Brakes - talk to me...

[jonnygould]

I done my first trackday on monday with me 325i and was thoroughly impressed by it, we drove it hard all day and it didnt let me down in the slightest...

The only thing i did find a bit poor were the brakes. They didnt fade too much but they just weren't very responsive, i was finding i had to brake alot further away than most...

So, i was wondering what upgrades there are. I dont want an all out bell and rotor system so we can forget that. Im thinking pads and discs should be good enough but is there a 'cheap' and easy caliper upgrade? Im wondering if another models brakes fit, 5 series or something??

cheers for any help....

[DHFiS]

Cheapest option is to get your existing setup in top condition. How old are your disks? Even if they are not badly worn they are cheap to replace. Get a new set of disks from Eurocarparts, pads of your choice (opinions vary as to the best) and bleed through all the old fluid.

It is possible to fit 280mm disks under standard wheels and use Wilwood calipers at a cost of around £500 (check with KeriWMS on this forum).

[jaybrand]

was going to post the same question!!!!.i have heard you can use audi/golf front discs and mazda rx7 calipers for the front and e36 rear vented discs and calipers on the rear .is this correct ? wont to keep standard 15" inch wheels as have a good supply of tarmac tyres.

[cragles]

The racers in the pbmwc championship have to use standard sized disks and standard calipers so I imagine you will be able to find a good brake setup without having to increase the size of your current disks and calipers.

We use brembo vented disks and pagid rs29 pads on the front and standard drums with pagid shoes on the rear, and our car is awesome on the brakes.

Invest in decent brake fluid too

[caneswell]

Standard BMW discs will be better than the Eurocarparts options or similar. I wouldn't bother with grooved or cross-drilled.

You can make significant improvements to performance with decent pads and fluid. I've used a set of standard BMW discs with Pagid RS29 pads on my M3. Work great from cold and are endurance race pads so I've not managed to get them to fade, even with a 20 min session on the Nurburgring GP track. Also by only fitting them when required I got 4 'Ring trips out of them. Which suddenly makes them much less expensive!

Oh yeah and fitting the solid brass caliper pin kits will help with pedal feel too.

[DHFiS]

was going to post the same question!!!!.i have heard you can use audi/golf front discs and mazda rx7 calipers for the front and e36 rear vented discs and calipers on the rear .is this correct ? wont to keep standard 15" inch wheels as have a good supply of tarmac tyres.

Read this thread for caliper upgrade

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... hlight=rx7


I am fitting RX7 calipers but its not certain yet i can use std 15" BBS wheels

[djs325]

There is brand new E30 specific UUC Brake Kit become available in the last few months:

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/CATALOG/bi ... ncl-ix.htm

Might be worth looking at in conjunction with an E32 735/750 Master Cylinder (bigger bore, slightly increases rear bias).

[keri-WMS]

I done my first trackday on monday with me 325i and was thoroughly impressed by it, we drove it hard all day and it didnt let me down in the slightest...

The only thing i did find a bit poor were the brakes. They didnt fade too much but they just weren't very responsive, i was finding i had to brake alot further away than most...

So, i was wondering what upgrades there are. I dont want an all out bell and rotor system so we can forget that. Im thinking pads and discs should be good enough but is there a 'cheap' and easy caliper upgrade? Im wondering if another models brakes fit, 5 series or something??

cheers for any help....

What pads are you running? Also if you are finding people are outbraking you.......what TYRES have you got?

Brakes stop the tyres, but the tyres stop the car.....

[AlpineAde]

There is brand new E30 specific UUC Brake Kit become available in the last few months:

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/CATALOG/bi ... ncl-ix.htm

Might be worth looking at in conjunction with an E32 735/750 Master Cylinder (bigger bore, slightly increases rear bias).

I've been looking at these. They look like a nice bit of kit. Interesting to see they have moved away from Wilwood calipers.

[keri-WMS]

It is possible to fit 280mm disks under standard wheels and use Wilwood calipers at a cost of around £500 (check with KeriWMS on this forum).

Here are the WMS details if it helps (WMS calipers are nothing to do with Wilwood though....)! http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... 9&start=24

..and at home in the 15" BBS.

[Black_Potato]

Bleed the brakes, put in some decent pads, job done.

[jaybrand]

i have pagid front and rear pads .brake fluid ap 600 racing fluid changed every four events braided brake lines all thru the car. if i put more bias to the rear to help the fronts it eats the rears after two meetings. never had any fade and pagid fronts work well ,was just looking at a sensible priced upgrade.was talking to a guy at rockingham with the willwood front set up ,he said they where awesome in the dry but just locked the fronts all the time in the wet.

[keri-WMS]

I don't think the Wilwoods have the option of 1.25"/1.25" pistons to keep the bias sensible, so they are a bit more likely to be a pain in the wet.

Anyone with a bias box you should be able to set the car up to the conditions (all cars need less braking at the front when it's slippery).

Pagid are a very very good pad based on their reputation, but then with the 4 pots/bigger discs you should be able to run cheaper pads and get the same result - maybe EBC Yellows at £35-odd? Results are cheaper running costs/better modulation (no sliders, two pistons per pad) and normally a weight saving.

[Lloydie38]

EBC Yellow pads and decent fluid in my 325 track car, work well, I hammer them and they don't fade - cheap too!

[tez180]

What fluid are people going for then?

[AlpineAde]

AP Racing and Motul are well priced and nice fluids. I've used both, with Motul in the car at the moment. Castrol SRF is pretty bloody awesome but you do pay for it.

[N00b]

AP Racing and Motul are well priced and nice fluids. I've used both, with Motul in the car at the moment. Castrol SRF is pretty bloody awesome but you do pay for it.

You can feel a noticeable difference???
I was going to try some of that superblue stuff but as with everything opinions on what's hot/what's not seem to vary. In your experience the SRF stuff is a league above the rest though?

[billgatese30]

I don't think its worth the money to be honest unless you start boiling everything else, and if you are at that point then perhaps its time to start thinking about better cooling

I've used Motul RBF600/660 and ATE Superblue and never had any problems

[Black_Potato]

I don't think the Wilwoods have the option of 1.25"/1.25" pistons to keep the bias sensible, so they are a bit more likely to be a pain in the wet.

Anyone with a bias box you should be able to set the car up to the conditions (all cars need less braking at the front when it's slippery).

Pagid are a very very good pad based on their reputation, but then with the 4 pots/bigger discs you should be able to run cheaper pads and get the same result - maybe EBC Yellows at £35-odd? Results are cheaper running costs/better modulation (no sliders, two pistons per pad) and normally a weight saving.

It doesnt work like that, you need to read up on the coeficiant of friction of the pad, work out slave cylinder, line pressures blah blah blah

Spending lots of money on new rotors and caliers just so you can run sub standard pads is madness, unless of course you are a supplier of brake calipers.

If you want to spend the money and you think big calipers look great knock yourself out. If you want to spend your budget on what makes your car actually go faster dont bother.

Get decent pads, fresh fluid and spend the rest on other areas.

[keri-WMS]

It doesnt work like that, you need to read up on the coeficiant of friction of the pad, work out slave cylinder, line pressures blah blah blah

Spending lots of money on new rotors and caliers just so you can run sub standard pads is madness, unless of course you are a supplier of brake calipers.

A - Who said anything about sub standard pads? What I mean is that performance pads for race 4 pots are normally much cheaper (£34.32 for yellows) than for E30 OEM calipers (£52.92 for the same spec pad).
B - I'm out of stock, and I here offering friendly advice. The first thing I suggested to the OP was better tyres and possible better pads, I didn't mention calipers.
C - Do you mean you read up the specs of the pad etc when it rains to adjust the bias? Most drivers do it by feel! Do you know the coef of friction of the track then?

If you want to spend the money and you think big calipers look great knock yourself out. If you want to spend your budget on what makes your car actually go faster dont bother.

Get decent pads, fresh fluid and spend the rest on other areas.

Other areas ARE improved if you have light 4 pots! Lower weight = less unsprung mass = more grip = higher cornering speeds and later braking. Better pad control = better braking modulation = ability to brake later. Bigger discs are a bit heavier but they run cooler and keep the pad/fluid temperatures lower.

Motorsport brakes are a huge collection of compromises, and cost is a very large factor. I was only making the point that at least there's one thing about running 4 pots that's better for your pocket if you do a lot of miles...

For the majority of cars I agree that uprated pads, fresh discs and better fluid are the logical first step, otherwise ALL E30's would have 4-pots!

[miniblob]

Interesting thread - still not 100% what i'm gonna do to my brakes, but i've decided i want to still use bbs 15's on track!!

Oh yeah and fitting the solid brass caliper pin kits will help with pedal feel too.

Where do we get that kit?? Never heard of that!!!

So do people reckon the Brembo vented discs and Pagid RS29 pads would be better than OEM discs and Ferodo DS2500 pads?

Will prob go for the above for now, with stainless hoses, E32 master cylinder and SRF fluid!!!

Once i've worn those out, i might have money for a caliper upgrade!!

[Black_Potato]

OEM as in BMW ? or as in cheapy discs from ECP or similar ?

If its BMW discs they are fine, I would say as good as Brembo. ATE are also a decent cheapish brand.

Pad comparison.
RS29's have great bite when hot but need a few applications to get them to really going.
RS29's will work out cheaper as they last for ages although the intial outlay is higher.
DS2500 will probably be better from cold on the road if its also a road car.
DS2500 release a bit better allowing for easier modulation.

As a guide have a look at pad charachteristics on the makers web sites most will give the friction co effiant at temp.. You dont want a rear that offers considerably more friction than the front under most circumstances or temps, especially if you cant play with brake bias. This concept is important if you mix pad compounds front and rear.

I run RS29 on the front and DS2500 on the rear & its a good balance. Only down side it I get through a lot of DS2500.

[miniblob]

Yeah, i meant BMW discs!!! I've used the ECP ones (£13 pair last time iirc!!!) on the road and they're ok, but i wouldn't really wanna put them on the track!!
BMW or Brembo it is then!! Will have to look up the prices!!

Car is/will be used almost daily too, but may still consider trying a set of the RS29's.
Hadn't really given any thought to the rears until now tbh!!! Good point though!! I'll look into it!!

Cheers!!!

[AlpineAde]

AP Racing and Motul are well priced and nice fluids. I've used both, with Motul in the car at the moment. Castrol SRF is pretty bloody awesome but you do pay for it.

You can feel a noticeable difference???
I was going to try some of that superblue stuff but as with everything opinions on what's hot/what's not seem to vary. In your experience the SRF stuff is a league above the rest though?

Yes, it is very good, but there is a "but". It is about $50 odd a litre more than the Motul and I can't justify the cost. I do know of 3 or 4 guys who run it and will not run anything else...but this is in dedicated tarmac rally cars and cars that primarily see a few circuits during the course of the year.

I don't think its worth the money to be honest unless you start boiling everything else, and if you are at that point then perhaps its time to start thinking about better cooling

I've used Motul RBF600/660 and ATE Superblue and never had any problems

Agreed. If you start boiling the lot then perhaps cooling is the thing to look at. It costs peanuts to invest some time and do it yourself, too.

Noob, as Bill says, the Superblue is an option, no doubt. It has a lot of adherents. It would be worth trying (I haven't used it so can't comment).

Whatever fluid you use make sure all existing brake fluid is thoroughly drained and your system is properly purged with the new fluid that you choose. Then fill 'er up and bleed!

[djs325]

This is what I recommend:

-Performance Friction 06 Compound pads (PFC Pn. 0278.06.17.44 front, 0279.06.16.44 rear)
-Slotted Standard Rotors (reputable aftermarket brands, steer clear of drilled, EBC Turbo Groove)
-Braided brake line kit (Goodridge Pn. SBW0012-6, from Halfords or Demon-Tweeks)
-E32 25.4mm ATE Brake Master Cylinder (BMW Pn. 34 31 1 156 643 or ATE Pn. 02.2125-2802.3), will require a t-piece adaptor.
-Solid brake guides and stainless pins (BimmerWorld, Turner Motorsport, VAC).
-Good fluid (Motul, AP Racing; Castrol SRF is best but more expensive)

If you want to buy everything from the one joint, you can bring a package in from BimmerWorld (USA) and they can supply everything: pads, rotors, braided lines (DOT Approved), bigger master cylinder, solid slide guides, and fluid. You could then do a complete caliper overhaul with stainless pistons, new seal kits, and bleed nipples (all from BimmerWorld).

Why am I recommending these things? Because it's exactly what I did to my E30 Racing Car, that I have raced at almost every track in Australia (including Bathurst), and all my brake dramas disappeared with this setup. They work when hot, when cold, with little pressure, with big pressure.

You can fit a replacement caliper & rotor; but the standard configuration is more than capable (with the afore mentioned maintenance/upgrades) for street/track/race use providing you do not greatly increase the weight or the horsepower of the car (less than 20% increase). E30s with upwards of 200fwhp have had no dramas with this setup; though I would have to highly recommend the WMS setup (or something similar) if you engine swap, turbocharge, supercharge, go stroker, or go banzai on the engine.

www.bimmerworld.com
www.turnermotorsport.com
www.vacmotorsports.com
www.performancefriction.com
www.demon-tweeks.co.uk

P.S> I just priced a full overhaul (but excluding rotors & fluid, heavy to ship) from BimmerWorld, it comes in at around US$850 for pads, lines, pistons, seals, nipples, guides and master cylinder upgrade kit. Add rotors and fluids, and you'll be set for a very long time!

[MillRat]

As always Dave, good advice.

You have been hammering this setup on several forums now for very good reason.

Has anyone come to their senses and followed this through on your advise yet, or has everyone tried to re-invent the wheel with questionable success?

[jonnygould]

This is what I recommend:

-Performance Friction 06 Compound pads (PFC Pn. 0278.06.17.44 front, 0279.06.16.44 rear)
-Slotted Standard Rotors (reputable aftermarket brands, steer clear of drilled, EBC Turbo Groove)
-Braided brake line kit (Goodridge Pn. SBW0012-6, from Halfords or Demon-Tweeks)
-E32 25.4mm ATE Brake Master Cylinder (BMW Pn. 34 31 1 156 643 or ATE Pn. 02.2125-2802.3), will require a t-piece adaptor.
-Solid brake guides and stainless pins (BimmerWorld, Turner Motorsport, VAC).
-Good fluid (Motul, AP Racing; Castrol SRF is best but more expensive)

If you want to buy everything from the one joint, you can bring a package in from BimmerWorld (USA) and they can supply everything: pads, rotors, braided lines (DOT Approved), bigger master cylinder, solid slide guides, and fluid. You could then do a complete caliper overhaul with stainless pistons, new seal kits, and bleed nipples (all from BimmerWorld).

Why am I recommending these things? Because it's exactly what I did to my E30 Racing Car, that I have raced at almost every track in Australia (including Bathurst), and all my brake dramas disappeared with this setup. They work when hot, when cold, with little pressure, with big pressure.

You can fit a replacement caliper & rotor; but the standard configuration is more than capable (with the afore mentioned maintenance/upgrades) for street/track/race use providing you do not greatly increase the weight or the horsepower of the car (less than 20% increase). E30s with upwards of 200fwhp have had no dramas with this setup; though I would have to highly recommend the WMS setup (or something similar) if you engine swap, turbocharge, supercharge, go stroker, or go banzai on the engine.

www.bimmerworld.com
www.turnermotorsport.com
www.vacmotorsports.com
www.performancefriction.com
www.demon-tweeks.co.uk

P.S> I just priced a full overhaul (but excluding rotors & fluid, heavy to ship) from BimmerWorld, it comes in at around US$850 for pads, lines, pistons, seals, nipples, guides and master cylinder upgrade kit. Add rotors and fluids, and you'll be set for a very long time!

Cheers for that, sounds like a plan of action, ideal for my use.

[AlpineAde]

As always Dave, good advice.

You have been hammering this setup on several forums now for very good reason.

I run a "toned down" version of Dave's setup and am extremely happy with it. I sourced some ADR approved braided lines (will bang 'em on the car when my near new OEM lines wear some more) so the only thing I really need to try is the Performance Friction pads.

[djs325]

If you want PF pads in the near future, get in quick, as the Australian distributor is about to run out of stock (again), demand is increasing as the E30 Racing guys cotton on!

MillRat; I sold my spare brakes to one of the E30 guys; he's using DBA's Street Slotted Rotor (DBA679SL/SR) and PF 06 pads on the front; and OEM rotors and EBC Yellows (he had some spares left over) on the rear. He also has braided lines, rebuilt calipers, solid slide guides (front only), E32 BMC, but no proportioning valve (YET!).

Since the installation date, the car has done 9 days of track work:
-Haunted Hills BMWCCV day
-Winton race weekend (including practice day)
-Calder WRX sprint day
-Phillip Island WRX sprint day
-Phillip Island race weekend (including practice day)

Fronts showed little wear (1-2mm at most) on pads, rotors almost brand new; rear pads 1/2 worn, rear rotors rusty (not painted on the unswept surfaces like DBAs). So after the next Sandown round well be changing over to PF06 on the rear.

Report on brakes: "Why didn't you tell me about these before? So much better!"

Another satisfied customer. Now if I can just get DBA to get a 4000 Series rotor off the ground...

[MillRat]

If you want PF pads in the near future, get in quick, as the Australian distributor is about to run out of stock (again), demand is increasing as the E30 Racing guys cotton on!

Okay will do. We still probably have a year's worth left, but it doesn't hurt to have a spare set.

[N00b]

If you want PF pads in the near future, get in quick, as the Australian distributor is about to run out of stock (again), demand is increasing as the E30 Racing guys cotton on!

Okay will do. We still probably have a year's worth left, but it doesn't hurt to have a spare set.

How much are they over there?
I think they come in at around £65 here.

[djs325]

Normal retail is about AUD$165 inc GST; so at current exchange is about GBP 90; but if the exchange rate was regular, then it would be about GBP 70. We can also bring them in from BimmerWorld for US$120 a set, cheaper if in bulk lots. Shipping from US to Australia is cheaper than Europe/UK to Aus.

Just checked coordsportDOTcom's price list, they are £65.96 exc VAT for 0278.06 fronts, £64.55 for rears. So check them out! They do a lot of buys for the UK Lancer Evo boys.

[jonnygould]

Anyone had experience of the ATE Power Discs?

these are the kiddies:


Im thinking cheap here, they dont look all that but i can get these at trade cost...

[djs325]

The ATE Powerdiscs are reasonably good. Just that the slots are not very effective (they fill up with dust fairly quickly). But I didn't see or hear of any failures linked to E30 Racing, so that is good news.

[AlpineAde]

I like the Powerdiscs. I'm running them at the moment but will try a different rotor when the time comes...just to see the difference. For a road/track rotor the ATE is OK.