Has anybody actually tried big brakes and tyres ?

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Andreas
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:12 pm

I am busy converting my Alpina B3 for track day and hillclimb use (no need to conform to any championship rules) and have opted for wide 245 / 17 semi-slick tyres and big brakes (Wilwood 6-pot calipers with 325mm discs).

I have mentioned this on some posts and the general reply is that it wont work well on a E30 track car. These sentiments come from guys who as far as I can tell have experience with actually racing in championships. They suggest smaller brakes and 205 / 15 tyres.

I can imagine that a E30 can be made to work well like that, but has anybody here done something similar to what I am building and give some feedback whether they are happy or not.

Wayne Greatrix went even bigger with his brakes (Corvette V8 engine in a E30 M3 weighing 1021kg) - I am hoping to reach 950kg through extensive use of carbon fiber.

Any comments, experiences in this area would be appreciated.

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Alpina B3 2.7 Racecar under construction.
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Sinha
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Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:46 pm

To be honest, I reckon massive brakes like that are a bit of an overkill...

My 325is is a shade over a ton, and once i'd stripped it, the standard brakes were pretty effective... anyway I warped the shit out of them so I got some wilwood 4pots on 260mm drilled disks. With good pads, braided hoses and some good fluid (i use wilwood race), the brakes are the nuts. Going any bigger/more powerfull are probably overkill, especially given the weight of your car. You have to bear in mind that the braking power of your car is ultimately limited by your tyres... and suspension.

those tyres you talk of sound ok, but I'd go with the recommendation... the 'vette V8 guy may need bigger brakes given the weight he's got over his front wheels.

hope this helps... ps what suspension you running/other mods etc...?
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Andreas
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Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:11 am

Hi Sinha,

I first purchased the 4pots from Wilwood together with 305mm discs. I never tried them to see how much better they were but from looking at them I was disappointed by the engineering and they did not look impressive. These are not valid criteria to discard brakes as effective, however when I saw the 6-pot version I was instantly in love and just wanted them, overkill or not. They have created new problems for me with regard to mags and spacers. The spacers are 45mm wide and made of steel which makes them very heavy - they will have a negative effect on handling which will however probably be offset by improved handling from a wider track. The heavy spacers might "kill" the wheel bearings much quicker.

Suspension is coming from KW in Germany, it is the Variant 3 Full Race Spec suspension. The M20 engine is being treated to 6 individual 48mm throttle bodies, a 304 degree race cam from Schrick, Carbon Fiber intake manifold, dry sump oil system and converted to 2.9 liters via a E36 328 forged crank and 86mm pistons. Rev limit will be set at 8,000 rpm. The brake booster is being dumped in favour of a Tilton race pedal setup with adjustable brake bias front to rear. This setup is supposed to give a much better feedback than using a vacuum assisted brake booster.

I sure that guy with the V8 uses a lightweight aluminium block which means the engine weight is not a problem.
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Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:44 pm

PM Demlotcrew - he has done an interesting and reliable big brake conversion.

IMO big brake/uprated brake as always a good idea. :)
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Jon_Bmw
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Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:12 pm

Something you also need to consider is uprating the rear discs and calipers too. Its all very well having a huge setup on the front, but you need something to balance it out on the rear.

If your pedal movement has changed considerably with the bigger calipers then you'll also want to consider a different master cylinder.

I've always thought if the brakes are good enough to repeatadly lock the wheels at silly speeds(70+mph) then thats job done. Because if you go any bigger than that there is no point, as its then down to the grip of your tyres.
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Andreas
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Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:01 pm

Jon_Bmw wrote:Something you also need to consider is uprating the rear discs and calipers too. Its all very well having a huge setup on the front, but you need something to balance it out on the rear.

If your pedal movement has changed considerably with the bigger calipers then you'll also want to consider a different master cylinder.

I've always thought if the brakes are good enough to repeatadly lock the wheels at silly speeds(70+mph) then thats job done. Because if you go any bigger than that there is no point, as its then down to the grip of your tyres.

I have thought about uprating the rear discs and calipers, however a few people have advised me that it is unnecessary. You are the first to advise me otherwise. I think the ratio of front to rear depends on suspension (weight transfer during braking) as well as static front to rear weight distribution.

Installing bigger discs will of course eat into your acceleration, so I have decided to leave the rear standard and see how it works out once everything is done. If it turns out that bigger brakes are needed in the back, then I will address the issue later. Basically I believe what you're saying but am hoping that it is not necessary - I'll see.

Your suggestion with the brake booster is best answered with some pictures. The Tilton race pedal setup uses 3 individual master cylinders, viz. one for clutch, one for rear brake and one for the front brake. You can select from a big range of master cylinder sizes (strength) and you try to match to what your particular setup requires. In addition you have a second option to control brake bias front to rear with an adjustable lever on the brake pedal.

click images for larger view

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close up view of the bias adjustment bar
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view from engine bay, mounting will be onto roll cage that will also come through the hole cut into the firewall and support the strut tower
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master cylinder
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here is the pedal box with just one master cylinder installed
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Lastly, while the standard brakes were quite satisfactory they were by no means awesome. They would have fared better when the car is lighter, however I still think they would not be as good as I want.

I used to be out-braked by a track prepared Honda Civic by a huge margin (both cars on identical semi-slicks). This guy was not faster on the straights nor could he carry more speed through the corner but he could pass me easily when braking from 140Km/h into a 50km/h tight corner. When racing on the track there is a big difference between adequate brakes and AWESOME brakes.
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Sinha
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Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:22 pm

Andreas,

Given that you'll be in very stiff race spec suspension, it may well be worth upgrading the rears too. Different for those running on just uprated road suspension, eg H&R cup kit/billy sport shocks... where brake bias is heavily favoured to the front, but it sounds likie your car will be stiff as they come, so better rears is worth thinking about.

I also still claim that your 6-pot fronts are a little of an overkill... and yeah, they look BOMBPROOF! Its a trade off, I suppose, your bigger calipers I reckon will not be any more effective than 4-pots due to the ultimate factor being tyres, and the bigger disks will increase unsprung weight affecting accelleration and handling (not sure it will cancel out the increase of handling due to wider track). Wheels with bigger offset may be an option in this case.

Other than that mate, your setup sounds fantastic!! Good luck, let us all know how you get on with it 8)
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Andreas
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Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:26 pm

Hi Sinha,

I guess the first step in upgrading the rear would be changing the calipers to possibly a lightweight 4-pot from Wilwood. Installing a bigger disk is a much bigger job. Once again, I will wait and see, whether I do it now or later is not a big difference - at least I will be able to report whether it works fine with standard rears or not.

Remember, the stiffest suspension is not always the best. I will not be aiming to start off as hard as possible. I plan to work my way to the optimum setup with objective evidence with the help of data logging. A lot of cornering speed will come from custom carbon fiber spoilers that actually produce downforce (not just there for looks). A flat bottom together with full axle rear diffusor will also help the handling.

I spoke to a guy with an extremely fast track-only Subaru. After racing the car for some time he installed 15mm wheel spacers and the increased track increased his cornering speed by 10 km/h. That is a huge difference.

Not only is my track widened by 45mm per side with spacers, the mags are also extended to make the track even wider. Custom wheel arches are needed front and rear to fit the whole setup.

here are some pics

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here is a comparison to my previous semi-slicks
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Jon_Bmw
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Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:24 pm

Andreas wrote:
Jon_Bmw wrote:Something you also need to consider is uprating the rear discs and calipers too. Its all very well having a huge setup on the front, but you need something to balance it out on the rear.

If your pedal movement has changed considerably with the bigger calipers then you'll also want to consider a different master cylinder.

I've always thought if the brakes are good enough to repeatadly lock the wheels at silly speeds(70+mph) then thats job done. Because if you go any bigger than that there is no point, as its then down to the grip of your tyres.

Installing bigger discs will of course eat into your acceleration, so I have decided to leave the rear standard and see how it works out once everything is done. If it turns out that bigger brakes are needed in the back, then I will address the issue later. Basically I believe what you're saying but am hoping that it is not necessary - I'll see.
Excellent, thats what i'd do, see what they are like first. I was mearly suggesting that they may be a bit unbalanced and it may be an issue. I just think that those front brakes will be so so good compared to the rears, perhaps causing some oversteer! 8O

Buuuuut.. with the brake setup you have opted for(tilton?) with the ability to change the Bias is super cool and will probably help you no end. You'd perhaps be able to put more emphasis on the rear than there was at the factory to compensate for those huge front brakes. Perhaps you might consider some decent standard discs(uprated i mean, same size) and decent pads(ds2500 etc etc)

I will be definatly interested to hear how you get on, please keep this updated.

:thumb:

Jon
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