Killarney Track Car, Video to watch on you tube, PG 5

All the info you need to race E30's

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tim_haynes
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Post Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:08 am

Thought i would put some more pictures up, Recently i have fitted GAZ gold coilovers and full arb's, thanks to jimmy at RPM.

Car is now running about 380 bhp with a rotrex c30 -94 charger and gas and ported head with mild cam fitted. Running on go-tech pro, Also has wilwood 4 pots.

Currently fitting a button clutch now, was wondering if anyone could help me with a quick shift, is it possible to make one or modify mine while the box is out?

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Last edited by tim_haynes on Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:38 pm, edited 12 times in total.
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AlpineAde
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Post Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:14 am

Beautiful looking car, Tim. :thumb:

When you say "quick shift", do you mean "short shifter"? If so, go the UUC EVO 3 unit, or their race version. Absolutely superb quality.
tim_haynes
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Post Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:30 am

Thanks mate, ill have a look now, i do mean a short shift yes,
ivqii
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Post Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:56 am

Hi Tim

Nice to see Killarny again and Table Mountain in background

What sort of machinery are you racing against?
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tim_haynes
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Post Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:57 pm

Ha ha yea its a nice track, long straights!

We racing against all sorts, other e30's, althought most have got throttle bodies. Lots of mark 1 golfs here, few v8 things, classic cars.

But im mainly doing open track days, so then theres lots of different cars, porsches, hot-hatches etc...

anyone made there own short shifter on here? just here in cape town its difficult to get parts in, took me weeks to get supercharger and suspension.
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Post Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:09 pm

Any engine bay shots :)?
tim_haynes
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Post Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:39 am

will post some up as soon as i can. :)
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Post Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:30 pm

Pics of that diffuser from underneath please - have you made a flat floor to go with it?
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Post Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:37 pm

tim_haynes wrote:anyone made there own short shifter on here? just here in cape town its difficult to get parts in, took me weeks to get supercharger and suspension.
Essentially it's just lengthening the distance on the gearstick itself betwen the chassis pivot and gear box link pivot.

It's cheap and easy to get the parts for this here so noone I know of has done their own.
I said:

Can anyone suggest how to test if the boot lights are staying on with the boot shut?

e30topless said:

lock the wife in there
tim_haynes
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Post Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:39 am

Essentially it's just lengthening the distance on the gearstick itself betwen the chassis pivot and gear box link pivot.

It's cheap and easy to get the parts for this here so noone I know of has done their own.
Thanks, i managed to get the parts from dealer here, i fitted z3 shift and new bushes and bearing, loads better, will put some more pics up soon...
tim_haynes
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Post Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:06 am

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just testing i phone pic, looks rubbish, will put engine shots up later
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Post Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:50 am

Bump;

This car is awesome, I really dig the paint scheme and the style of the car. Very professional!!

Any engine, interior and and under car pictures?
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Cheers,
Michael.
tim_haynes
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Post Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:20 am

thanks mate, really appreciate that, been doing quite a bit of work on it lately so i will put some more pics up as soon as i can.

cheeers
GeoffBob
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Post Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:05 am

MillRat wrote:This car is awesome, I really dig the paint scheme and the style of the car. Very professional!!
Agreed, truly stunning car. :thumb:
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tim_haynes
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Post Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:07 pm

just a few more pics as promised, will post some up of diffuser and that when im finished working under there.
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Post Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:21 pm

looks very well done.

out of interest, what did you use to pain the interior?
tim_haynes
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Post Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:40 pm

thanks,

just 2k ice white automotive paint
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Post Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:55 pm

cheers, thought that would be the answer! just don't have any respirator equipment :(

p.s. is there any chance you could get a pic of where the front triangulation brace comes through the bulkhead? cheers
MillRat
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Post Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:30 pm

Again, such a great looking car!

With what looks like all the panels being fibreglass, what is the total weight of this car? I got mine down to about 1000kg (before the cage), but yours must be less than that.

I would to see some video of your car on track one day. No doubt it goes like a storm and sound the biz to.
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Cheers,
Michael.
tim_haynes
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Post Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:34 am

thanks michael,

actually just bumpers and side skirts are fibreglass, i do have moulds for bonnet and boot, but i have stripped all the reinforcing metal of boot and bonnet to make them very light, im pretty sure car weighs about 950-1000 kg with no driver, so not amazingly light. luckily i have enough power.

i would love to take video also and more pics at the track. will post up soon.
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tim_haynes
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Post Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:43 pm

Just a quick post to say that i have got a load of good pics i am going to post up of a bmw track day i went to not so long back, i will post them as soon as the photographer emails them to me!

Geoff, some info for you so you can do up a dyno graph before i post mine up with c30-94,
cyl head has been ported and gas flowed, swirled inlets, 3 angle valve seat etc... there is a mild cam fitted, unfortanetly i cant find the details on it, but im pretty sure it was 272 degree.
350cc injectors fitted and bosch in line out of tank fuel pump running on go-tech pro ecu.
The Block is still standard, pistons etc... still 2.5. Compression is also standard except for oversized standard head gasket.
Currently running 0.8-0.9 bar boost with 500mm by 350mm intercooler.

Anything else you need?

tim :D
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tim_haynes
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Post Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:54 pm

sorry forgot to say, 90mm pulley on the charger, 140mm pulley on engine.
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GeoffBob
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Post Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:05 pm

Tim, stock CR on your M20B25 was 8.8:1. Any idea how much thicker you new gasket is compared to the standard so that I can work out your new CR?

Also, have a look at my thread here where I did the Rotrex calculations for Appletree. Start out by having a read through that and you'll understand why the C30-84 is ideal for Appletree's and Rix313's 1800cc M42B18 motors, and why the C30-94 is better suited to your 2500cc M20B25 motor. As soon as I get the chance I'll do some similar calculations for your engine, and we'll then see if their isn't somewhere where we can pinch a bit of extra power for you.

Also, have a look at Appletrees thread here. Somewhere in there you'll find a pic ot two of the BOV that he uses.

Regards
Geoff
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tim_haynes
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Post Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:24 pm

i think the gasket was 0.3mm thicker, not much really!, but the head was also skimmed when i had it done, but they said they took nothing off really.

thanks geoff, taking a look now.
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Post Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:33 pm

Tim, Refresh my memory please, you said that your crank pulley is 140mm and your Rotrex pulley is 90mm ??

Ta.
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GeoffBob
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Post Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:30 pm

Right, have made a start on your Rotrex calculations Tim. Have assumed that you have a 90mm pulley on the Rotrex (at least I think that's what you said). And I'm pretty sure you said you had a 140mm pulley on the engine, well that's what most others use anyway.

Using these values I was able to plot the following on the Rotrex compressor flow map:

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Its the red-line that you are interested in. So far I can tell you that you are to the right of the surge line, and thus you definitely have no problems with surge. You also come fairly close to the island of maximum efficiency, which is good. Your engine RPM are the Rotrex speed divided by 9.49 (the Rotrex gear ratio), divided by 1.55 again (due to the pulley ratio). In other words, your engine would have to rev to 6774 rpm to take the rotrex to its 100,000 rpm speed limit. I would therefore say that your pulley sizes are well chosen. I'll post more when I get around to doing some power and torque calculations for you. Then we'll see how the calculations compare to your dyno graph :D .
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tim_haynes
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Post Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:54 am

geoff you are right, charger pulley is 90mm and crank pulley is 140mm.

Well looks like i have it set up just about right, thanks for doing that, very interesting.
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GeoffBob
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Post Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:10 pm

Tim, sorry, possibly I should have mentioned what this graph actually tells you. The Y-Axis is the compressor pressure ratio. That is to say, the pressure P2 (measured at the compressor outlet) divided by the pressure P1 (measured at the compressor inlet). Since you are operating at sea level, I have set P1 to 100kPA, which is typical for down in the Cape.

In other words, you can read off your boost pressure from the Y-axis. For example, at a pressure ratio of 1.5 you must be making 0.5 bar of boost if atmospheric pressure is 1 bar.

The X-Axis is the mass of air that is being inducted into your 2500cc engine. The relationship between the X and Y axis is indicated by the red line, which I calculated.

And since we know the relationship between the Rotrex speed (indicated on the graph as the bold black lines) and the engine speed (due to the pulley and Rotrex gear ratio) we can say something like: At a Rotrex speed of 70,000 rpm, which corresponds to an engine speed of 4742 rpm, your M20B25 will induct (by virtue of the Rotrex) roughly 0.18kg/s of air at a pressure ratio of roughly 1.7 (ie, at 0.7 bar boost). Have a close look at the graph and confirm for yourself that you can see this.

Now, if we know how much air your engine is inducting at any given engine rpm, we can calculate roughly (assuming optimal ignition timing angle and ideal fueling) how much torque and power your engine will output as a function of RPM.

What bothers me, however, is that just from looking at the above graph I can already tell you that your Rotrex is touching on 1.3 bar of boost at 6100 rpm engine speed (90000 rpm Rotrex speed). This is 0.4 bar in excess of the 0.9bar boost you stated. However if you are indeed running at up to 1.3 bar boost, your M20B25 engine will indeed induct, as per the above graph, roughly 0.27 kg/s or air, which, at an AFR of 13:1, will correspond to roughly 249kW or 334hp total engine power output. Please note that I say total power, since the power available at the flywheel is this figure less what it takes to drive the Rotrex, alternator and the water-pump. If you take your engine all the way up to 6774 rpm (at the Rotrex limit) your engine will flow roughly 0.32 kg/s of air at a pressure ratio of 2.6 (1.6 bar boost). That should correspond to roughly 295 kW or 396hp total power. Now while that may sound like an awful lot of power, just wait and see how that figure drops when you take into account how much power the Rotrex is consuming in order to pump the air that makes that power possible!

Tim, I am not sure where your boost gauge is connected or how high it can read, but I think you will find that my calculations are reasonably accurate (although I did have to guess at you engines VE given that you have changed the cam). If you are running to these sort of pressures it would explain why you are literally "blowing" your spark out. On the other hand, if we solve your ignition problem you may well find yourself popping your engine. A figure of 1.6 bar boost on an 8.8:1 CR does concern me. Does your Gotech-Pro include a knock sensor?

Something else to note is that these calculations are performed assuming the throttle is wide-open. At part throttle the mass of air inducted into the engine (and hence power) will be very different.
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Post Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:02 pm

Having just done the calculations I can now tell you that at an engine speed of 6774 rpm (100,000 rpm Rotrex speed) the air coming out of the Rotrex (at a pressure ratio of 2.6) will be at a temperature of approximately 114'C and will tax the engine to the tune of 30 kW or roughly 40 hp! At this engine speed it is thus unlikely that you will see any more than 265 kW (355 hp) available at the flywheel, assuming that the engine can in fact run at these rpm (by virtue of the cam and the Rotrex) and that your intercooler is ~85% efficient, as I have assumed. Never underestimate the fact that it is your intercooler which effectively controls the temperature (and ultimately the density) of the air inducted into your engine!

From the above graph, at an engine speed of 5419 rpm (80,000 rpm Rotrex speed) your engine will induct roughly 0.225 kg/s of air at a pressure ratio of 1.95. This will produce roughly 207.7 kW (278 hp) total power, at a cost of roughly 14.1 kW (19 hp) to the Rotrex, leaving roughly 193.6 kW (259.6 hp) at the flywheel to play with.

Similarly, at an engine speed of 6100 rpm (90,000 rpm Rotrex speed) your engine will induct roughly 0.27 kg/s of air at a pressure ratio of 2.2. This will produce roughly 249 kW (334 hp) total power, at a cost of roughly 20.4 kW (27.3 hp) to the Rotrex, leaving roughly 228.6 kW (306.5 hp) at the flywheel to play with.

Unfortunately, without improved knowledge of your cam and intercooler it is impossible for me to make a more accurate assessment of your engine. I'd be interested now to see how these values compare to your dynograph.

And lastly, if you want to convert any of my calculated power values (in kW) to torque values (in Nm) then simply divide the calculated power value by (2 x pi x N/60) where pi~3.142 and N is the engine speed in rpm. For example:

193.6 kW @ 5419 rpm corresponds to a torque of 341.2 Nm,
228.6 kW @ 6100 rpm corresponds to a torque of 357.8 Nm, and
265 kW @ 6774 rpm corresponds to a torque of 373.6 Nm.
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tim_haynes
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Post Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:57 am

Geoff,

to be honest all of this is a bit much for me, little to complex for my feeble mind! Never been good at maths.

But the boost being that high does worry me a bit although the engine is proving to be quite reliable with the charger on so far. My boost gauge is measuring from the vacum pipe on the inlet manifold at the back above the tappet cover. The guage reads up to 2 bar. Maybe the air is coming into the throttle body at 1.3-1.6 bar and then is dispersed through the 6 shaped pipes in the manifold giving me a Reading of 0.9 on the boost guage as the air is rushing in engine before it reaches guage. make sense or sound stupid?

Also wanted to ask you if you think my intercooler is to small? It's a alluminium one, 350-400mm high by 450-500mm long I think.

Managed to get a better bov so hopefully can set this up. By the way your power figures are very close to what the Dyno said to, will post it up soon as it's also flywheel power graph.

Thanks for doing all this, will understand Better one day he he.

Cheers, tim
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tim_haynes
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Post Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:57 am

Geoff,

to be honest all of this is a bit much for me, little to complex for my feeble mind! Never been good at maths.

But the boost being that high does worry me a bit although the engine is proving to be quite reliable with the charger on so far. My boost gauge is measuring from the vacum pipe on the inlet manifold at the back above the tappet cover. The guage reads up to 2 bar. Maybe the air is coming into the throttle body at 1.3-1.6 bar and then is dispersed through the 6 shaped pipes in the manifold giving me a Reading of 0.9 on the boost guage as the air is rushing in engine before it reaches guage. make sense or sound stupid?

Also wanted to ask you if you think my intercooler is to small? It's a alluminium one, 350-400mm high by 450-500mm long I think.

Managed to get a better bov so hopefully can set this up. By the way your power figures are very close to what the Dyno said to, will post it up soon as it's also flywheel power graph.

Thanks for doing all this, will understand Better one day he he.

Cheers, tim
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tim_haynes
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Post Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:36 am

Geoff

been looking closer at graph and i now understand it better,

can see what you mean about boost being higher than what m gauge says, the gauge now is coming of the vacuum hose that goes to the fuel pressure regulator.

the go-tech does have knock sensor to.
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Post Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:19 am

Tim, if my calculated power values are close to your dyno'd values then my pressure values would have to be reasonably close to actual. I'd check that gauge if I were you, something doesn't sound right to me. From the above graph you'll be hitting 0.9 bar boost (1.9 bar pressure ratio) as early as a Rotrex speed of around 79,000 rpm. With your pulleys that corresponds to an engine speed of roughly 5350 rpm. If you aren't in the habit of taking your engine over roughly 5500 rpm (taking into account the small pressure drop over your intercooler) then I doubt you will see your boost rise to beyond 0.9 bar. At this point you are flowing roughly 0.22 kg/s of air (assuming WOT) into the engine, which will deliver roughly 250 hp to the flywheel.

My suggestion is this: Take the car to a flat open stretch of road (an airfield would be ideal). Put your foot down hard (I trust that your pedal is setup so that a flat pedal gives you a wide open throttle). Take her up through the gears while watching your boost gauge. I'd like to hear from you what your boost does with the engine speed above 5500 rpm. If you can't get above 5500rpm then it’s likely because of your ignition problem, meaning that, above a certain pressure your current ignition system can't spark your plugs, and hence you have (purely by accident) built a pressure dependent rev limiter into your engine. Nonetheless, try this test, and let me know what happens. And remember, you have to do this test at WOT (foot flat).

I can assure that, if you are able to take her up to just on 7000 rpm at WOT, you will be reading just over 1.5 bar boost on your gauge! And remember, keep your ears pricked for the sounds of detonation. If you start to hear detonation, back off the throttle immediately and abandon the test, although your Gotech will likely limit your rpm if it picks up on severe detonation anyway by adjusting your ignition timing all the way to the point where you have insufficient torque to bring your revs up any higher. If your ignition problem rears its head then please, note at what rpm this occurred (at WOT).

'Am very interested to see your dynograph!
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Post Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:44 am

Tim, the aluminium enclosure for your CDI just arrived, here's a sneak preview. Unfortunately I will have to redesign the PCB to fit, but that is not a major issue.

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The curvature of the enclosure is real BTW, it's quite an attractive looking box, :cool:
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tim_haynes
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Post Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:10 pm

Geoff,

enclosure looks great! Really looking forward to finished product. Put your sticker on it ha ha, geoff's cdi!

The back straight at killarney has been a good test before as I'm flat out in 3rd and 4th gears, I have done two previous track days where I have revved right up to 6500rpm, actually hitting the go-tech limiter in 3rd, and it's never detonated or had ignition problems, and boost gauge was only reaching 0.9bar.

The last track day I went on is where I was experiencing problems, the only change to car was taking Bov of. Maybe this is the problem or I have damaged the charger, but i felt problem on very first session so can't be charger. but it did feel like ignition problem, like a miss at high revs or lack of fuel.
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