Brake servo and MC on driver's side

[redcar]

Hello,

Just wanted to ask if anyone has any links to build threads where people have moved the MC and servo to the driver's side (RHD) of the car using a non standard pedal cluster (from an e36 for example). I've had a look at Glenn's as well as quite a few pedal box setups, but i'd be grateful if anyone could provide a link to some other setups people have done move the MC and servo to the right hand side of the car.

Thank you.

[Motorhole]

I would've thought the steering linkage and exhaust would intrude on the space quite significantly? Also putting the brake reservoir & master cylinder close to the exhaust may cause problems keeping brake fluid cool.

[redcar]

I would've thought the steering linkage and exhaust would intrude on the space quite significantly? Also putting the brake reservoir & master cylinder close to the exhaust may cause problems keeping brake fluid cool.

Hi Motorhole,

I just wanted to ask because when fitting an engine with the exhaust manifold on the other side, the manifold would hit the servo and MC...so ideally the MC and servo would be moved over to the driver's side to avoid problems with damaging seals etc. in the brake MC as a result of heat from the manifold.

Thanks.

[GeoffBob]

If you are fitting an engine with the exhuast manifold on the left then I think it would make good sense to move the servo and M/C to the right, provided you can make all the necessary modifications to the firewall and the servo clears the intake manifold etc. I'd be interested to hear what engine you have in mind.

[redcar]

If you are fitting an engine with the exhuast manifold on the left then I think it would make good sense to move the servo and M/C to the right, provided you can make all the necessary modifications to the firewall and the servo clears the intake manifold etc. I'd be interested to hear what engine you have in mind.

Hi GeoffBob, that's exactly what my thoughts were.
The exhaust manifold and turbo on an SR20 are less than cms from the MC and servo. Therefore, i think it makes sense to hit 2 birds with one stone and move the servo and MC over to the driver's side of the car as to avoid damaging the MC and servo, and to certainly improve the poor feel of a RHD e30 brake pedal.

I've had a read of Glenn's ideas regarding his old S62 swap and that looks ideal although the pictures won't load.

On an SR20 the inlet manifold is very far everything on that side of the car, so the servo wouldn't interfere with that at all.

I'd certainly be interested on your thoughts about this Geoff. I understand from a few posts of yours that i've read, that you use a pedal box, as does Theo and f0xy is currently going that way too. However, for a road car i think a servo and MC setup would be more suited. I'd love to hear your thoughts as to whether this makes sense or if it would "be a waste of time and too difficult."

Thanks.

[Motorhole]

I just wanted to ask because when fitting an engine with the exhaust manifold on the other side, the manifold would hit the servo and MC...

Ah, this makes sense now!

[GeoffBob]

I'd certainly be interested on your thoughts about this Geoff. I understand from a few posts of yours that i've read, that you use a pedal box, as does Theo and f0xy is currently going that way too. However, for a road car i think a servo and MC setup would be more suited. I'd love to hear your thoughts as to whether this makes sense or if it would "be a waste of time and too difficult.

If it’s a road car then I would advise against fitting a pedal box. My car is track only and I wouldn’t want to drive it on the road. Non servo assisted brakes are great for on the track where linear brake response is valued, but on the road I’d rather have assisted brakes. Having said that I seem to recall that Theo’s car is road legal, so it may be worth getting his opinion on the matter. Pity he’s not around as much as he used to.

Unfortunately I have no experience with moving across the brake servo on an E30. If, however, you can weld (MIG, TIG or gas, not arc) then you should be able weld in place a plate to support the servo with the pedals behind. I am afraid I know nothing about the E36. Was the servo on the right? If it was then I don’t see why you couldn’t extract the pedals and servo etc. from an E36 and see if it will fit. As long as it doesn’t foul the right strut tower then you should be OK. Just be sure to use a tandem M/C that is compatible with your callipers. Take note that if you decide to change your callipers later you could run into problems unless you find a compatible tandem M/C.

But please, don’t take my word only. There plenty of others on the zone with more experience in this regard than myself.

Best of luck,
Geoff

[glenn]

hello harjun,
have a look at my v10 thread, i've moved the servo over to the offside on this project. i basicly used the set-up off a rhd car...in reverse. but you could use most of the parts, to do the same, but activated via a link from the rhd pedal.

[f0xy]

done

[GeoffBob]

No flies on you mate. What size M/C?
25.4mm (1.00") to match your callipers I hope!

[redcar]

done

Awesome work mate.

I believe it's a 23mm Clio MC. Great work.

[f0xy]

Yeah its 23mm. Im going to have a look out for a 25mm to fit in the gap - I saw your link in the other thread Geoff. Apparently Audi 80's and a few other older cars have a 25mm master too so we'l see!

[GeoffBob]

F0xy, I thought this was a track car only? What happened to:

I'm still going with the pedal box and separate MC's, but it was just something that was discussed a few evenings ago.

Great work, but honestly, you need a larger M/C else your pedal will be long and spongy (given your size callipers) making it difficult to modulate your brakes round the track. Suffer brake fade due to brake fluid overheating and you risk bottoming out that pedal on the floor. A 27mm (17/16") bore M/C would be an even better choice given your callipers. 23mm is just too small!

EDIT: Nissan 350Z (2002 onwards) used a 27mm (17/16") bore tandem M/C. Not sure if the mounting would be compatible though. See here. Worth looking into imo.

[f0xy]

It is Geoff, and I really wanted to run a complete separate MC pedalbox - but unfortunately there is a lead time of a few weeks on the pedal box I wanted, and the first outing for the car is in 3 weeks. Simply not enough time to allow for any problems IF it arrived in time. When the time comes I will go to separate MCs and re-fab the bulkhead getting rid of the servo mount that was made, but for now I will have to stay as is.

Yeah I was going to go for a 25mm anyway, I just used the cylinder/MC combo to get the work done yesterday. With regards to 27mm, il have to have a look what that could possibly come on - luckily the clio servo has an adjustable pin inside that winds in and out quite a way and should take most master cylinders pending the mounting holes being the same

[redcar]

F0xy, would a skyline r33 gtr master cylinder bolt up onto the clio servo?

[GeoffBob]

See my edit above RE: 350Z tandem M/C. I suspect it may be the same as the Skyline part to which you refer Redcar.

[redcar]

350z has 4 pot brembos up front and twin pots rear doesn't it?
Think that it may be the same as the r33 gtr setup as that also has 4 and 2 pot brembos.

Would be very interesting if it fit and worked well.

F0xy, does the bulkhead flex at all when you press the brakes? Or will you require a master cylinder stopper, i.e. an item which bolts to the 3 holes on the strut tower, and then falls in front of the master cylinder, so it doesn't move when you press the brake.

[GeoffBob]

unfortunately there is a lead time of a few weeks on the pedal box I wanted, and the first outing for the car is in 3 weeks. Simply not enough time to allow for any problems IF it arrived in time.

I understand F0xy. You certainly pulled your finger out getting that Clio Servo in, that's for sure

The Clio servo (so far as I know) has a double diaphragm inside, providing significantly more servo assistance than a single diaphragm servo, so don't be shy going larger with your M/C. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating a rock hard pedal, but you need to feel the pedal on the track. Pedal modulation comes about by tensing and relaxing the muscles in your leg. Modulating your brake torque by adjusting the height of the pedal (by lifting your foot up and down) while you can barely feel the pedal under your foot is no fun. The fact that the response of a servo is non linear, providing greater and greater assistance as you apply more pedal force makes it more difficult to feel when the brakes are on the edge of locking up.

A further advantage of a larger M/C (that is often forgotten) is that it can physically pump more fluid (compared to a smaller bore M/C of same length) before it bottoms out. You can always push harder on a pedal if you need to with a larger M/C, but bottom out that cylinder on a smaller M/C and you might as well open the door and put your foot out!

[f0xy]

Bulkhead does not flex no as its been plated and welded.

The R33/350Z master cylinder is a possibility, but no idea whether it would fit on the clio servo without having one in front of me (or the measurements of the mounting points). The internal push rod would also need to be wound out on the clio so it meets up with the MC properly.

I just had a quick look to see if there were any R33s or 350Z's breaking locally to me so I could go for a measure, but it seems there is not much. I also came across a post on a forum saying some older transit diesels have a 27mm MC, and look very similar to the Clio MC...

[redcar]

Bulkhead does not flex no as its been plated and welded.

The R33/350Z master cylinder is a possibility, but no idea whether it would fit on the clio servo without having one in front of me (or the measurements of the mounting points). The internal push rod would also need to be wound out on the clio so it meets up with the MC properly.

I just had a quick look to see if there were any R33s or 350Z's breaking locally to me so I could go for a measure, but it seems there is not much. I also came across a post on a forum saying some older transit diesels have a 27mm MC, and look very similar to the Clio MC...

I have the r33 gtr master cylinder and servo here as well as an s14 master and servo here if you needed some measurements?

[f0xy]

Just need the distance between the two bolts that mount it to the servo on the R33 really, and I will be able to tell you straight away whether it would fit onto it!

[GeoffBob]

I see the 27mm 350Z M/C listed here has the fluid outlets on the left side. Handy for avoiding the strut tower if it fits the Clio servo.

[f0xy]

Looks like it could be worth looking at - if I can find one to check the dimensions of!

[redcar]

Here are pictures for measurements of both an s14 and r33 gtr servo, excuse the poor parallex errors, i've written correct measurements underneath.

r33 gtr mc

r33 gtr mc next to stock s14 mc



Again, 8cm



comparison of much larger depth r33 gt servo relative to the s14 servo. They both have similar outer diameters



15 cm length of s14 mc





8 cm

s14 servo and mc

s14 servo and mc

s14 servo and mc

[GeoffBob]

Tasty looking bits Redcar, nice pics!

80mm centre-to-cente any good for your Clio servo F0xy?

[redcar]

Tasty looking bits Redcar, nice pics!

80mm centre-to-cente any good for your Clio servo F0xy?

Haha cheers Geoff. 80mm centre-to-centre on the bolts is right

Took some photos of inside the servo as well so you can see it your clio one will be compatible.

Also, F0xy, judging by the measurements, do you think an r33 gtr servo and mc would bolt in?

[redcar]

BM33 = 13/16
BM38 = 7/8
BM44 (s14 one) = 15/16
BM50 = 1"
BM57 (r33 gtr one) = 1 1/16

Now what is that in mm talk

[redcar]

So r33 gtr one is 27mm and the s14 one is 24 mm.

[f0xy]

The clio is 60mm center to center sigh!!

Looking at the R33 one it looks like the mounting 'arms' have quite a bit of material on the inside of them, maybe drill two holes 10mm further in on each side if there is enough material to play with...

EDIT - r33 servo looks far to deep, total length of servo and MC has to be under 210mm total length.

[redcar]

Ah, that's a shame.
Could you slot the holes on the MC, or drill new ones and weld the old ones up so it would fit the clio servo?

What about the s14 servo f0xy, or is it too late to start changing servos?

[f0xy]

S14 servo looks like it could fit.. Could you measure centre to centre on the rear mounting threads (that go to the chassis)? Also the total length when the R33 servo is mounted to it (from end of MC to back of Servo where its flush against the bulkhead?

- Depth of S14 servo
- Length of R33 cylinder
- Total Length of both together

Cheers

[redcar]

S14 servo looks like it could fit.. Could you measure centre to centre on the rear mounting threads (that go to the chassis)? Also the total length when the R33 servo is mounted to it (from end of MC to back of Servo where its flush against the bulkhead?

- Depth of S14 servo
- Length of R33 cylinder
- Total Length of both together

Cheers

Sure mate, i'll get those for you in a bit...
So you want:
- Depth of S14 servo
- Length of R33 cylinder
- Total Length of both together (r33 mc on s14 servo)
- And then you want me to measure the centre to centre on the rear mounting threads?

Will get those 4 for you Do you want the outer diamete of the s14 servo too?

[f0xy]

Yep plus the diameter too please! Cheers

[GeoffBob]

BM33 = 13/16
BM38 = 7/8
BM44 (s14 one) = 15/16
BM50 = 1"
BM57 (r33 gtr one) = 1 1/16

Now what is that in mm talk

I'm a metric man myself, but oddly it still makes more sense to me to think of M/C's in imperial units. M/C's are sized/graded in sixteenths of an inch, where one inch is 25.4mm. 1 & 1/16 " is simply 17/16" or 27mm.

Personally, I'd find a way to make the BM57 M/C fit the Clio servo (by changing one or the other) or throw the Clio servo out in favour of a Nissan servo.

[GeoffBob]

I just popped a vernier under the bonnet of my 2005 2700i Toyota Hilux. Has a 240mm diameter x 115mm deep servo with 80mm between M/C mounting holes.

F0xy, I suspect a trip to a scrappy that deals in Jap cars will yield results for you. If Nissan and Toyota use 80mm as a standard hole spacing, then chances are Mazda will too. Must be oodles of Jap servo's to choose from that would meet your requirements.