Big Brake Kit recommendations

[keri-WMS]

Keri

We'll need to have a chat re bespoke brake lines/fittings sometime in the v near future.

No problem, let me know!

[keri-WMS]

'ere, I've got one pair of steel brackets to fit the WMS calipers etc to the standard E30 260x22 front discs - I hoped to fit a kit in the 14" bottletops but gave up as it's not doable and/or pointless.

However if re-using your standard discs floats someone's boat then you're in luck! Needs a few mm of wheel spacer to fit the 15" BBS as the caliper is close near the centre of the wheel.

Just a thought, better then me using the brackets as paperweights for another few years!

[Jhonno]

M3 setup...?

[Dezzy]

M3 setup...?

[keri-WMS]

It's looking REALLY bad for the E36 and E30 M3 to be totally honest. Both the T20 and now the larger T30x I was planning to use won't fit because of the stupid position of the strut's lugs.

So, there are two 5-stud options, both are a pain:

- 350mm+ discs, needing 18" (maybe 17") wheels.
- MUCH deeper discs, binning the heat shield and getting snug with the balljoints, but I don't have a car to play with, just an E36 hub. I could do more work if I had an E36 wishbone and steering arm balljoint I suppose!

The 325mm E36 330D discs are too small, and are 52mm deep (offset). I could do with knowing if a 76mm deep 5-series (E34/E39/E60) 300mm-ish disc can be made to fit an E36 if the heat shield is removed etc - but I doubt it greatly!

[Jhonno]

T20/T30x??

E30 M3 setup would be better.. It runs lower offset discs. I have binned my backing plates anyway, getting close to the ball joint is the way forward. I don't have a car together to measure currently, just struts and arms laying on the garage floor

I am fairly certain people have run 540i discs and calipers on an M3 with custom caliper mounts..

[Jhonno]

I had a 315mm setup on mine, using an E36 M3 caliper with bell and rotor..

If you wanted to fit E36 M3 discs, a 12.7 (Might be 10.7) spacer is required behind the disc

[keri-WMS]

I remember that setup I think - fitting E36 M3 discs on an E30 M3 I assume?

The T20 is the caliper that's been in 99.9% of WMS kits so far, the T30x is a bigger one we've not launched yet.

So was that 540i discs on an E36 M3 or an E30 M3, any idea where you saw it?

[Jhonno]

E30 M3..

Not off the top of my head. I had some Scandinavian (I think) guys telling me about running that setup at Santa Pod a couple of years back also.

[keri-WMS]

Hmmmm, would be really cool if it's possible...I'm stuck without a car to work on really.

I've got a 300mm vented 4 stud E30 rear kit getting closer and closer though....

[shimsheemer]

300mm. Rears. Vented.

I neeeeeed them. I shall be watching....

[keri-WMS]

[ImysE30]

It's a shame i'm not closer, you could use mine as a test project

[DanThe]

Hmmmm, would be really cool if it's possible...I'm stuck without a car to work on really.

I've got a 300mm vented 4 stud E30 rear kit getting closer and closer though....

4 pots on the back you perv

[BadDave]

I'm almost done working on a 310mm vented 2pc rear setup with 4 pots and seperate h/brake caliper.
Pics will be posted once I've sorted out the brake lines and h/brake cable Issues.

[keri-WMS]

Hmmmm, would be really cool if it's possible...I'm stuck without a car to work on really.

I've got a 300mm vented 4 stud E30 rear kit getting closer and closer though....

4 pots on the back you perv

Just 2-pots I'm afraid!

[keri-WMS]

I just took a couple of pics of the 260mm OEM disc-fit (one-off prototype) kit for reference...

[e301988325i]

Just out of interest, how much of the improvement on the 280mm kits comes from the bigger disc? I mean is it worth going 280 or are the calipers the biggest part of the upgrade?

[furbster]

I did my first track day since fitting the 4PO25 kit at Oulton Park a couple of weeks ago and suffered from really bad break judder after not too long at all. I think the discs are now warped although I don't get much pulsating through the pedal just the shuddering of the dashboard etc. Also when travelling very slowly in traffic I get a sqeak from the brakes that seems to be in time to the rotation of the wheel.

I had used the brakes briefly on road (it's mainly a track car) and they seemed fine for that but maybe not up to trackday use???

Just to clarify it's the 280mm discs running DS3000 pads. I'm also now running a MK2 Golf 1.3 Servo and Audi Master Cylinder as I have done an S50 engine conversion. I have been advised to change the MS for an E32 750il MS for increased power.

Any thoughts on this??

(Keri, I'm not moaning just a after a way forward)

[keri-WMS]

Just out of interest, how much of the improvement on the 280mm kits comes from the bigger disc? I mean is it worth going 280 or are the calipers the biggest part of the upgrade?

Sorry, must have missed this!

It's a combination of the factors:

DISC:
- More leverage/torque from the bigger disc (bigger pistons do the same but give a softer pedal)
- More thermal mass, so better resistance to brake fade.

CALIPER:
- Better design, giving better pad control and "feel".
- Lighter weight
- More effective pads for the same cost.

I did my first track day since fitting the 4PO25 kit at Oulton Park a couple of weeks ago and suffered from really bad break judder after not too long at all. I think the discs are now warped although I don't get much pulsating through the pedal just the shuddering of the dashboard etc. Also when travelling very slowly in traffic I get a sqeak from the brakes that seems to be in time to the rotation of the wheel.

I had used the brakes briefly on road (it's mainly a track car) and they seemed fine for that but maybe not up to trackday use???

Just to clarify it's the 280mm discs running DS3000 pads. I'm also now running a MK2 Golf 1.3 Servo and Audi Master Cylinder as I have done an S50 engine conversion. I have been advised to change the MS for an E32 750il MS for increased power.

Any thoughts on this??

(Keri, I'm not moaning just a after a way forward)

That sounds like un-even pad deposits more than the disc as such - warped discs normally pulse the pedal like mad! Th deposits have increased amounts of friction which makes the torque levels go up and down as the disc turns = vibration. Are there any dark marks on the disc surface?

Of course if you do have patchy pad deposits the heat load on the disc is uneven as well, which can lead to warped discs during use, all things brake being interrelated.

Did the pads have any break-in proceedure, and were the discs totally cleaned etc before use?

Normally the thing to do is very lightly skim the disc and start the bedding-in again, but it might be worth trying some different pads that have an abrasive break-in coating to scrub the discs clean....far cheaper & easier than a skim?

[keri-WMS]

...a bit more info on pad deposits: www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml

And some photos of what I'm on about:





One other option, new one on me I just found via google!

[Francisco]

I'vebeen trying to talk him into doing a M3 e30 kit for ages without luck...

[Jhonno]

I have just picked up some AP's to make my own.. There are a few disc options out there..

[keri-WMS]

Him as in me? I really want to, but the E30 M3 (and the E36 etc) strut-lugs are in a really annoying place, making the kit too big (330-360mm as about as small as possible).

I have a few more ideas though...

Not all bad news though - this happened! First rear kit, off to be tested next week.







290x19mm vented rear which retains the E30 handbrake, and a 2-pot CNC WMS caliper - all fits inside the 15" BBS.

[Jhonno]

I will be doing a 330 or 345 disc..

[keri-WMS]

I will be doing a 330 or 345 disc..

I don't want to get that big if I can help it, needs a 17"/18" wheel - not ideal for track / rally use. Not giving up yet though!

[Theo]

I had problems with pad deposits on Ferodo pads, will not be buying them again.

[keri-WMS]

I had problems with pad deposits on Ferodo pads, will not be buying them again.

You'll have to keep us up to date with the Performance Friction stuff!

So.....done any spannering today?

[Jhonno]

I will be doing a 330 or 345 disc..

I don't want to get that big if I can help it, needs a 17"/18" wheel - not ideal for track / rally use. Not giving up yet though!

Diameter wise 325 fits in a 16" wheel.. 17's are ideal for track use due to tyre choice, my e30 was awesome on it's 17's, not for rallying though..

[Theo]

I had problems with pad deposits on Ferodo pads, will not be buying them again.

You'll have to keep us up to date with the Performance Friction stuff!

So.....done any spannering today?

No

Need to shuffle stuff around in the garage so I can fit the new shiny bits undercover!

[shimsheemer]

Keri, I'm very interested in the rear kit so will be keeping an eye on the thread.

[furbster]

That sounds like un-even pad deposits more than the disc as such - warped discs normally pulse the pedal like mad! Th deposits have increased amounts of friction which makes the torque levels go up and down as the disc turns = vibration. Are there any dark marks on the disc surface?

Of course if you do have patchy pad deposits the heat load on the disc is uneven as well, which can lead to warped discs during use, all things brake being interrelated.

Did the pads have any break-in proceedure, and were the discs totally cleaned etc before use?

Normally the thing to do is very lightly skim the disc and start the bedding-in again, but it might be worth trying some different pads that have an abrasive break-in coating to scrub the discs clean....far cheaper & easier than a skim?

Not sure about marks, I will have a look at the weekend to have and see.

With regards to break in procedure I just went down to a local trading estate and kept running up and down between two roundabouts slowly increasing brake pressure on the straights. Is that sufficient??

I cleaned the discs with isopropyl alcohol before use.

Any suggestions on pads with the coating??

[furbster]

I had problems with pad deposits on Ferodo pads, will not be buying them again.

I used to run DS3000's in my standard calipers and found them to be excellent which is why I went for the same for the 4 pots.

What pads have you found to be the best Theo?

[Theo]

Well the new Performance friction pads I've put in feel amazing on the road, better than anything else I've tried. I'm going to Silverstone next Friday to really try them out in anger so will report back with my findings.

The Ferodos worked ok but didn't last long at all and crumbled badly. They also made a mess of my discs

EBC yellows were ok, but I didn't like the feel. Funnily enough, EBC reds were actually pretty good although I did severely cook them to the point where they did pretty much nothing!

Re. bedding in..

The following procedure is for PFC (Performance Friction Corporation) Carbon Metallic pads and PFC discs.

Due to PFC’s race proven technology, unlike other manufacturer’s brake products, it is recommended that new discs be bedded with new pads (only applicable to PFC discs). This will ensure that two flat surfaces are bedded, thus providing the optimum braking solution.

During the bedding process the driver must not drag the brakes by applying continuous pedal effort with his left foot to induce heat into the braking system. This will cause heat build up too quickly and result in glazed pads.

Likewise, the driver must ensure that the following procedure is adhered to and sufficient heat is generated in the braking system, otherwise the pads are prone to glazing if run too cold during the early stages of the pad’s life.

Whilst bedding, brake applications should be consistent and using constant pedal effort, which is progressively increased throughout the procedure.

5 light snubs*, light pedal application: 50mph ”“ 30mph
5 medium snubs, medium pedal application: 70mph ”“ 40mph
3 hard snubs, hard pedal application (no ABS activation): 100+mph ”“ 30mph**
Cool down period ”“ 5 mile run with very little brake (Do not sit at side of road with foot resting on brakes when hot, this is likely to damage the disc).
Stop and examine discs ”“ discs should show evidence of heat cycle (colouration in flange) and possess an even transfer layer of pad material on surfaces.
Bedding procedure should now be complete.
* Snub is the term used for the deceleration of a vehicle from a relatively high speed to a low speed using constant brake pedal effort.

[Francisco]

M3 E30 kits must fit behind 16's (315/320mm at most) as most of these cars are fitted with them.