Oil change frequency on S50 e30 track car

[DasChin]

how often do you reckon I should do mine?

I am currently every 3 or 4 track days with filter every 2. depends on mileage and temperature etc.

I use a 10w40 semi synth as changing often. not fussed about Fully synth stuff.

do you think this is too often or about right?

thanks. DC

[Demlotcrew]

Actually i dont think thats enough. I would be using 10w60 only and changing at least every other track day.

Are you monitoring oil temps?

Andrew

[DasChin]

yep. not getting that high at all Andrew. even with the std e36 oil cooler. got air going stright to it.

I guess its working a little less harder by pulling 300 KGs less weight than normal.

[Demlotcrew]

What temps are you seeing?

[DasChin]

never more than 120. normally 110 to 120 range i think.

[Demlotcrew]

Thats quite high Nick! I would be aiming for 90ºC MAX!

The oil you're using be breaking down before then, you need to switch to 10w60 asap.

PM me if you want a link to the best oil.

Andrew

[DasChin]

no its not andrew. I have seen 140 in my old e36 when it was very hot at the ring (38 degrees C) and the 10w40 in it was fine. we took it out and it was still same colour. had it tested by a mate and it was still consistent.

i think as long as you are changing it regularly and with filter seems to be the way.

on tha expensive and highly tuned S14 I can see why you want the best for it.

[Demlotcrew]

Nick,

You asked for advice, if you choose not to take it thats fine.

Let me explain why 10w40 is no good (esp at 110-120º)

the S50 vanos relies on high oil pressures to operate, your cheap 10w40 at 100º is already past its operating limits for this engine.

A good 10w40 has a viscosity of 13.4cST at @ 100º and a good 10w60 easter oil has a viscosity of 24.1cST, thats 80% better than 10w40! Your cheap oil will be liquid water at 120º and evaporating at an alarming rate.

What do i know................

[harry_p]

If you use 10w60 it's worth keeping an eye on euro car parts website, 4 litres for £37.99, but it's almost always included in their special offer codes. There was 30% off this weekend making it £26.60, with free delivery.

[DasChin]

thanks Andrew. you know a lot and appreciate the advice. my car does not have the vanos on it I think. has been deleted. if I do it after every track day then that should be ok?

thanks for the note Harry and i will keep an eye on that.

what brand is it?

[Jhonno]

If it isn't breaking down as you are changing it now, changing it every track day wont make a difference.. It's the temps that are the issue and the ability of the oil to work in the temp range. It does sound a little high to me. Didn't realise your car had the VANOS deleted! Is it running an aftermarket ECU?

Rather than use cheap oil, use better oil and change less frequently?

[Demlotcrew]

The problem is Dan, there is no commercially available way of testing car oil for it breaking down, all they can tell you is that your engine is wearing and what parts etc.

I have my oil tested, costs about £22 and I get a nice report, mainly do it once a year.

[goosiegander]

The problem is Dan, there is no commercially available way of testing car oil for it breaking down, all they can tell you is that your engine is wearing and what parts etc.

I have my oil tested, costs about £22 and I get a nice report, mainly do it once a year.

Thats a bloody good idea,

We send M/E Oil samples off once a month for our vessels, need to see if i can tag on a sample out of interest...

[Mikey_Boy]

^^^^

This is all good stuff!

It depends a lot on WHERE the oil temperature is being measured - main gallery is a good bet as this is closest to what the main bearings will see.

From memory, at Cosworth we designed engines to run 1 - 2 thou oil film thickness at 150 degrees oil temperature. You can bet the oil heats up a bit being squshed through oil pumps and bearings so I would suggest about 120 degrees at your main gallery is good guide for a max temp.

Mineral 10W30 falls off a cliff in terms of performance at about 150 degrees - full synthetics are OK on short excursions up to 160...

For a laugh, I had my 100,000 mile gear oil analysed by some F1 boffins when I was involved in that game to see how that had faired after NEVER being changed and abused in my daily driver - result?? Still within tolerance...

Bottom line - always good to change oil often! Always good to buy the best you can afford and always good to measure temps as well, in the right place!!

[Mikey_Boy]

Nick,

You asked for advice, if you choose not to take it thats fine.

Let me explain why 10w40 is no good (esp at 110-120º)

the S50 vanos relies on high oil pressures to operate, your cheap 10w40 at 100º is already past its operating limits for this engine.

A good 10w40 has a viscosity of 13.4cST at @ 100º and a good 10w60 easter oil has a viscosity of 24.1cST, thats 80% better than 10w40! Your cheap oil will be liquid water at 120º and evaporating at an alarming rate.

What do i know................

^^^ Depends on the amount of viscosity index improver and other elements of the additive pack as well Andrew - if there's a lot of molybdenum additive, a 10W40 will be fine... ;) Not sure what minimum visocity the VANOS needs though - but... you are right in what you say - higher visco will look after the VANOS at high temps better. What is dangerous is if your visco is TOO high at elevated temps, you can push too much oil out of the bearings, but again, what you say above is bascially correct...

[Demlotcrew]

On S14's the oil temp is after the oil cooler, filter and before it hits the mail oil gallery in the block.

Mike, those numbers are taken from Castrol TDS's so they should be absolutely spot on.

Andrew

[Mikey_Boy]

No doubt Andrew - what you say is 100% spot on!

Does the S50 have a similar arrangement for oil temp measurement?

Just making the point that oils can take a bit more abuse than we give them credit for, but we also need to look after our track toys a bit more as well!

[Demlotcrew]

Im pretty sure the S50 is the same, another problem with our engines is the fuel dilution, this has a dramatic effect on the oil, I have always concluded that if the oil remains a nice clear colour, its not doing its job too well.

[harry_p]

thanks for the note Harry and i will keep an eye on that.

what brand is it?

Sorry, didn't realise I hadn't said!

It's castrol edge 10w60 fully synthetic.

Their site is a bit dodgy though as if you just browse for oils it'll get you to put your reg or car make and model in and only list the oils they think are right, but if you search for castrol edge in the search box on the front page it should come up.

[harry_p]

just to bump this again, i did an oilchange on my e36, s50b32 using castrol edge 10w60, but doing some reading around i've seen people say that 10w60 is too thick and can cause vanos seals to fail, and should be using a 10w40 or even 5w40.

now, it's always been my understanding that at cold a 10w60 will have the same viscosity as a 10w40, but the 60 will retain more of it's viscosity at high temperatures

i'm not particularly worried as it's been on a diet of the same oil for the past 4 years / 50,000+ miles but it did make me wonder.

afaik the original oil specification for e36 m3s was 10w40.

[goosiegander]

Just checked the Opie oil site and they list the S50B30 as 10w40...

[harry_p]

i'm not keen on the way opie sells some of their oils either, again i've seen them reccomend 0w40 or 5w40 for track used s14s, but many people who actually use them regularly on track prefer 10w60, or even 15w50

i suppose, like all things it's impossible to actually find out whats 'best' unless you have two identical engines run under identical conditions and then have the oil analysed.

[Demlotcrew]

This is a great comparison for the different oil 'weights'

Select which one fits your function most.



With the current development of my oil cooling circuit, if my temps are well in the 90º mark I might move down a grade to get back some internal drag. Will have to see, as the protection will suffer as a result.

I have also looked in to a custom metal mesh oil filter to help get the resistance down and the flow up.

PS castrol say the S50 should have 5w40 Edge

Andrew

[harry_p]

just checked, and for an s14 they suggest 10w40 as a standard, 5w40 as an upgrade, and 5w40 for an s50b32

[UweM3]

in germany they have non speed restricted motorways. And the average temperature is higher than UK as well.

The average M3 owners is able to trash his car on full yonk down the motorway at any day in the week and as long as he wants. Long term full throttle is the best thing you can do to wear your engine out. And all with 10k miles+ oil change intervals.
and I guess a lot of run down M3's don't even see regular oil changes. And guess what, same"careful" owners don't give a shit about warming the engine up before trashing it either.
And do they blow up by the dozen?

Go figure.....

[DasChin]

Andrew

is that comparison for regular oil changes? ie every 10k miles?

I can see why the 10w 60 is so popular in that case.

i think as uwe says its down to your choice and preference really. its a minefield. S50 is a different beasty to the S14 which is a very sensitive engine i appreciate.

I went out in a few at cadwell today which was really nice.

thanks for all the input. I will stll to regular oil and filter changes to give the old girl the best chance possible. ran like a dream today and hardly used any oil ;0)

[DasChin]

got this from a thread and a post by a man that works in Oils, albeit it with Bike Engines but same principles:

The old fashioned manner for using a cheap oil and changing it more frequently will not help your engines. Modern engines are manufactured to very tight tolerances and therefore the correct type and viscosity oil should be used.

Usually, these are fairly long term, except in racing. Think of the oil as a liquid component, and poor oil as a cheap pattern spare. In a touring bike, long-term reliability and performance retention (i.e. acceleration figures below new spec., fuel and oil consumption above) are the casualties. Particularly in a high performance or racing bike, the effects can be more immediate and catastrophic. I recently saw a Honda CBR 600 crankcase/block from a racing sidecar. All 4 bores were scored from top to bottom on the thrust sides, and all 4 pistons ruined, needless to say. The whole casting had to be scrapped. After spending a lot of cash on race preparation, the owner had saved a few quid by using a cheap 10W/40'workshop' oil, probably API SG or lower, , and the used oil had sheared down to SAE 30.

What is the best type of oil to use in a road bike for general riding? Is fully synthetic a waste of money?

Personally I’d go for a shear-stable ester semi-synthetic, SAE 10W/40 or 10W/30. The ”˜shear-stable’ bit (i.e., a decent quality multigrade polymer) is actually more important than the ”˜synthetic’ part! If strapped, I’d go for a shear-stable mineral based oil rather than a ”˜synthetic’ of dubious stability that’s probably based on modified mineral oil anyway. Unless you’re covering a huge annual mileage, genuine 100% synthetics are probably an extravagance. High mileage long-distance fans can use a light full synthetic and save on fuel and oil changes, and cut overhaul costs if things get to that stage, but more later”¦..

How important is it to change oil regularly? What are the implications of failing to do so?

It is only really important to change oil regularly if the bike covers a low annual mileage made up of slow, short runs. This is being cruel to the oil and the engine! The oil, regardless of its quality, gets full of fuel and water vapour, and never gets the chance to evaporate it all off with a long fast run. The consequences are corrosion, ring and bore wear, and gear tooth pitting. It is essential to do a change at least once a year, even if the recommended mileage hasn’t been covered. On the other hand, if you eat up the miles on long blasts the engine and its oil will love it, so with a top-quality oil it is OK to cheat a little on oil drain periods.


What is the difference between road and racing oils?

The days of incense-like ”˜R’ oils for racing only are past, except for classics. At least as far as 4-strokes are concerned, the best synthetic types are ideal for both race and road use. (Well, that’s our policy. All With ultra-precise components, high-pressure pumps and high engine RPM there has been a move to special synthetic low cavitation/low drag oils to release more power with no reliability loss. These can be (and are!) used in road bikes, but 0W/20 is not mentioned in the user handbooks, so there is always some warranty risk.

How does a high-performance oil allow the motor to produce more power?

An engine wastes fuel energy in several ways, and most of them are due to the laws of thermodynamics, which is another way of saying you can’t do much about it. But up to 6% of engine output is lost due to oil drag, made up of pumping losses and viscous drag between moving components. The transmission is included in this in most motorcycles. Provided wear and friction are kept down, there are real gains to be made by using a ”˜tough’ but low viscosity oil. Surprisingly, frictional losses are low, down at 3% or less even with conventional oils, so there are few gains to be made here.

I have actually seen this extra power output on the dyno! A very experienced operator in Peterboro who does a lot of test work for XXXXX used his own year-old Honda Blackbird, with the first run on his favourite 15W/50 high-ester synthetic. 128BHP. Then we changed to a 5W40 high ester synthetic. (So it wasn’t an unfair comparison with B & Q 15W/50!) This time we saw 131.6BHP with a corresponding torque increase. Finally we went to a new (at that time) 0W/20 special synthetic and 134.4BHP appeared! Even the boss was impressed! Later trials in different race and road bikes showed this level of improvement was no fluke, so it really does work; and, with the right chemistry to look after the engine and transmission internals, there’s no down side of increased wear.

There are all sorts of additives available which are supposed to improve ordinary oil and reduce friction, improve power output etc. Are they worth a try?

Oil is already a very advanced and deeply researched fluid which does not need any ”˜enhancement’. There is no secret formula out in the backwoods that the mainstream lubricant chemists do not know about; but there are plenty of half-baked ideas and gullible people out there! These wonder additives are usually 1930s chlorinated paraffins, long obsolete gear oil additives which should have disappeared in the 1950s, but they keep turning up as ”˜Xxtrasuperlube ZX3’ with a mark-up of several thousand percent. They actually corrode engine and transmission internals, so they do far more harm than good. Others depend upon the total myth that PTFE powder coats engine internals and reduces friction. It doesn’t do anything or the sort. It just blocks the oil filter. The AA tested one of these overpriced PTFE concoctions (”˜Quick 60’ or something) very thoroughly back in the 80s. They stated: ”˜This is an expensive way of coating your oil filter’.

[Jhonno]

Nice find Nick!

So more expensive oil for your chariot now then?

[DasChin]

er nope. sticking with 10w40 fella I think as the biker guy said.

works well with the S50.

[Jhonno]

er nope. sticking with 10w40 fella I think as the biker guy said.

works well with the S50.

Biker dude commented on quality of oil also.. Cheap oil changed often is still pants. Cannot remember what oil you are using!

[DasChin]

Opie Oils and Mobil recommend 10w40 semi synth for the S50. I feel that the S50 in mine is pulling a lot less weight than std so probably less stressed even though its used on track most of the time.

others say 5w50 or 5w40. its a ruddy minefield.

I only use decent 10w40 so that is that really. i might look at 5w40 or 5w50 in future as bit less resistant than 10w40 but don't want it pi55in out of the seals like I have seen on others if the oil is too thin when hot.

[UweM3]

Opie Oils and Mobil recommend 10w40 semi synth for the S50. I feel that the S50 in mine is pulling a lot less weight than std so probably less stressed even though its used on track most of the time.

others say 5w50 or 5w40. its a ruddy minefield.

I only use decent 10w40 so that is that really. i might look at 5w40 or 5w50 in future as bit less resistant than 10w40 but don't want it pi55in out of the seals like I have seen on others if the oil is too thin when hot.

I am always sceptical about the pissing it out because it's too thin statement.
If something is sealed tight, it is sealed. End of story. No matter of what you fill it up with.
It might take longer to leak out with a thicker fluid, but in the end it's going to leak if the seal is not intact IMHO.

Not wanting to start an argument, just my own thinking really.

Maybe a matter of chemical construction of "thin" oil and gasket material not getting on with each other over time?

For any highly stressed engine I have ever used/owned, always filled it up with Motul 300V. Never had an issue and parts always looked very good when I had to take things apart.

[Demlotcrew]

I agree, and if going by your argument the "decent" oil you're using will be more likely to leak, especially with the temps you're seeing.

[bss325i]

just checked, and for an s14 they suggest 10w40 as a standard, 5w40 as an upgrade, and 5w40 for an s50b32

Just checked the latest BMW technical data for oil grades and it's TWS (10w60) for S14, S50 and S54.

[Demlotcrew]

just checked, and for an s14 they suggest 10w40 as a standard, 5w40 as an upgrade, and 5w40 for an s50b32

Just checked the latest BMW technical data for oil grades and it's TWS (10w60) for S14, S50 and S54.

It has been for a very long time Bazza, Other retailers seem to quite different for some reason. I didnt want to get in to another pissing contest so I kept my mouth firmly up my arse.