Is technology making road cars worse ? Chris Harris

[pony]

I saw this video a while back and have been meaning to post on here ....

Road tester Chris Harris talking about how technology influencing road cars and the driving experience including plenty of talk on Ferraris, Porsches and BMW M3s .... Well worth watching plus he bigs up the BMW M3 .... Internal combustion engine aspiration (NA v Turbo), Gearboxes etc ....

Check out this video on YouTube:




Be interested to hear your thoughts below ...

[retroboyo]

Looks interesting, I'll watch that tonight. Personally, I prefer driving old cars, something more real and honest about the driving experience.

[pony]

Also Chris Harris talks about the E46 M3 being one of the greatest road cars of all time

[retroboyo]

"We can now assume that the manual gearbox is dead"

I hope not

[rallygaz]

got 11:50 mins in before the yank plank done me nut!

[maggspower]

A cool guy Chris Harris, seems down to earth for someone who can spunk, it would seem, whatever he likes at German and Italian exotica, knows his shizzle too.

As for tech making cars worse, I have to agree. Look at saftey, NCAP has now made it so that all pillars in cars seem to be about a foot wide, which is cool if you are the kind of driver who ends up on the roof quite alot. The problem is these pillars leave you not with windows, more portholes and almost as many blind spots than Stevie Wonder. I have no data, but these must create accidents.

Flappy paddles, they can't even get them right at the supercar end of the spectrum so what chance have we got. I have driven with them they are dire. Electric power steering is not about improving the feel of a car, its cheaper than a hydraulic pump, and your gran can manover it at parking speeds.

Modern engines, brilliant, more economical, more powerful (have to be to pull the lardy things around). Just make sure you have a value size tub of bum lube for when they go wrong, and they will go wrong.

One genuinely positive thing with moderns is there is alot less rust than there used to be, its not all gone but its much better generaly. So I suggest we all buy Hyundai

[harry_p]

I agree with most of what he says, but then I guess most on here do too which is why we drive, or have an interest in, e30s

Cars new enough to be reliable and comfortable but old enough to still feel connected and 'raw'.

However, he also goes on about the downfall starting when electronics started to take over from physical controls, yet the e46 m3 he continually mentions had an electronic throttle. You have to go back to the e36 m3 for an m car where you directly control the throttle with no electronic intervention

As for e46s being collectible. Possibly at some point but certainly not yet. There are just too many around at the moment, values won't firm up or start to climb until the numbers have thinned out and they're past the cheap old fast car stage.

[pony]

Did the E36 M3 Evolutions not have 6 individual throttle bodies and fly-by-wire throttles ?

E46 M3s will not be collectible till a VERY long time .... And M3 CSLs will be the most collectible I think .... Then M3 CS with Manual Gearboxes ....

Seems funny road cars go through different stages ....
New expensive rare Yuppie only see BMW Dealers
Newish many about still see BMW Dealers
Life cycle ends new model cones out. Old model price falls. Wider calibre of people own the model.
Price falls more even wider calibre of people own. Serviced at BMW and Independents.
Price falls more. Falls in wrong hands. Thrashed. Modded. Molested. Neglected. Servicing not kept up.
Price free falls. Rust. Electronic gremlins.
Accelerate 20 years.
Price begins to appreciate ....

Were not M3 Sport Evolutions being thrashed in the 1990s before people started caring for them ?

[verde]

A cool guy Chris Harris, seems down to earth for someone who can spunk, it would seem, whatever he likes at German and Italian exotica, knows his shizzle too.

As for tech making cars worse, I have to agree. Look at saftey, NCAP has now made it so that all pillars in cars seem to be about a foot wide, which is cool if you are the kind of driver who ends up on the roof quite alot. The problem is these pillars leave you not with windows, more portholes and almost as many blind spots than Stevie Wonder. I have no data, but these must create accidents.

Flappy paddles, they can't even get them right at the supercar end of the spectrum so what chance have we got. I have driven with them they are dire. Electric power steering is not about improving the feel of a car, its cheaper than a hydraulic pump, and your gran can manover it at parking speeds.

Modern engines, brilliant, more economical, more powerful (have to be to pull the lardy things around). Just make sure you have a value size tub of bum lube for when they go wrong, and they will go wrong.

One genuinely positive thing with moderns is there is alot less rust than there used to be, its not all gone but its much better generaly. So I suggest we all buy Hyundai

My dad and I were almost killed twice in 3 days thanks to the pillars on one of those new corsas. Theyr atleast a foot thick and impossible to see out of. We almost got T boned by someone doing about 80, and another time I cant remember the details of but we had to pull over. And it wasnt like he wasnt paying attention, I too was looking, we just could not see out of the miserable little shit box

[pac1982]

Even low end cars of today can self park, self brake, have distance sensors, can warn you about lane changes and can navigate for you to name but a few modern gizmo's.

lets be realistic here that's essentially saying cars can all ready steer themselves, be aware of any surroundings and have the ability to plan routes, couple that with the age old concept of cruise control combine them all in to one big system and there it is the self driving car.

Performance road cars as we know them will be a thing of the past in the next 30 years

[harry_p]

Did the E36 M3 Evolutions not have 6 individual throttle bodies and fly-by-wire throttles ?

6 individual throttle bodies and a cable linking them directly to the accelerator pedal.

They were quite often criticised for a heavy pedal though which is probably part of what prompted an electronic throttle on the e46 ( which also happens to make cruise control and traction and stability control systems easier to integrate )

Tbh you get used to it pretty quickly, I don't notice it until I step into something modern and can barely feel the pedal

[pony]

Did the E36 M3 Evolutions not have 6 individual throttle bodies and fly-by-wire throttles ?

6 individual throttle bodies and a cable linking them directly to the accelerator pedal.

They were quite often criticised for a heavy pedal though which is probably part of what prompted an electronic throttle on the e46 ( which also happens to make cruise control and traction and stability control systems easier to integrate )

Tbh you get used to it pretty quickly, I don't notice it until I step into something modern and can barely feel the pedal

Does having a fly-by-wire throttle improve throttle response over a cable operated throttle ?

Apparently on the E92 M3 the throttle positions is monitored 200 times per second or maybe I got that mixed up with the ECU can process 200 million calculations per second ?


I understand steering could be fly-by-wire but for safety reasons it is hydraulically operated (PS not sure how the electrical steering on the Porsche 991 works ?)

[harry_p]

The response can be programmed however you want it, which also means manufacturers can fudge it to improve emissions ratings by doing things like putting a delay in the throttle map to smooth throttle inputs and reduce fuel consumption as well as an oddly disconnected feeling.

For a lot of cars you can buy tuning boxes which alter the throttle map to give more throttle sooner. You don't get any more power but then engine can 'see' full throttle at 75% of the pedal travel, it just tricks you into thinking the car is quicker when in reality you could do the same thing by pressing the pedal quicker.

The sport button on most cars alters the throttle position map, again a nice marketing gimmick for something which probably took about 5 mins to program into the system.

And yes, technically a drive by wire system can measure inputs and respond quicker than a cable, but no matter how good the system they never have the same purely mechanical feel.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not totally against technology. I don't want to go back to manual chokes or carbs and points which need near constant tinkering, but I do like my cars o feel like a mechanical machine than a driving simulator.

[DanThe]

Most of the S54 engined race cars ive been involved with have had the elec throttle removed in favour of cable due to the difference in response and feel

[pony]

Most of the S54 engined race cars ive been involved with have had the elec throttle removed in favour of cable due to the difference in response and feel

But I thought as see the post immediately above yours electronic throttle gives better response than cable (though wont have that mechanical feel) ? So is it produce a less responsive throttle or does it just make it easier for the driver to driver smoother as throttle is less responsive ?

[ajay]

Most of the S54 engined race cars ive been involved with have had the elec throttle removed in favour of cable due to the difference in response and feel

Vanos is another thing thats binned on most high spec s54 race cars.