E36 328i vs E30 328i as a track car?

[Andy325i]

If both had equal power and simular weight which would be the quicker tool?

What weight can you sensibly get both shells down to?

Would a Coupe/ 4 Door E36 shell make much difference to weight/ strenth?

Is the E46 suspension design worth the premium over the E36?

What engine would you run?

All informed thoughts appreciated

Andy

[bmartin]

It is interesting that BMW initially ran coupes in supertouring, then later homologated the 4 door. The question is was this done for the inherent advantage of the 4 door over the coupe or was it done for marketing reasons? I suspect the former.

[Andy325i]

I remeber there was a good reason they ran 4 door shells, just can't remeber why!

[e21Jason]

Hi

I have just got back from a track evening and had a few laps in my mates e36 m3, easier to drive fast and cheaper to upgrade than an e30, the rear suspension is more forgiving so you can chuck it around more before it bites you, were my e30 would of been off the e36 hung on.

From the etk a e46 shell is about 50kg lighter than a e36, and the e30 shell is the lightest. I think the e36 would be the cheapest to upgrade, or build a 2.8 m52 e36 compact the shell is lighter than the coupe and the swap is easier.

Jason

[timmy1701]

e36 compacts have the same rear suspension as e30s tho ;P

They are however massively popular here in sweden for trackdays and "our" pbmwc. On some days they even rival e30s in number, always outnumber all other shells of e36 if you dont count m3s and for two years running its been a compact that won the bmwcup.

The compact Mafia is not to be messed with!

If i remember correctly the 4door is some amount stiffer then the coupe because of some crossbeam thing behind the seats to make up for its extra doors also you can get the weight down more when you lighten the doors. Even so you would still get ATLEAST 100kg lighter car in an e30 if you put the same effort into it, and therefore a faster car on track.

[Andy325i]

If i remember correctly the 4door is some amount stiffer then the coupe because of some crossbeam thing behind the seats to make up for its extra doors also you can get the weight down more when you lighten the doors. Even so you would still get ATLEAST 100kg lighter car in an e30 if you put the same effort into it, and therefore a faster car on track.

Thanx for the replys guys I don't get why the 4 door is stronger, are you saying they braced behind the rear seats? could this be done to a coupe? Thinking the only thing the coupe is missing is the tops of the front doors?

Granted you could make an E30 lighter, but would it make it any quicker around tracks seeing the better suspension setup on the E36 vs the E30 trailing arms?

Andy

[oldroydsr4]

I've had a 328i sport , use a 318ti compact for a daily and have 2 e30s. From my experience the e36 chassis is far more planted than the e30 and the available mechanical grip from the rear suspension is far superior making it far easier to maintain a higher corner speed.

The weight advantage of an e30 would no doubt significantly close the gap. I don't think there are many e36 coupes under 1150kg and with a push you can get an e30 to 1000kg, this is where the e30 is best. With 150kg less the brakes , suspension and tyres all get an easier life.

A 328 compact on the other hand would be a weapon but and would be real wolf in sheeps cothing.

Overall I don't think I would bother with an e30, on the basis that it's so hard to find a good shell and most are just rotters (from experience the underseal offers some serious horrors which most e30 owners will never even know it's there) and your here to make a track car not perform a restoration.

My money would be buying a rough e36 328i and an immaculate compact....

[Jhonno]

Compact runs the same suspension as an E30 though...

I would be buying a 328i sport and gutting it..

[DanThe]

E46 compacts are where its at, now they are 'planted'

[Andy325i]

Compact runs the same suspension as an E30 though...

I would be buying a 328i sport and gutting it..

Funny you say that ;)

[harry_p]

Thanx for the replys guys I don't get why the 4 door is stronger, are you saying they braced behind the rear seats? could this be done to a coupe? Thinking the only thing the coupe is missing is the tops of the front doors?

Andy

4 door e36 is stronger because it has a fixed rear bulkhead, which effectively makes the 'box' that is the shell smaller, and less likely to flex. it's a simple way to add a lot of torsional strength. all e36 coupes have folding rear seats, and hence no rear bulkhead.

supertourers changed to 4 doors to fit the rules of the time, which changed to having to use a 4 (or 5) door vehicle

start with a 4 door and weld up the rear doors and you have an even stiffer shell as the smaller front door openings alone will allow less flex than the large coupe openings.

although, if it's going to be a track car and youre adding a cage and other bits and bobs i doubt whether you start with a 2 or 4 door would make that much difference to the final stiffness

[Andy325i]

Thanx Harry Could the rear bulkhead from a 4 door be fitted to a coupe? Yes it would/ will have a FULL cage

Andy

[1an]

well i have an e36 328 track car and am off to the ring with dad who has a 328 e30 shall see what they are like around the ring etc.

e36's are very cheap to upgrade to a high standard though

[TouringTash]

Is there pics of the bare chassis on the web?

Without seeing them I couldn't say which would be stronger, but I would put my money on Harry_P's answer.
Whats the difference in weights of the two styles? If theres not much in it upto 25kgs between two and four door including the doors (stripped) its got to be worth it.

As for model choice, I wouldn't have a clue as I'm new to BMW's

[moggy]

We were going to purchase an e36 328 as a race car. In the end we plumped for an e30 because it was cheaper up front to buy and at the time there wasn't relatively much available information on race e36's as opposed to e30's and less champs to race in.

The e36 328 is a quick well balanced car and would be a good track car once stripped down. Make sure you get one without the nickasil block (most aren't to be fair IIRC, more an issue for the 325).

[Andy325i]

Make sure you get one without the nickasil block (most aren't to be fair IIRC, more an issue for the 325).

It will have something a lot quicker than the M52 in it

[moggy]

But you'll be selling the M52 though?

[Jonsku]

E36 sedan is the stiffest and the bare body weight is the smallest (according to ETK, www.bmwfans.info):

-sedan 218 kg
-coupe 329 kg
-compact 228 kg

[TouringTash]

looking at this http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do ... g=41&fg=05

and then
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do ... g=41&fg=05

can see the smaller 'hole' for the front doors, this could be why its lighter as there's less distance between the pillars to take the loads or am I just barking

[Bavarian_Autotech]

Make sure you get one without the nickasil block (most aren't to be fair IIRC, more an issue for the 325).

lots more nikasil blocks than steel liners.
tbh its long past the time of worrying about the block, if it hasnt gone now then well it isnt likely too (or if it does go, it probably wont be nikasil issue - even though its a very easy coverall used by people who dont know better)

ive seen a lot more with HG issues than nikasil ones

[Andy325i]

But you'll be selling the M52 though?

No, I said QUICK

[Demlotcrew]

E30 chassis is much stronger and lighter, the E36 will never out handle a E30 with a similar level of tune (its just impossible) at any speed.

Factory cars are however a different story! - In stock trim the E36 is a better (& cheaper) platform to start to track with (because of the geometry advances) and more powerful engines.

I would completely stay away from E36 compacts, they are horrible to drive.

Andrew

[hazd31]

I remeber there was a good reason they ran 4 door shells, just can't remeber why!

they changed to 4 doors in the btcc because of the regulations?