usually needed for say pride of ownership ?

[Mitchen]

Skh is original paint required for all the different concours categories ? How much prep work is usually needed for say pride of ownership ?

Shouldn't you be down the Vic?

Or is this Pony

[Rav335uk]

but to see a original e30 316 and boring cloth trim is far more interesting and better for the club to show case it at gaydon, if we continue to have the concours final there (an i think it should be there on a saturday and o display on a sunday.

Thanks Old Boy

[Kos]

Skh is original paint required for all the different concours categories ? How much prep work is usually needed for say pride of ownership ?

Shouldn't you be down the Vic?

Or is this Pony

It is pony

To answer the question, original paint is beneficial. Poorly painted panels will be spotted and will lose points

When I prep my car around April time before the shows start I spend a couple of days on body and another day on interior / engine and other details

But the true preparation has been on going for years. I've spent 4/5 days alone on paint on some of my cars.

When you start getting serious and detailing engine bays which don't have plastic covers like the modern cars (e36 on) it takes a long time to get them to a good standard

Then there's the under side, suspension and brake components

[Kos]

Barry, they will do just fine

Kos, you make some very good points, again.

Sometimes, my role involves playing devils advocate, and putting things forward which 'others' have raised and seeing the varying responses.
Many prefer S&S, a few have condemned concours outright, yet a few have come forward and expressed interest in having a go - so it has been a vibrant thread on a few forums and get way more replies via email to club office than ever expected.
So that tells us there is genuine interest but not all are willing to enter.
Using the same scoring as for Pride of Ownership, we could judge / award Best Modified, if that would encourage those who feel originality a severe penalty?? your comments.

If the consensus had revealed many would join in if a, b or c had changed then we could act, as it is there is little we can do to increase the numbers of participants other than fly the flag and encourage the likes of Barry to give it a go.

Thank you Steve


RE best modified

What is modified ? My e24 has a set of springs to lower the car, as set of split rims and some audio including bespoke speaker builds
Then there's cars with engine swaps, crazy audio and all sorts

To give modified their own catagory would be a minefield.

Personally i think is best left as it is but have a clear deduction points system published so any car with non original components knows where they stand should they move up to Elite or Masther class

What I think is worth considering is having a couple of special awards

One for a car that's best persevered, an example maybe a true barn find e3 saloon. It may have a few stone chips, a few cracks in the leather and bit of a dusty engine bay. It's a car that should not be restored

If I am right, they have such a catagory at pebble beach. Ok, we can't compare pebble beach to what we have but the point is that the car should not be "lightly restored" but just prepped to perfection as best possible. Originality would be the main point of focus.

Then you can have another special award for a car that's not 100% original but prepared and shown to an amazingly high level and the exocition of the modifications are in good taste (yes subjective but isn't it all)

Kos

[Strugs]

Having spent <ahem>.. quite a few quid (my wife might read this..) getting mine ship shape (and quite OE, but with a bare metal respray), I think I'd be up for showing it off a bit as the weather improves. I think I'd be up for having a go at a concours of some description, but don't really know the first thing about it.. I'm guessing from this thread it's more than just making it shiny!

Would a BMCC event (I'd have to join first..) be a good place to start?

[elf]

Having spent <ahem>.. quite a few quid (my wife might read this..) getting mine ship shape (and quite OE, but with a bare metal respray), I think I'd be up for showing it off a bit as the weather improves. I think I'd be up for having a go at a concours of some description, but don't really know the first thing about it.. I'm guessing from this thread it's more than just making it shiny!

Would a BMCC event (I'd have to join first..) be a good place to start?

hi bud I've entered a couple of concours this year at bmwcc shows .yes you have to be a member and I think my car is worthy.but if I win nothing I won't love my car any less I just want to enjoy the day and meet like minded members here and at bmwcc.

[skh]

Best place to start is prepare the car to what you think is your best, then enter, speak to other competitors, look at others cars, listen to the judges - even ask them questions after the event and then consider how far you want to go whilst still enjoying the whole experience.

I do believe, but no techie, that the club concours rules and guidelines are on the website.
Can someone more techy perhaps post a link???

I have not got the judging sheets in front of me, but from memory the Originality points are applied to each section and some 25 points available to be deducted.
Kos - what your asking for is an indication as to the likely amount to be deducted for say non-standard wheels?? non- standard paint ie flip/flop etc
It could be that some with paint and alloys, headligts etc could lose all 25
similarly if all interior had been replaced with non-original that too lose all 25.
Engine transplant for a chevvy again deduct 25

To consider items individually would be a task - I shall put to the judging team and see if that could be added to the guidelines.
For sure, then a comparable original car, even slightly less clean, would beat a modified.
Or looking other way a split mint Modified car would be unlikely to win at Master or elite classes.

Is this somewhat bias against modified cars??

That is why the Pride of Ownership class works for modified cars, cars driven more regularly, and those with only a few minor up-grades etc.

I can see a special Award could be presented to an immaculate modified car, just as a stunning
un-molested original car - so will voice these ideas too.

Ultimately we need an award for all entrants - all deserve something for their efforts and providing a good display for others to appreciate IMO.

[DanThe]

When and where is the first one? I wouldn't mind turning up and entering

[Kos]

Is this somewhat bias against modified cars??

quite the contrary

a lot of cars that i have had have all been modified. Some have had engine swaps, but most are just an enhancement on OEM with different wheels, audio, suspension

i'm about to change the interior in my e24, more points lost then for me but hey I've made an effort to use genuine BMW Bison leather to cover me recaros

[Strugs]

When and where is the first one? I wouldn't mind turning up and entering

^This..^

[Strugs]

Best place to start is prepare the car to what you think is your best, then enter, speak to other competitors, look at others cars, listen to the judges - even ask them questions after the event and then consider how far you want to go whilst still enjoying the whole experience.

I do believe, but no techie, that the club concours rules and guidelines are on the website.
Can someone more techy perhaps post a link???

I have not got the judging sheets in front of me, but from memory the Originality points are applied to each section and some 25 points available to be deducted.
Kos - what your asking for is an indication as to the likely amount to be deducted for say non-standard wheels?? non- standard paint ie flip/flop etc
It could be that some with paint and alloys, headligts etc could lose all 25
similarly if all interior had been replaced with non-original that too lose all 25.
Engine transplant for a chevvy again deduct 25

To consider items individually would be a task - I shall put to the judging team and see if that could be added to the guidelines.
For sure, then a comparable original car, even slightly less clean, would beat a modified.
Or looking other way a split mint Modified car would be unlikely to win at Master or elite classes.

Is this somewhat bias against modified cars??

That is why the Pride of Ownership class works for modified cars, cars driven more regularly, and those with only a few minor up-grades etc.

I can see a special Award could be presented to an immaculate modified car, just as a stunning
un-molested original car - so will voice these ideas too.

Ultimately we need an award for all entrants - all deserve something for their efforts and providing a good display for others to appreciate IMO.

Interest defo high.. got to be worth a giggle..?

[skh]

Check out BMWCC calander.
I know there is a big Southern Concours - South West areas I think(??)
Not sure if any arranged for the South East.
Always harewood for the Northern folk and even one in Scotland