Proposed E39 touring purchase

[Splondike]

I am planning to swap my Zafira GSi for an E39 touring, in fact I have been trying for six months but my better half really wants to keep the Zaffy. She especially likes to be able to pop up the seats when we have an extra child or two to take somewhere, but I argue that we rarely do that and if we have not got the extra seats we just can't do it !

To give you some background, I have three kids aged 5, 6 and 9 and we quite often go camping as the kids love it so space is a premium. I am finding that the GSi is quite expensive to run and I don't feel I am enjoying it as much as I should be for the amount it costs to run, and I love E39s. The GSi is pretty poor on fuel, in fact the sport is much more economical, but it is quite quick (in a straight line anyway) and provides a few comedy moments. My missus is an ok but not very confident driver and she is quite happy driving the Zafira. The Zafira a 53 plate and has done 30K and is worth about 10K for which I can get a nice (but slightly older) Touring from X to 51 plate in 530i or 530d guise with a few more miles too.

Basically the cost of fuel / insurance is not an issue however I would feel happier paying what I do for a car I enjoy more (if you get what I mean).

So I have come up with some pros and cons and I thought I would put it to the wisdom of the zone to come up with some real clinchers that will "seal the deal". Basically if I don't come up with some really good reasons it aint gonna happen, it may sound like I am under the thumb but that is not the case, it is just that it is "our" car not my car and she does not want to change it !

Right, here are the reasons to keep the Zafira as far as I can see

Nice newish car
Seven seats
Changing cars can be a nuisance
Rachael can drive it easily and is comfortable with it
Much larger boot than E39 touring

Here are the reasons to sell the Zafira so far ( not all that good ! )

Expensive to run (poor fuel consumption, expensive tyres, expensive insurance)
My hatred of Vauxhall dealerships local to me
Possible slower depreciation on the BMW
Wider rear seat in BMW accomodates child seats better
I would get more enjoyment from the BMW

Cheers

[billgatese30]

e39 is a much more comfortbale car for both drivers and passengers (which makes hearing are we there yet, so much less annoying)
more reliable
cheaper fuel for those long weekends
safer (yours has 3 star nCap rating, the e39 has 4)

can't say any pro points for the zaf as i have never been in one, but i did like my dads old e39

[Geeman]

E39's are great cars. In the family we've had a 540i (awesome) a 528i (very capable) and a 530d (the best all-rounder)

A 530d Touring is a very sensible car, but at the same time a brilliant drivers car compared to a lowly Vauxhall. Different completely. A cruiser, but a bruiser at the same time.

Do it, and you'll never look back.

For example, on the Trader at the moment there's a '99 T plate 530d SE Touring with 58k on her for £7995. So you can see that you'd be able to get a younger car than a T plate for your money, and you can see they hold their value well even after 8 years!!!

[Splondike]

Cheers Chris / Giles

The safety aspect is a good one

I have been trawling the trader etc every week. There are quite a few 530s that have appealed. There was a lovely Alpina up in Scotland for 10K which had only done 90K too.

Still keep them coming. The main problem is convincing that an older higher mileage car is somehow better

[Jhonno]

If it was gonna have any problems it would have had them by now..

[JOGA]

I had a E39 recently and my wife loved it!

Let your wife testdrive a decent E39 and she will probably be easier to persvade

[Geeman]

Gareth (Gazza325cab) has an oil burning E39 at the moment... might be worth having a chat to him about it.

[gazm3]

Yeah,

Its such a great car to drive.
I am well pleased with it.
I carn't believe the difference with fuel. 525tds
Its comfortable and great for the kids.
The wife loves it, see drives it mainly.
I paid 4k. I have just upgraded the lights all round.

Just the 4 No BM's.



Cheers Gareth.

[Splondike]

Looks nice Gareth. Oh well I will keep working on her and let you know how I get on.

[elvis]

currently owning a 54 plate gsi and an e30 tourer and having regular access to a 530 sludge drinker unless the bm was a sport model i would stick with the gsi especially with 3 kids in tow the bm i drive is se spec and is a bit soft when driven hard on the winding roads of mid wales......i average 28 to the gallon from the gsi which is marginally better than the 25 mpg i get from my e30

[FBF]

mitsubishi legnum

[Splondike]

currently owning a 54 plate gsi and an e30 tourer and having regular access to a 530 sludge drinker unless the bm was a sport model i would stick with the gsi especially with 3 kids in tow the bm i drive is se spec and is a bit soft when driven hard on the winding roads of mid wales......i average 28 to the gallon from the gsi which is marginally better than the 25 mpg i get from my e30

Nice to have another angle...

Don't you find the handling of the GSI infuriating though ? It's not bad for what it is, but mine really struggles to get the power down and understeers like a bitch.

The GSi is very civilised on a long journey and I love the seats I was hoping to get a sport model E39 if I can, but will go for an SE if the car is right.

[orangecurry]

A friends brother has a tailgate E39 R or S reg - the tailgate has rusted from the inside-out; apparently the drain holes clog-up and the water just sits there and destroys it.
When looking to buy, open the tailgate and look on the inside.

Another friend has a slightly later E39 Tourer; great to drive but he says there isn't THAT much room in the back for luggage/buggys etc.

[Splondike]

mitsubishi legnum

Absolute beast that VR-4 thingy ! However I know nothing about them and I don't really like the look of them. Would rather have a 540i touring than that.

[Geeman]

It's not all about space though... is it? A BMW TD Touring, although praised for it's load lugging capacity, is more about the class & refinement, power & performance, coupled with a frugal fuel thirst.

[Splondike]

A friends brother has a tailgate E39 R or S reg - the tailgate has rusted from the inside-out; apparently the drain holes clog-up and the water just sits there and destroys it.
When looking to buy, open the tailgate and look on the inside.

Another friend has a slightly later E39 Tourer; great to drive but he says there isn't THAT much room in the back for luggage/buggys etc.

Yeah, have seen the tailgates rot, not sure if the issue is resolved on the facelift cars or not...

My main worry is the lack of space in the boot TBH, but my kids are older now and there is less to lug about under normal circumstances and I can always stick a trailer on when we camp I suppose.

[orangecurry]

Leftfield choice - turbo Volvo estate. One of the guys I work for has two! The original 1996 Touring-car road-going 850R (which is much better than the 850 T-5 or T-5R, and cost 10k more when new) and the 'new' 300BHP monster.

You really can fit thousands of people and all their luggage and a fridge, they go round corners like stink, AND the original owner will have been old and driven slowly, so you will get an underused main-dealer maintained bargain.

[Geeman]

I can always stick a trailer on when we camp I suppose.

...or a roof box.

[Splondike]

Leftfield choice - turbo Volvo estate. One of the guys I work for has two! The original 1996 Touring-car road-going 850R (which is much better than the 850 T-5 or T-5R, and cost 10k more when new) and the 'new' 300BHP monster.

You really can fit thousands of people and all their luggage and a fridge, they go round corners like stink, AND the original owner will have been old and driven slowly, so you will get an underused main-dealer maintained bargain.

I may take a look at one to see, I don't really like them that much but could be an option. But I have developed a case of BMWitis which prevents me from seeing past them... My mate has an S60 D5 which is a nice car though... hmmm

Giles, I have a roof box funnily enough at one stage we had the Zafira, roof box and trailer full going to the South of France a couple of years ago. But we were six up.

[elvis]

the gsi doeswhat it says on the tin....set it up right for the bends and u will loose ure bottle before it will loose its grip ......dont get me wrong though its not what id call the perfect drivers car.....the bm can be much more involving and rewarding to drive. but if u have to get a roof box or even a trailer then i would suggest that the bm is a bit small for a growing family.if u are thinking of looking at volvos the 850s are getting a bit long in the tooth the original v70s were great to drive and the t5 autos are still quick and much less thrashed than the manual versions......if ure going to look at the newer rounded ones try and streach to the 6 speed ones much nicer to drive than the older 5 speed models

[Jon_Bmw]

Well i would suggest an audi s6 avant, but i think the running costs puts it out of the question!

Orangecurry what was the difference between the 850r and the t5r then? I'm intrigued as i thought they were basically identical bar different wheels iirc, with the only other difference being the years that they came out. Nearly got a t5 estate, but i could only ever come across autos, and one auto car in ones life is enough for any man that enjoys driving. Sorry mark for the slightly off topic

[orangecurry]

I've been trying to find a definitive answer, cos there is a lot of confusion over these cars - here's something I found which almost translates:-

"Swischen those differentiated between a wichtiches
850 T5-R un 850R, is the 850R hatt differential lock (brakes). The getribe is called M59H, more strengthened and three times zyncronisert.
850R har also large injecting nozzles 350cc against 300, large turbo TD04-16T (T5-R TD05-15G). "

I hope that clears things up

They only made the 850R for one year (1996) or thereabouts; the T-5 and the T-5R were the earlier versions, go-faster ones to be sure, but then to end the run, Volvo uprated everything
1993 - T-5 = 225 BHP
1994 - T-5R = 240 BHP

Most T-5R owners think they have the limited edition very rare ultimate version - they don't. There are a lot fewer 850Rs - they had to make and sell to the public 1000 examples of the T-5R so they could race it in the Touring cars. The 850R came later. BTW you are correct about the 850R wheels - gunmetal grey 17" 7-spokes.

I believe the 850R improvements over the T-5R were 250 BHP instead of 240 with a slightly different turbo, but the bigger changes were that Volvo revisited suspension, ARBs, gearbox and brakes with the lessons learned from the previous 2 years on the T-5R - they did this IIRC because the demand was there after the racing successes, but because the 850 was being replaced by the V70 they didn't make very many. The 850R is lower, faster, and less compromising than the previous T-5R.

But there are lots of webpages that disagree with me - to be sure, the 850R is in many ways a parts-bin car, which is why the info, or at least hard facts, are patchy to say the least

[Jon_Bmw]

I've been trying to find a definitive answer, cos there is a lot of confusion over these cars - here's something I found which almost translates:-

"Swischen those differentiated between a wichtiches
850 T5-R un 850R, is the 850R hatt differential lock (brakes). The getribe is called M59H, more strengthened and three times zyncronisert.
850R har also large injecting nozzles 350cc against 300, large turbo TD04-16T (T5-R TD05-15G). "

I hope that clears things up

They only made the 850R for one year (1996) or thereabouts; the T-5 and the T-5R were the earlier versions, go-faster ones to be sure, but then to end the run, Volvo uprated everything
1993 - T-5 = 225 BHP
1994 - T-5R = 240 BHP

Most T-5R owners think they have the limited edition very rare ultimate version - they don't. There are a lot fewer 850Rs - they had to make and sell to the public 1000 examples of the T-5R so they could race it in the Touring cars. The 850R came later. BTW you are correct about the 850R wheels - gunmetal grey 17" 7-spokes.

I believe the 850R improvements over the T-5R were 250 BHP instead of 240 with a slightly different turbo, but the bigger changes were that Volvo revisited suspension, ARBs, gearbox and brakes with the lessons learned from the previous 2 years on the T-5R - they did this IIRC because the demand was there after the racing successes, but because the 850 was being replaced by the V70 they didn't make very many. The 850R is lower, faster, and less compromising than the previous T-5R.

But there are lots of webpages that disagree with me - to be sure, the 850R is in many ways a parts-bin car, which is why the info, or at least hard facts, are patchy to say the least

Blimey Mr Curry i knew you were a useful souce of info, but not that useful You mentioning the power difference jogged my memory that there was two different outputs for the bigger turbo t5's i.e the t5r and 850r, but i would have put money on it being the other way around. I now know not to ever gamble

Yeah your last paragraph makes sense, "What have we got left to build something nice before that nasty v70 comes out."

They still command quite a premium, especially in that dull yellow colour, i saw one drive past just a few weeks ago actually in south wiltshire, i wonder if it was a t5r or an 850r.

Mark i am sorry, i seem to have gone somewhat astray from topic title

Back on topic midly...Your Gsi has it had the rear calipers changed as they are or were a warrenty item a few years ago, basically a zaffy would come in for rear discs and pads, and end up needed the calipers as they siezed on rather easily. I can't remember if it was the bosch or the lucas calipers that screwed up. Perhaps another + point for the BMW. It also may have only been the early ones i'm not sure if a 53 plate would be affected, unless it was kicking about the dealership for a while.

Davetouring might be able to advise you better as its been a couple of years now, i think he still works for vauxhall.

[orangecurry]

apologies - off-topic still - last comment on the Volvos

I just asked the Boss a few questions

1) the yanks never saw the 250 BHP engine management/turbo change
2) the T-5R was about 32k new - the R was 37.5k new, but my boss's was 39k as it had the extra seats in the 'boot', and an integrated child seat.
3) the R had every conceivable 'extra' as standard - all leather/wood everywhere, heated seats, premium sound system... blah blah blah

but we found out (when he ordered some new ones) it has smaller front discs than the T-5R; the same as the T5 as it happens Maybe volvo found they didn't need that extra rotating mass, or maybe as I said they had loads of T5 discs left over in the parts bin.

What everyone seems to agree on is that the T5-R started out at 240 BHP, and the 850R came later with 250 BHP (I think the autos were slightly detuned but only dropped the torque figures). Some people reckon the LATER T-5Rs had 250BHP, i.e. the same bigger injectors and turbo, and only the name changed.

But we are fairly sure that the lower suspension/ARBs/braking/gearbox revisions were 850R only.

[Splondike]

Mark i am sorry, i seem to have gone somewhat astray from topic title

Back on topic midly...Your Gsi has it had the rear calipers changed as they are or were a warrenty item a few years ago, basically a zaffy would come in for rear discs and pads, and end up needed the calipers as they siezed on rather easily. I can't remember if it was the bosch or the lucas calipers that screwed up. Perhaps another + point for the BMW. It also may have only been the early ones i'm not sure if a 53 plate would be affected, unless it was kicking about the dealership for a while.

Davetouring might be able to advise you better as its been a couple of years now, i think he still works for vauxhall.

No probs - this is all quite interesting stuff

I am not sure on the brake front... it's probably due some brake replacement this year so I will find out I guess !!!

[Davenotouring]

53 plate is a fair while after the problems.

The Bosch ones were the faulty ones. Not EVERY car was affected, but those which were required new calipers, discs & pads, and handbrake cables. £500 odd.

Anything from 02 onwards should have the Lucas stuff anyway.

[Splondike]

53 plate is a fair while after the problems.

The Bosch ones were the faulty ones. Not EVERY car was affected, but those which were required new calipers, discs & pads, and handbrake cables. £500 odd.

Anything from 02 onwards should have the Lucas stuff anyway.

That's not a problem then

Cheers Dave...

I was looking at the old 850s and they seem to go for buttons... what is wrong with the V70s ?

[Jon_Bmw]

Nothing really that i know of...well bar fwd. I just prefer the look of the 850 over the v70. I am probably imagining this: But the v70 looks heavier and probably is due to more safety features, which actually is probably a good thing for someone with a family.

Dave thanks for clearing that up, i thought it was the case that it got rectified on the later models. All of ours usually got done on warrenty iirc. The calipers seemed to always be on back order

[orangecurry]

The latest V70R is sort-of AWD; it has some kind of clever diff which transfers power to the back; same system as the XC90 IIRC. Depends how big the family's needs are - I'd rather have an 850

[Andyboy]

E39's are reliable eh??

Yes and no. If you're lucky it'll not cost much to run. If you're not, it will break you. I wouldn't touch a 540i with a shitty stick - fuel consumption is quite savage, possibly head gasket issues. Same with the 535i V8. Similarly be very wary of diesels. The old 525tds isn't a bad old thing but not that great on fuel as an auto and they don't go that well. But it's a fairly old tech engine - watch for the £800 diesel pumps though. I don't like the 530d's. They go well but the potential for engine disasters are too great. Turbos, air mass meters, injectors all go wrong and there was a problem with the ECU that made the engine go into spastic mode, overrev and blow up. On a manual you could just leave it in gear and stall it, on an auto you light a fag and stand by whilst the engine detonates. A good engine spoilt by crap ancilliaries.
Autoboxes are pricey to fix also. The one to have is a manual trans 1999 onwards double vanos car. The later 520i 2.2's aren't bad but if you can stretch to one, a 2000 onwards 530i is the one to have. They go well and do 30+ to the gallon and are pretty reliable. The airbags on the Touring rear suspension can go 'pop' after 100k as well, especially when loaded up.

If age wasn't an issue, a really nice low mileage E34 Touring is a better used car. They were so solidly built and the E39 is not cut from the same cloth.

[Splondike]

Thanks Andy, I am a little put off by the potential problems with a 530d and farm machinery has never appealed that much to me To be honest the 530i was my favourite of the bunch anyway and I have seen a couple of nice Sports that I could afford with sensible mileage so I will have another drive in the coming weeks and see.

[Andyboy]

This looks just about perfect for you............

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2002-02-BMW-525i- ... dZViewItem

Right model, mileage and spec. Would be nice for £5000!

[Jon_Bmw]

Andy is that problem also related to EGR valves failing?, they then rev up as hard as possible until they explode like you said. It's just i have heard of a similar problem with some newish french clutter-the 02-05 clio diesels. Wouldn't be very pleasent watching the BMW die, it would probably be amusing watching the renault.

[Splondike]

This looks just about perfect for you............

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2002-02-BMW-525i- ... dZViewItem

Right model, mileage and spec. Would be nice for £5000!

Previously owned by Damon Hill don't you know !

Does look nice too. I can probably spend a little more than that and get a sub 100,000 mile 530i which would be even better... Lets see how I get on persuading the missus first.

[carpmart]

I have run the same 528i SE for nearly 6 years and I have put 130k on top of the 62k it had when I bought it and other than tyres and servicing and two hedghog resistors which control the fan (common fault), it has been faultless.

Prior to this car I had 32 cars in 14 years and as I have said, i have had this now for six years which probably shows what i think of this car! It is a brilliant towcar as well easliy handling large caravans and most importantly is great for getting my kit car to track days!

The problem is I cant find anything that i like to replace it so have decided to run it into the ground!

You cant go wrong with an e39!