e30 Brakes question.

[N00b]

Could a mod move this to a more appropriate sub-forum, if there is one?

Anyway, hi there, long time lurker.....first time poster here with what is probably going to be the first in a long line of questions, so please be patient with me.

I'm going to be buying an e30 before xmas, and I want to gather as much relevant info as I can so I have everything to hand when starting the work.

Basically, the car will be used for fast road/occasional track use (the 'ring next year for example) and I'd like to know if I can raid the BMW parts bin for a brake upgrade?
Going upto 16 or 17 inch rims isn't a problem if needed to accomodate larger discs/calipers, so are there any other models with bigger anchors that will fit the e30 as either a straight swap?

Anyway, thanks in advance and any advice/help is really appreciated.

[AlpineAde]

Standard brakes are not that bad if you are prepared to sort them. New rotors (try a slotted rotor like the ATE Powerdisc in the front), fast road or track oriented pads, braided lines, quality fluid (ATE "Blue" is good or you could go for Motul or AP Racing fluids), get the calipers inspected and rebuilt if necessary. Raiding the BMW parts bin allows you to grab the substantially larger bore E32 7 series brake master cylinder if you like a firm pedal (I do and it's a nice upgrade).

My point is that you don't necessarily have to go for BMW parts bin BBK or even an aftermarket one. A well sorted and tweaked standard setup will work fine, even with a car making substantially more power than stock.

[N00b]

Standard brakes are not that bad if you are prepared to sort them. New rotors (try a slotted rotor like the ATE Powerdisc in the front), fast road or track oriented pads, braided lines, quality fluid (ATE "Blue" is good or you could go for Motul or AP Racing fluids), get the calipers inspected and rebuilt if necessary. Raiding the BMW parts bin allows you to grab the substantially larger bore E32 7 series brake master cylinder if you like a firm pedal (I do and it's a nice upgrade).

My point is that you don't necessarily have to go for BMW parts bin BBK or even an aftermarket one. A well sorted and tweaked standard setup will work fine, even with a car making substantially more power than stock.

It sounds like the standard fitment has a bit of headroom designed into them, going by your post. The thing is, I've set myself (by virtue of a big mouth and not thinking before I speak) a bit of a challenge, and the whole project needs to be done on a rather small budget. I'd have aeroquipped the brakes as standard and used decent fluid, but I assumed that both disc and caliper would need to be changed. If I can get away with overhauling the calipers and fitting new discs (or rotors if you prefer) coupled with fast road pads then this should keep costs down.
Thanks, I appreciate the help.

[juniorGT]

at the moment on my 318is, im running standard discs up front, Mintex extreme pads all round, and super blue racing fluid. feels brilliant more than capable, nice firm pedal, plenty of bite, and i have no ABS.

next on the list (when i have money) would be Zimmermen grooved discs and just some braided lines.
iv got brands indy on the 1st dec, so im going to see who she holds up

[N00b]

at the moment on my 318is, im running standard discs up front, Mintex extreme pads all round, and super blue racing fluid. feels brilliant more than capable, nice firm pedal, plenty of bite, and i have no ABS.

next on the list (when i have money) would be Zimmermen grooved discs and just some braided lines.
iv got brands indy on the 1st dec, so im going to see who she holds up

What about fade, mate?
I will also be taking the car across stelvio next year, and if you know the area you'll know it's the last place you want to have brake failure.

[juniorGT]

not experienced any fade as of yet, wil find out when i get her on brands!

[oldbimmer]

Standard brakes are not that bad if you are prepared to sort them. stock.

I would agree - For the last 2 years I have been using a standard setup with ATE powerdiscs, ATE super blue fluid and EBC Yellowstuff pads. The car is purely for track use and has never put a foot wrong.

The discs, pads and fluid are all reasonably priced too, which is another added bouns.

[N00b]

Standard brakes are not that bad if you are prepared to sort them. stock.

I would agree - For the last 2 years I have been using a standard setup with ATE powerdiscs, ATE super blue fluid and EBC Yellowstuff pads. The car is purely for track use and has never put a foot wrong.

The discs, pads and fluid are all reasonably priced too, which is another added bouns.

Given that through my own fault I've got a VERY tight budget to keep to, you guys are definitely making me feel relieved. Initially, I thought the best course of action would be to scour the breakers/auto dismantlers yards for a bigger brake setup from one of BMW's larger vehicles.....but it seems that the concensus is that simply buying new aftermarket discs/pads/fluid will be enough. Phew.

Just FYI, my challenge is to spend no more than £1000 (including the purchase price of the car) and negotiate the stelvio pass AND run a BTG time of the 'ring in under 11 minutes.

I think this time I've bitten off more than I can chew, although as my friends will torture me if I fail I WILL try my damndest.

[BadDave]

Given that through my own fault I've got a VERY tight budget to keep to, you guys are definitely making me feel relieved. Initially, I thought the best course of action would be to scour the breakers/auto dismantlers yards for a bigger brake setup from one of BMW's larger vehicles.....but it seems that the concensus is that simply buying new aftermarket discs/pads/fluid will be enough. Phew.

Just FYI, my challenge is to spend no more than £1000 (including the purchase price of the car) and negotiate the stelvio pass AND run a BTG time of the 'ring in under 11 minutes.

I think this time I've bitten off more than I can chew, although as my friends will torture me if I fail I WILL try my damndest.

There is a way round the budget constraint

"Borrowing" decent parts for the trip wouldn't cut into the budget
You just have to remove them/replace worn parts and get them back to there rightfull owner

[AlpineAde]

Standard brakes are not that bad if you are prepared to sort them. stock.

I would agree - For the last 2 years I have been using a standard setup with ATE powerdiscs, ATE super blue fluid and EBC Yellowstuff pads. The car is purely for track use and has never put a foot wrong.

The discs, pads and fluid are all reasonably priced too, which is another added bouns.

Pretty much what I run, except I use AP Racing 600 fluid and Greenstuff on the rear. I also run the E32 BMC mod.

The setup has performed flawlessly.

[hoshy]

I hear that the front and rear bore on the e32 mc are the same size which causes the rear to have too much bias. Did you fit an adjuster, or have any comment on this?

Where do you guys find your ATE discs for the e30 - I can't find them anywhere!.

Sorry to go OT but have any of you yellowstuff users also used DS2500s, these are what I've used in the past and wondered how they compare to the yellowstuff.

[Speedtouch]

I bought a pair of ATE rear discs from ECP yesterday for £45 (same make as the calipers on my car), though Brembo and Zimmerman were available from GSF for similar money.

[hoshy]

Hmm - are they the grooved ATE disks or just standard ones?

[Speedtouch]

Standard ones, though grooved (the atomic symbol pattern type) were advertised.

[hoshy]

Cheers - sorry to be a pain - what care did you select cos I can't see the ate grooved ones on ecp

[Cook318IS]

would be Zimmermen grooved discs

I wouldnt buy them i looked at buying them when i was due new brakes on my iS... heres my post and the pictures
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... highlight=

[Speedtouch]

Cheers - sorry to be a pain - what care did you select cos I can't see the ate grooved ones on ecp

I just went down to my local Canterbury branch and they had them advertised on the wall.

[N00b]

would be Zimmermen grooved discs

I wouldnt buy them i looked at buying them when i was due new brakes on my iS... heres my post and the pictures
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... highlight=

^^^
Dear god!
How much mileage had you put on those before THAT happened?

[Cook318IS]

wasnt my brakes. UweM3 who posted it in the link i posted it up went through two sets. He didnt mention a mileage.

[N00b]

wasnt my brakes. UweM3 who posted it in the link i posted it up went through two sets. He didnt mention a mileage.

It doesn't look like there's much of a "lip" on the disc, so unless he'd given them an extreme amount of abuse I'd be looking at my money back.

Just looking at cracked discs scares the hell out of me, especially when you think what might have happened.

[BadDave]

Would be better opting for grooved disks TBH

There's a lot less stress points with the grooved ones compared to x-drilled ones

[hoshy]

Well - in the end I just bought some mintex extreme pads and black diamond grooved disks. I'm about to get an e32 m/c too. For the rear - I've just bought a sub-frame with new disk, and oem pads. Will invest in a bias adjuster too just in case... Have heard conflicting reports about bias problems on the e32 m/c.

[BadDave]

Ash

I'd go for the knob type of bias valve over the lever type ones mate

They'll give you more adjustability

[hoshy]

I'm starting to second guess the choice of the e32 m/c now. I don't want the pedal so firm (and high) that I can't heel toe as well or loose too much modulation. I think I'm going to try things with just the new braided hoses, disks, pads and near new rear set-up all bleed and done nicely first. Then, if I think the pedal needs to be stiffer I'll look again at the m/c swap.

I think some more open wheels rather than the quite closed bbs jobbies might help on the fade situation too. (Plus I think refitting the brake ducts that fell out and got run over on the last track day might be useful too )

[BadDave]

A better M/C option may be the E30 M3 one then, as it's only a 23.??mm bore instead of 25.something for the E32 one

[hoshy]

Yeap - I know dan-318iS did this mod. But that would require some messing about with fitments. Again, I'll decided once I've got the first stage done. I've never driven an e30 with braided lines and all new disks and pads. It might not be so bad. I don't mind a bit of long travel etc. Having said that - my e36 brakes were really nice to use, so a set-up like that would be nice.

[AlpineAde]

I'm starting to second guess the choice of the e32 m/c now. I don't want the pedal so firm (and high) that I can't heel toe as well or loose too much modulation. I think I'm going to try things with just the new braided hoses, disks, pads and near new rear set-up all bleed and done nicely first. Then, if I think the pedal needs to be stiffer I'll look again at the m/c swap.

I think some more open wheels rather than the quite closed bbs jobbies might help on the fade situation too. (Plus I think refitting the brake ducts that fell out and got run over on the last track day might be useful too )

I actually find heel and toeing easier with the E32 mod. You want the pedal when fully depressed to be near on the same plane as the throttle. Without the mod I found I was having to contort my foot because the brake pedal had far too much travel in standard trim.

As for rear brake bias problems. There are none. Yes, theoretically, it will move the bias slightly rearwards (which can be a good thing) but you will still lock the fronts way before you get even a hint of locking rear brakes. I have actually never locked the rears on the car.

Your plan sounds good. Do everything and see how it feels. Then decide on pedal feel. Primarily, this is a pedal feel mod and really should be done only if you like a firm pedal.

[hoshy]

Cheers Ade. It's good to hear from somebody who has done the mod and who does use heel and toe. I presume you did this on standard callipers?

Do you happen to know if it's any e32 m/c or specifically the 750i?

[Theo]

Likewise, no issues heel & toeing in my car. The brake pedal height is adjustable by the way...

[hoshy]

Cheers Theo - I didn't realise you could adjust the pedal height. I knew there was some adjustment on the bar but thought it was a "right or wrong" situation.

[northloop]

I use EBC discs and yellows, braided lines, decent fluid and an AP lever bias valve.

I have done a number of track days this year and everything has held up well. The pads will last for this coming weekend at Angelsey and maybe more. Not bad considering the track miles they have done so far.

Over the winter she will have the fluid bled and new pads. More of the same will be the order of the day.

1060kgs and never had brake fade.

[AlpineAde]

Cheers Ade. It's good to hear from somebody who has done the mod and who does use heel and toe. I presume you did this on standard callipers?

Do you happen to know if it's any e32 m/c or specifically the 750i?

Standard calipers. And made sure they were in good nick. You can get everything you need to rebuild 'em if you need to, so that they are nice and fresh.

If I recall correctly the plastic bag said E32 735i. But it is the same 25.4mm BMC that was used in the 750i as far as I know.

[hoshy]

Cool. I haven't really thought about rebuilding the callipers. How much work is that. What are symptoms of them requiring a rebuild?

[djs325]

I use E32 MC on my E30 Racing Car, Goodridge Lines (6 line kit), Front Brake Ducts, Standard Calipers (fresh), EBC Pads (Yellow/Blue (Race) or Green (Street) Front, Green Rear) and slotted rotors on the front (Ate Powerdisc, or local slotted options).

So far this system has been flawless for racing with - we have several cars lapping within 1 second of each other on the track without brake problems. No problem with 'increased' rear brake pressure

However, I recently upgraded my brakes with a set of solid brake caliper guides from BimmerWorld - http://www.bimmerworld.com/ - and am adding a Tilton Brake Proportioning Valve. The important thing with the Tilton Valve is to remove the rear brake line max pressure valve located on the rear brake line, either under the booster or on the firewall. This valve limits the pressure to the rear brakes, kind of like single channel ABS. By replacing with a Tilton valve, you can vary the amount of rear brake pressure proportionately to the front brake pressure. Check them out - http://www.tiltonracing.com/ - and have a good time on standard brakes.

P.S. I'm trying to get a proper motorsport disc manufactured in standard E30 fitment - check out my forum thread

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=114136

[Theo]

The important thing with the Tilton Valve is to remove the rear brake line max pressure valve located on the rear brake line, either under the booster or on the firewall. This valve limits the pressure to the rear brakes, kind of like single channel ABS. By replacing with a Tilton valve, you can vary the amount of rear brake pressure proportionately to the front brake pressure

I was wondering about this, surely if you are fitting an adjustable valve you are doing so to allow yourself to reduce the rear braking pressure you currently have. So by removing the standard reducing valve you automatically have a higher braking force at the rear thus limiting the number of settings you can realistically use on the adjustable bias valve. On my adjustable lever there are 7 settings from 0 to 57% reduction, without the standard valve in place the first two or three settings will probably still be giving me more rear bias than usual, so it's only there last 4 or 5 settings which are of any use.