Fuel and brake lines?

[Driftben]

Has anyone run complete new fuel and brake lines throughout the E30? I was going to keep them underneath the car to comply with regs but I'm undecided on either braided lines or solid copper lines?
Has anyone changed these before?

Thanks
Ben

[rix313]

Braided lines are painfuly expensive. To run braided lines through the inside of my car to run a bias valve, the quote was over £100 iirc for a meter and a half of pipe. I made them from copper and covered them in black protective spiral wrap to make them look better, cost less than £15, wasn't much contest.

[Driftben]

where did you get your copper pipe and fittings rix? good idea on the bias valve, looks like that will be the route i shall be taking on the brakes then. just need to find out on the fueling?
thanks for the info and picture

[rix313]

Try Think Automotive, they're generaly the cheapest for this sort of stuff. They should be able to advise you on the fuel pipe too. IIRC if you race and run braided fuel pipe through the cabin it now has to be some painfuly expensive aerospace spec stuff which is an unbearable amount of money per/m.

This is where the pipe goes after the valve:



It goes through a rubber grommet in the bulkhead and has a nice big loop around to the T-piece under the car.

I was a bit of a tit though and that bias valve is too far back to easily adjust whilst driving

[Driftben]

lovely thanks for the picture rix, thats cleared the braking up. do the fittings need to be pressed on or are they the compression sort?

thanks
ben

[rix313]

For the brake pipes you'll need a M10 x 1 male union at each end and you'll need to have the end of the pipe flared to keep them on and create a seal. The flare needs to be convex (a.k.a. pointy).

HTH

[Driftben]

thats brill thanks rix, ill get a flairing tool on order, some pipes and fittings on order too.... woop woop

[Driftben]

just a quick pic on what i will be wanting to pipe up fuel wise, im missing the main fuel filter there i know

[rix313]

What fuel pumps are you using there? I've got a 30L ATL cell I want to fit to mine, looks very similar to yours actualy

[Driftben]

im using a facet red top lift pump to feed the swirl pot and a sytec motorsport inline pump to feed the engine.
i wanted to get a ATL fuel cell but they were abit out of my price range so i found a real good alternative which is a Summit racing cell with level sender unit.

what sort of setup was you going for?

[e21Jason]

I have used a mixture of hard and flex lines for fuel, in rally cars tend to run them inside with brake lines using Krontec tubing, as there is more risk of damage under the car. On a couple of MK2 escorts we ran 2 20mm tubes across the floor so they pooked out the bulkhead at each end which meantt we could run cheap braided lines and provide mechanical protection.

Track car generally just use new oem lines under the car with braided flex at either end.

Fuel tank check you have a tip over valve, run the breather to atmosphere to a point higher than the tank, if not then you need a 1 way valve in the breather line, if your putting a splash bowl in the boot with the filler you need to run a drain hose from the splash bowl to outside.

[rix313]

im using a facet red top lift pump to feed the swirl pot and a sytec motorsport inline pump to feed the engine.
i wanted to get a ATL fuel cell but they were abit out of my price range so i found a real good alternative which is a Summit racing cell with level sender unit.

what sort of setup was you going for?

I hadn't really looked into a set up yet tbh hence my interest My cell is an old Ginetta G20 one and was free so would've been rude not to have taken it I recon it'll be 'one of those things I'll get round to one day' lol. Looking forward to seeing you'rs done though

[Driftben]

I have used a mixture of hard and flex lines for fuel, in rally cars tend to run them inside with brake lines using Krontec tubing, as there is more risk of damage under the car. On a couple of MK2 escorts we ran 2 20mm tubes across the floor so they pooked out the bulkhead at each end which meantt we could run cheap braided lines and provide mechanical protection.

Track car generally just use new oem lines under the car with braided flex at either end.

Fuel tank check you have a tip over valve, run the breather to atmosphere to a point higher than the tank, if not then you need a 1 way valve in the breather line, if your putting a splash bowl in the boot with the filler you need to run a drain hose from the splash bowl to outside.

so really jason, it would still be ok to run new copper fuels lines under the car and convert to braided at either end?
is there anywhere i can buy solid copper hoses suitable for fuel with fittings?
on my fuel tank i belive to have a tip over valve and a breather which is on the top of the tank. i still need to figure out how im going to fill the tank because of the tank being at the back of the boot and the filler point is under the parcel shelf?

I hadn't really looked into a set up yet tbh hence my interest My cell is an old Ginetta G20 one and was free so would've been rude not to have taken it I recon it'll be 'one of those things I'll get round to one day' lol. Looking forward to seeing you'rs done though

you cant get much better than free
im hoping ill be ordering the pipework on friday so ill keep you updated with plenty of pictures

[E30BeemerLad]

don't use copper for fuel lines, use steel as copper conducts heat more.

You are best off using solid lines for as much as possible and then just braided sections at the ends as braided hose does still swell and will give a naff brake pedal if you rant braided for the length of the brake lines

[Driftben]

so steel mico bore for fuel then and copper for braking?

what size would be best for the fuel? 8mm?

[GeoffBob]

what size would be best for the fuel? 8mm?

All depends on your fuel flow requirements to support your engines hp. I used two Walbro 255 litre/hour submersible pumps (at least I think that's what I used?) through 3/8" stainless tubing (each) to support ~450hp at the flywheel. Each length of 3/8" tubing supplied either end of the fuel rail. Stainless tubing (roughly 9.5mm OD, 7.5mm ID) and stainless or brass Swagelok compression fittings (including hose adapters to join to fuel filters etc) are available from most pneumatic and hydraulic suppliers, just not from your average plumbers.

Keep in mind, the larger the diameter of your fuel pipe the lower the pressure drop along the length of pipe for the required fuel flow rate. Fuel pump specs are quoted as pump pressure, which is by definition rail pressure (typically around 3 bar on most cars) plus whatever drop you have down the line. Any line restriction simply makes your pump work harder at higher pressure to flow the required fuel. Half of what I installed above is more than ample for 225hp.

[GeoffBob]

Oh, and you'll need a handy little hand operated bending tool to bend up the tubing. Really easy to use and makes a fab neat job. Don't try bend the tube around your knee, you'll only make a mess of it and it's a sad waste of expensive tubing.

Best of luck.

[Driftben]

well the pump will be supplying a N/A (at the moment) M60b40 which will be just over the 300hp mark, so i was going to use -6ans pipe and fittings (8mm ID)
the fuel pump i have is rated over 350bhp but im not sure how far over it will feed upto?

im still trying to find a suitable store which supplys a roll of steel pipework for fuel?

[Driftben]

does anyone know if this would be ok for fuel under the chassis?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-4-x-2-5MTR- ... 2ea8add3b7

oh and iv just grabbed myself a pipe bend thanks geoff

[GeoffBob]

im still trying to find a suitable store which supplys a roll of steel pipework for fuel?

The stuff I bought came in 6m lengths. Was way too solid to roll up. Nothing like the flexible copper that you see air-con techies using - much stiffer! The sort of stuff that you see used in industry for high pressure gas and fluids. I use it at work for plumbing in my Argon, Nitrogen and Hydrogen cylinders. Ideal for running under a car (if you have to) as its really strong, and inside a car since it's unlikely it'll ever leak.

[Driftben]

i think the stuff your on about is called 'micro bore'. iv had run ins with this before which is why i have myself a set of micro bore pipe benders.
would that be suitable for in car the geoff? also would it be FIA proof do you recon?

[GeoffBob]

[Driftben]

so would the ebay nickel be ok for the braking only then?
i think i know what you mean for the fuel now, i may beable to get some from work as its not the cheapest of pipe work?
would you run the stainless pipe in the cab as well as long as i can make it out of a continous length?

[Driftben]

think i may have found the stuff you was on about?

http://www.metals4u.co.uk/detail.asp?ca ... rd_id=3138

[GeoffBob]

think i may have found the stuff you was on about?

http://www.metals4u.co.uk/detail.asp?ca ... rd_id=3138

Yeh, that's the sort of thing. Mine was specifically 3/8" OD as I opted to use imperial 3/8" swagelok compression fittings which are freely avaiable over here. The tubing I bought was definitely seamless and I bought it from a shop that specialised in hydraulic and pneumatic components. The tubing I bought was certified to 1000psi or thereabouts iirc. It had a relatively dull finish (was not polished). One 6m length had both my fuel lines sorted front to back.

[GeoffBob]

would you run the stainless pipe in the cab as well as long as i can make it out of a continous length?

Inside and out if you want to. You can always install a union if you need a join two sections of pipe. Swagelok and Parker make all kinds of fittings for joining pipe to pipe and pipe to tubing. Google Swagelok and you'll see what I mean. They even do bulk-head fittings for where you need to run lines through walls.

[GeoffBob]

Heres an example of a swagelok fitting for joining two lengths of 3/8" stainless tubing together:



Also available for 6, 8 and 10mm metric pipes. Details at http://www.swagelok.com. Definitely available in the UK. Parker fittings are similar.

[Driftben]

i think i may have found someone who can get me some 6mm id pipe at £2 a meter so thats sorted that. ill try and get the flow and return done in complete lengths of pipework so i dont have to join them because it would be easier to put them in the cab with the brake lines.

ill have a look at those websites for fittings though geoff, thanksalot for all the info on this
have you got any pictures on your install?

[GeoffBob]

[Driftben]

nice engine bay geoff
i have called acouple of places about pipework and fittings but dont seem to be getting anywhere with it. not many have what im after which is shocking..
it may have to be a internet jobbie

[Motorhole]

Braided lines are painfuly expensive. To run braided lines through the inside of my car to run a bias valve, the quote was over £100 iirc for a meter and a half of pipe. I made them from copper and covered them in black protective spiral wrap to make them look better, cost less than £15, wasn't much contest.

Hi there, sorry to resurrect this thread, but Rix, on those photo, what clips are you using there to fix the brake line to the transmission tunnel?

[Driftben]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think they are 'P' clips. Ŷou can buy them from rallydesign.co.uk ;)

[rix313]

Rubber lined p-clips. I used to get them from work but any I've bought had been on ebay.

[e21Jason]

I would still go with new oem fuel lines under the car, not that dear and come pre-bent.

You need automotive grade copper for the lines as the domestic type stuff is soft and not resistant to vibration so can work harded

http://www.cbsonline.co.uk/category/Fue ... ine,b.html

[Motorhole]

Hi Jason,

Yeah, that's the plan. Replacing the corroded fuel lines with oem items, but running the rear-front brake lines inside the car to the pedal box, obviously using a short piece of braided line to complete the connection to the master cylinder.