Track suspension advice

Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:38 pm

UweM3 wrote:What works for one driver doesn't mean it works for all drivers IMHO. Driving styles is a big part of suspension setup. Somebody who is a hard late braker will prefer a different setting compared to the fast at apex driver etc.

Absolutely bang on there Uwe - I spent several years of my life trying to understand how 2 drivers could be seconds apart in identical cars at racetracks - driving style is one of the single biggest factors in any set up.

Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:04 pm

Well i was hoping things would be a little clearer after this thread was started, but i'm still totally baffled

I've done a lot of searching about e30 suspension and really dont know what way to go with the car. I wont be using it to compete, just fun track days with the occasional road use. I've seen some setups that come attached to the struts, some showing pics where they have to be welded, i dont know if the rear of the car is strong enough to handle a true coilover setup, or does it require strengthening, or should i stick with the damper and spring setup at the rear.

Its a topic that does confuse me and i really dont want to waste money on parts that wont be up to the job. Everyone seems to do things very differently with e30 suspension, which is possibly a good thing, but not knowing the cars well enough, i do feel quite lost with this subject

Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:47 pm

Well that was entertaining!

still not really much further forward but its an interesting read.i guess opinions are like arse holes everyone has one. Cheers for some of the replies.

Maybe ill stick some gaz on all round and post on threads like this. Please carry on gents ...

Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:59 pm

Stonkin wrote:Well i was hoping things would be a little clearer after this thread was started, but i'm still totally baffled

I've done a lot of searching about e30 suspension and really dont know what way to go with the car. I wont be using it to compete, just fun track days with the occasional road use. I've seen some setups that come attached to the struts, some showing pics where they have to be welded, i dont know if the rear of the car is strong enough to handle a true coilover setup, or does it require strengthening, or should i stick with the damper and spring setup at the rear.

Its a topic that does confuse me and i really dont want to waste money on parts that wont be up to the job. Everyone seems to do things very differently with e30 suspension, which is possibly a good thing, but not knowing the cars well enough, i do feel quite lost with this subject

It all comes down to budget, personally I have not seen a kit better over all value than the BC racing offering. Gaz is very old technology, not even mono inverted, the rear is way too heavy for the E30 delicate rear end.

Any decent fabricator will be able to weld the front tubes on, rear can handle the load of a full coilover an so can the trailing arm pickup.

Andrew

Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:48 pm

Cheers Andrew. Am i right in thinking the BC kit doesnt convert the rear to coilovers but retains the damper and spring setup?

They certainly seem well priced and lower than i was budgeting to pay for suspension, and they also come with the adjustable front top camber mounts. If i'm correct about the rear setup of the BC's, does that mean you dont need to buy the uprated rose jointed rear top mounts, or is that still advisable?

I come from knowing a reasonable amount about the mk4 Supras, having had a couple and being on their forum a long time. Over there BC's are regarded fairly well as a reasonably priced and reasonable quality for the money, although some of the guys have had issues with them creaking.

Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:59 pm

Stonkin wrote:Cheers Andrew. Am i right in thinking the BC kit doesnt convert the rear to coilovers but retains the damper and spring setup?

They certainly seem well priced and lower than i was budgeting to pay for suspension, and they also come with the adjustable front top camber mounts. If i'm correct about the rear setup of the BC's, does that mean you dont need to buy the uprated rose jointed rear top mounts, or is that still advisable?

I come from knowing a reasonable amount about the mk4 Supras, having had a couple and being on their forum a long time. Over there BC's are regarded fairly well as a reasonably priced and reasonable quality for the money, although some of the guys have had issues with them creaking.

i have the bcs and it would appear to me that the design of the rear allows it to be used as a true rear coilover rather easily. However, out of the box it is supplied with an inboard spring so yes, predate damper and spring.
No issues with mine creaking

Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:16 pm

Thanks for the reply mate

Appreciate everyones comments here on something i would like to get right. I'm sure there are better products out there, there always is, for a price, just want something i will be happy with

Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:04 am

don't go BC. they are not great quality and really don't last well

I have had a few mates with E30 and E36s that they have used at the ring and track days....with not great feedback.

if you are budget constrained then I would go Gaz.

the new Gold Pro stuff is properly Nickel plated and well made. you can agree the spring rates you want with them and they are fully adjustable.

its a full coilover conversion too so ideal for track work. they do a really good fully adjustable camber plate solution for front and rears too so its a nice and solid set up with adjustments.

I know they are not top end like KW or Intrax or AST but they are half the price or third at times.

I know the bloke at Gaz if you want some contacts.

see my old track car build thread: http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... sc&start=0

I done a full season with Spa, the ring, brands, cadwell, goodwood and many more and they still looked like new when I sold it.

Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:55 am

is the car a pure track car? or road and track.

in my view a good budget starting point would be 400lb front springs,
thicker front ARB, the whiteline one is reasonably priced, get some eccentric bushes on the front arms, to give more caster (gives you a lot of the advantage of increasing neg camber without the drawbacks)

forget all about the rear roll bar, but get a decent diff in it, either a gripper or get a std lsd uprated with more plates.

Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Diff has to be standard for the series I want to compete in (PBMW). It will only go to circuits - cheers for advice.

See http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=204866

Cheers for the tips!

Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:22 am

milescook wrote:Diff has to be standard for the series I want to compete in (PBMW). It will only go to circuits - cheers for advice.

See http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=204866

Cheers for the tips!

For PBMW most of the rigidity will come from the cage, full welded out to the turrets front and rear if you can, if not and your budget only alows for a bolt in go for a multi point, not just a basic 6 point if you can avoid it.

Front ARB is standard, no rear arb. Dont bother with a rear strut brace, maybe.. maybe consider a front one but personally with a decent cage I wouldnt.

GAZ or AST dampers, E30 M3 front control arm bushes, then choose poly or new standard for the rest. Check the small print if you go poly as not everything can be upgraded. Last time I looked the diff bush for instance had to be OEM, but may have changed now.

Front and rear top mounts need replacing. Again from memory rears cant be adjustable so if you go GAZ etc get the rose jointed ones. Fronts camber adjustment is a must, rears are not adjustable so make sure your rear beam / control arms are straight and not bent in a bad way before you take the time to re furb.

Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:37 pm

Black_Potato wrote:
milescook wrote:Diff has to be standard for the series I want to compete in (PBMW). It will only go to circuits - cheers for advice.

See http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=204866

Cheers for the tips!
For PBMW most of the rigidity will come from the cage, full welded out to the turrets front and rear if you can, if not and your budget only alows for a bolt in go for a multi point, not just a basic 6 point if you can avoid it.

Front ARB is standard, no rear arb. Dont bother with a rear strut brace, maybe.. maybe consider a front one but personally with a decent cage I wouldnt.

GAZ or AST dampers, E30 M3 front control arm bushes, then choose poly or new standard for the rest. Check the small print if you go poly as not everything can be upgraded. Last time I looked the diff bush for instance had to be OEM, but may have changed now.

Front and rear top mounts need replacing. Again from memory rears cant be adjustable so if you go GAZ etc get the rose jointed ones. Fronts camber adjustment is a must, rears are not adjustable so make sure your rear beam / control arms are straight and not bent in a bad way before you take the time to re furb.

if the bushes have to be OEM I would fill the voids up with windscreen mastic (if that's not prohibited as well)

Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:11 pm

Black_Potato wrote: For PBMW most of the rigidity will come from the cage, full welded out to the turrets front and rear if you can, if not and your budget only alows for a bolt in go for a multi point, not just a basic 6 point if you can avoid it.

He's got a dogs bollocks cage fitted, won't be having any issues there

Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:37 pm

Any pics of the cage

Is it fully custom built or a pre made weld in cage?

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:35 pm

It's in his build thread.

Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:54 pm

Just re-read all this... strewth!

Went with Gaz coilovers in the end. Will fit them this weekend fingers crossed, and report back...

Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:56 pm

So! I've bought these from a fellow zoner: (pics can be zoomed in)

I'm still learning what I need to know. I'm also finding conflicting advice on whether the rear struts can take coilovers, some advocate a rear strut to help take the load, (my cage fitter installed a bar between the struts), some say if I have the strut I can't have coilovers... all a bit of a mess

So what does the zone think? I've been advised to go with inboard springs but this will mean more expense so I might just stick with these to start.

Also, I'm now wondering do I need anything else not in the picture? The chap was trying to give me advice but it was so bloody cold I wanted to get back in the car!

Oh and if you read this cheers again

Also I have some specific questions now I've had a good look:

a) I assume the two bits for each rear are the metal sleeves that hold the bolt into the trailing arm?

b) The threads on the newer looking strut seem difficult to get the collars on by hand, where as on the other strut go on easy enough. Do I just need a c spanner and a bit of lubricant?

c) The front hubs - please tell me I don't have to take them off to get the brake backing plates on!

Cheers.

Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:30 pm

Ill see if I Can help.

The two alignment spacers, I think the small one goes over the rear top mount and the longer one goes on the bolt that secures the damper body to the trailing arm, you need the bottom of the damper to be as close to the disk as possible (this is true for the top too).

The new front strut looks like its has a slightly coarser thread, if they don't go on by hand then don't force them on.

Sadly yes, you will need to take those off, but thats not a bad thing, the slightly older hub looks like its come out of Petes passage and without grinding you wont get the disk sitting nice and square. I don't run the shields and there is little point for a track car so you dont need to worry about that.

If you need to get the hub nut off, im only round the corner I could pop over with the impact.

I run true rear coilovers (60NM) and a rear strut bar no issues so far, what problems have you heard of?

Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:38 pm

Both the spacers go in the rose joint at the bottom of the rear coilover, they push into the joint and the bolt goes through the whole lot. The shorter of the 2 goes between the rose joint and the damper mount on the trailing arm. The other goes on the other side of the rose joint and simply acts as a spacer.

You may also need offset rear top mounts to stop the spring fouling the body and the fuel tank breather pipe cover. I have seen the rear turret tops reamed out to make these fit but its not a nice solution

Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:15 pm

Thats what I thought, but working on a turd with Gas Golds over the W/E I couldnt see any inner spacer?

My rears have a spacer, but I wonder if the Golds are too wide and still foul and thats why there is not spacer above?

Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:22 am

They should be fitted just like your AST's

I guess leaving the spacer out may stop the spring fouling the body but it is far from ideal. Gaz now make the proper top mounts to sort this.

Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:15 am

I would never run them without both spacers as the ID of the spherical bearing is much larger than the cross section of the M12 bolt. TBH it was a bit stupid of me to recommend that, but in my defence I thought the longer spacer went all the way through the bearing and butted up against the arm.

The ones fitted to the car I was working on clearly have a different design or even a different ID bearing as the larger spacer doesn't seem to flare out at the end like the ones Miles has posted.

The turd at the W/E had the off set top mounts, but I think it still rubbed a little.

Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:33 am

Rear strut thing is an old wives tale and came about from people with hanging rotten shells breaking the struts. Yours is fine and with all the cage pick up points you'll never have problems.

I would be surprised if Gaz changed the spec of the casing threads, but if there is a part or batch number on the damper, give them a call and see if they can tell you what it should be or if it has changed. Just make sure the threads are clean and put a bit of wd40 on and see if that helps but as Andrew said dont force it.

Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:52 am

Interesting. Cheers chaps, will have a go this weekend.

Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:55 pm

Had a sneaky play this eve those small spacers are big enough to let the bolt through however the bigger ones are not.the bigger spacers are the meant for the top mounts? Will get some pics how ive test put one rear on.there are more spacers to come apparently ill find out what they are.

Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:44 pm

Right, think I'm getting somewhere!

Firstly got the collars on it was a bit stiff on the new shock, lots of WD40 and once I cleared a bit of thread it was fine.

The seller has got back to me, turns out he still has the bottom mounted bolt spacers for the trailing arm, so you were all mostly right

See the spacers I have, are apparently for the rear top mounts, so test fitting them I get this:

Those spacers slot into the rose joints. Thoughts? Honestly I haven't got a sodding clue what I'm doing...

Fun tho

Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:29 pm

Ok so the larger spacer went above the top mount and the smaller underneath. There were some similar looking sleeves i got later 2each side for the bottom of the struts. So the tears are done.

New problem fitting the fronts... I mullered the ball joint rubbers using a fork seperator i wish i knew what the types were and what to get.ok i thought as long ad it average to south Wales ill buy new control arms and the rod ends away.lost patience and eventually did one side.now the passenger side will not seperate Im at a complete wits end.

Have to get it back on the road this weekend d as Im moving i want even tighten up the top of the front starts as you need an Allen key through a socket to hold the strut and tighten....

Pretty fucked off now....anyone able to help or advise?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:33 pm

Sodding phone ducking useless... Yep.

Will give this a go

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... =balljoint

Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:55 am

When are you around? I could pop over and help quickly?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:16 am

That would be awesome cheers! Having another go this eve neighbour is lending me a bigger hammer when he gets back, if Im still stuck then the weekend in between packing.number os 07816 591758 where are you?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:22 am

Im not far from you at all (cambridge).

A bigger hammer wont solve your problem,you really need a ball joint separator and for the top mount an impact driver to tighten up the nut.

Let me know if you don't get anywhere this evening.

Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:27 am

Ok i have a fork but its not doing anything except destroy the rubber and send grease everywhere! Do you have a better seperator? Impact driver sounds ideal can pick you up from cambs whenever you're free or buy you a pack of beer for your trouble!

Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:39 pm

Right with my neighbors ball joint splitter which is a type with a bolt that you tighten, the thing came off in seconds.tried a hammer on the strut and all sorts but this is my new favourite method!

Will let you know about the impact driver it turns out alli need is a ring spanner of 25 mil that drops down onto the top mount.Im seeing if i can source one through the same chap.i owe himw lots of beer noww!

Pop up anyway if you fancy an inspection of how a track car is put together badly

Ill need new control arms so what are my options? I assume stick with lemforder and pay the premium? Are e36 arms the same etc?

Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:14 pm

Awesome cheers for the help Andrew!

In summary the top mount nut needed a bit of surgery and was getting stuck in the top mount hence even with an impact driver was spinning the strut. Everything tightened now and even though the tracking is a bit wonky the car as it stands - badly set up by me on safe settings - is a lot of fun! Dodgy tyres and rear coilovers make roundabouts hillarious with a stab of the throttle!

Next step is to get it to south Wales - i will need headphones for the journey as its fookin loud

in the cab. Then some setup and tyres, then some track time

Oh and Im getting an impact driver they are sexy tools

Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:40 am

No worries Miles, thanks for the beers

Glad its all fixed now, one less thing to worry about for the long drive to Wales.

Impacts are a must, I use mines for all manor of jobs, but I would say that the only ones which work are SnapOn or Milwaukee, but the SnapOn is much more powerful in the real world.

You can pick up a nice second hand SnapOn 1/2" on ebay for about £300 delivered. Don't worry about Lithium batteries, just go with the Nicads.