Spacers & Wheel Bolts

[greggers]

Recently fitted Gaz coilovers and have the age-old problem of limited space between the collar supporting the bottom of the spring and the tyre-wall (the gap is about 2mm).

I've been looking at both Eibach and H&R spacers... Both the H&R and Eibach 25mm (per-side) ones look to come with bolts and bolt to the hub, I can then use the original (24mm/25mm???) bolts to bolt the wheels to the spacer.

Alternatively I could drop down to 20mm per side. In this size and below I'd need longer bolts (width of spacer + 25mm??).

I have a few (perhaps stupid questions):

Do the spacers of 20mm and less fall off when you take the wheel off / are they a pain to line up?

How much space do I really need between the collar on the coilover and the tyre-wall?

I appreciate the wheel bolts just hold the wheel on, the hub takes the load, but what are the opinions on the two types/designs; 4 long bolts VS 8 shorter bolts?

Could someone confirm that the type of bolts I need for standard 14" (yes, in know, don't laugh - short-term solution and all that) wheels are M12 thread with 1.5mm pitch?

What's the difference between loose tapered and fixed tapered bolts?

I assume I need tapered bolts rather than rounded, should they be 60 degrees?

Thanks in advance

Greg

[DanThe]

Studs are the way to go

[harry_p]

You can always drill and countersink a hole in the spacer and use a bolt through the spacer and disk locating screw holr into the hub to hold it all together when you remove a wheel.

[greggers]

With studs, what makes them stay in the hubs... Loctite?

Any recommendations as to where to get studs from?

[DasChin]

get the hubcentric spacers that bolt to the hub with a shallow bolt. you bolt the spacers to the hub.
then put the wheel studs into the spacers and loctite in as it acts as a hub
then the wheel goes onto the spacer.
I run this on my track car and its works well. you get extra wheels track too

pic:



they only cost me £50 plus postage for the 20mm ones. ideal as I can still run std E30 BBS et24 with the larger dics and 4 pot set up (300mm)

link to flea bay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20MM-Hubcentr ... 5ae1bec8ed

DC

[DanThe]

Nick why not just use long studs with alloy spacers? Your just making the whole setup 5 times heavier than it needs to be

[greggers]

Nick why not just use long studs with alloy spacers? Your just making the whole setup 5 times heavier than it needs to be

If the spacers are threaded, I don't see how I can fit studs like these http://www.rallynuts.com/wheel-studs/ai ... studs.html. The bit that's designed to go into the hub is only 15mm, then there's a hump and the thread for the wheel-nut starts. Doesn't the spacer and the hub need to go on the short part?

[allanallen]

How much space do I really need between the collar on the coilover and the tyre-wall?


Greg

Bugger all really, my track car(non bmw) runs approx. 2mm clearance between the strut body and the tyre with no problems whatsoever. Theres very little tyre deformation at the top of the wheel/tyre when your moving.
I'd personally be looking at other options if you really must have more clearance, spacers should be a last resorts IMO due to the adverse effects they can have on your suspension/steering geometry.
In the past I've turned a couple of mm off the collars to gain clearance, this is particularly useful on large bodied coilovers like Gaz Golds.
If your set-up allows you could also look at running shorter springs.

Why would you want to space them out as much as 25mm anyway?

Al

[greggers]

I guess as the car travels over bumps everything should move in parallel, I am concerned that the gap is too small at the moment though.

The longer term thinking is bigger (both diameter & width) wheels/tyres. For the extra width I'll need to change the offset or use spacers... My thinking is you can always add spacers to decrease the offset but you can't increase the offset of a wheel without machining it and risking its integrity.

I'm happy to find the best setup through some trial and error, but want a reasonable starting point.

The simplest, in terms of fitting and not having to worry about a stud conversion look to be the 25mm jobbies. If it turns out to be useless I can easily change.

[harry_p]

if you've got 2mm clearance a 5mm shim type spacer should give more than enough clearance.

my old compact ran big old 60 profile tyres, and even driven hard the top never moved enough to touch the collars. they actually touched with no spacer, used a 5mm spacer and no problems over many thousands of miles.

[jmc330i]

get the hubcentric spacers that bolt to the hub with a shallow bolt. you bolt the spacers to the hub.
then put the wheel studs into the spacers and loctite in as it acts as a hub
then the wheel goes onto the spacer.
I run this on my track car and its works well. you get extra wheels track too

pic:



they only cost me £50 plus postage for the 20mm ones. ideal as I can still run std E30 BBS et24 with the larger dics and 4 pot set up (300mm)

link to flea bay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20MM-Hubcentr ... 5ae1bec8ed

DC

Are you running those VW spacers? Isn't there a difference between VW and BMW centre bore?

[greggers]

if you've got 2mm clearance a 5mm shim type spacer should give more than enough clearance.

my old compact ran big old 60 profile tyres, and even driven hard the top never moved enough to touch the collars. they actually touched with no spacer, used a 5mm spacer and no problems over many thousands of miles.

That's good to know, thanks Harry!

[MillRat]

This is better as the studs bolt directly to the hub (no transferring of forces to the spacer, then to the hub). Also, as the hubcentric spacer (H&R) carries the load of the wheel, there is no danger of the wheel moving relative to the hub. This is a MUCH better and safer option.

For a race car which must withstand very high loads, you want the system holding the wheels onto the hub to be as strong as possible.

The extended studs are from Turner Motorsport and Loctite is used to fasten the studs into the hub. Also, the torque used to fasten the studs into the hub is much higher than required when tightening the wheel nuts.

[Screacher]

Be warned! If things go wrong, this can happen:



This happened to me on the Nordschleife on a track day last year. It was caused by the collars not being tight enough. Sh!t happens and they came loose. It was the front left so once the tyre came into contact with the collar, the forward motion of the top part of the tyre wound the collar down until it could go no further (it would wind it up on the right). You can see in the pic that the tyre wall had been in contact with the collar, but once it had nowhere else to go, it got smelly.

Fortunately we noticed the burning rubber as we drove up Kesselchen and I told my son (who was driving at the time) to ease off and get back to the car park. He didn't notice any problem (insensitive bu99er! - I blame his mother) but when I drove it from the car park to a cafe for a late lunch, I noticed the steering pulling very sharply to the left

Once back at the hotel, it was time to change the track wheels for the road tyres and the drive back to UK. It was only then that I noticed the groove all the way around the tyre. The canvas/webbing was clearly visible

We were lucky. Very lucky. For those of you who know the Ring, there's a tight right after Kesselchen and prior to the run up to Karussell, and another tight right at Hohe Acht. The track then winds downhill very quickly through a couple of hard rights at Brunchen before you hammer it downhill at Pflantzgarten. The timid will brake before the jump, but after a while, your balls grow bigger and you take it flat and brake hard as (er, just after) you land before throwing it right in the compression. I dunno at what point it would have let go (anywhere could be fatal) but had it lasted as far as PF when all the weight and stresses would be on the front left and then let go, I doubt I would be typing this.

What have I done? I bought a set of 10mm spacers but haven't fitted them I'm still undecided whether to simply use them (not hub-centric), buy some hub-centric ones, or bite the bullet and do the stud thing (at your age? - ed) However, I do check the tightness of the collars regularly, and have wrapped duck-tape around the threads of the strut to "discourage" the collar from dropping low enough to cause a collar/tyre interface problem.

Thanks for the reminder greggers. Must pull my finger out and do something!

[MillRat]

Be warned! If things go wrong, this can happen:

This happened to me on the Nordschleife on a track day last year. It was caused by the collars not being tight enough. ********* happens and they came loose. It was the front left so once the tyre came into contact with the collar, the forward motion of the top part of the tyre wound the collar down until it could go no further (it would wind it up on the right). You can see in the pic that the tyre wall had been in contact with the collar, but once it had nowhere else to go, it got smelly.

Fortunately we noticed the burning rubber as we drove up Kesselchen and I told my son (who was driving at the time) to ease off and get back to the car park. He didn't notice any problem (insensitive bu99er! - I blame his mother) but when I drove it from the car park to a cafe for a late lunch, I noticed the steering pulling very sharply to the left

Once back at the hotel, it was time to change the track wheels for the road tyres and the drive back to UK. It was only then that I noticed the groove all the way around the tyre. The canvas/webbing was clearly visible

We were lucky. Very lucky. For those of you who know the Ring, there's a tight right after Kesselchen and prior to the run up to Karussell, and another tight right at Hohe Acht. The track then winds downhill very quickly through a couple of hard rights at Brunchen before you hammer it downhill at Pflantzgarten. The timid will brake before the jump, but after a while, your balls grow bigger and you take it flat and brake hard as (er, just after) you land before throwing it right in the compression. I dunno at what point it would have let go (anywhere could be fatal) but had it lasted as far as PF when all the weight and stresses would be on the front left and then let go, I doubt I would be typing this.

What have I done? I bought a set of 10mm spacers but haven't fitted them I'm still undecided whether to simply use them (not hub-centric), buy some hub-centric ones, or bite the bullet and do the stud thing (at your age? - ed) However, I do check the tightness of the collars regularly, and have wrapped duck-tape around the threads of the strut to "discourage" the collar from dropping low enough to cause a collar/tyre interface problem.

Thanks for the reminder greggers. Must pull my finger out and do something!

Lucky. My brother has a similar story with his E36 (although not on a race track and certainly not to the same degree as you experienced). He solved the problem with 10mm spacers and TMS's E36 front hub extenders.

Can I suggest that you never run spacers unless they are hubcentric spacers. Also, once you fit the spacers the factory wheel bolts will probably not be long enough to properly screw into the hub. Honestly wheel studs are better anyway as it is very easy to locate the wheel on the hub (particularly if you change tyres regularly).

[Screacher]

Lucky. My brother has a similar story with his E36 (although not on a race track and certainly not to the same degree as you experienced). He solved the problem with 10mm spacers and TMS's E36 front hub extenders.

Can I suggest that you never run spacers unless they are hubcentric spacers. Also, once you fit the spacers the factory wheel bolts will probably not be long enough to properly screw into the hub. Honestly wheel studs are better anyway as it is very easy to locate the wheel on the hub (particularly if you change tyres regularly).

Bolts definitely not long enough and yes, I change wheels regularly on track days (road. track and wets - it's amazing what you can fit into a stripped E30!).

[greggers]

Whilst scouring the interweb for studs I came across this... http://www.total-bmw-mag.co.uk/news/pro ... heel-studs

Are 'West Suffolk Racing' on here? I like the look of these but it doesn't say how long they are?

[DanThe]

Those are similar to the studs/nuts I bought from the US, but mine were more like £80 all in IIRC
Details here - http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... light=stud

[greggers]

They've pinged me back... 16 stud sets £89.99 all in. Just trying to find out the length.

[Screacher]

Did you find out the length?

[greggers]

I risked it and ordered, will measure tonight. At a guess I'd say 80mm in total.

[greggers]

Some dimensions:

Total length = 75mm
Thread Length = 40mm (Wheel nut side)
Thread Length = 13mm (Hub side)
Bullet Nose = 12mm
Hump between threads = 10mm

They look/feel very nice quality, paid £89.99 for the set inc. postage.

Might get chance to fit them tomorrow.