E30 Sound Overhaul

[Royalratch]

The problem:
Bog standard, lame E30 Coupe sound.

The objective:
Overhaul the sound quality, fat budget.

The restrictions:
1) It must be based around the existing Blaupunkt Freestyler Head unit (GPS is too useful and it looks inoffensive in the dash)

2) No door builds and no subs - stay within the factory layout, could go bigger speakers in the rear.

So. That leaves amps, sound deadening, carbon-titanium weave parcel shlelf etc. I do have the seperate tweeters in the a-pillar.

Go!

[miniblob]

I would go for the best front components you can afford (will have to be two way if you don't want a door build!) and run them off the best amp you can afford. Make sure you obviously put lots of soundproofing everywhere you can - it'll all help the speakers sound their best - obviousley behind the front speakers and then doors, floors, etc!! Also, it'll be well worth mounting the fronts on an mdf ring to give them a more solid mounting.

Wouldn't bother with bigger rear speakers - just get some half decent coax speakers for a bit of rear fill if you really want to - a lot of people after sound quality wouldn't even bother with any rears, although i normally like to have something there!!!

I could name brands, but everyone will suggest something different!!
Personally I love the sound of the DLS components - vocals are excellent!!

Sure you can't fit in a little sub?? A small enclosure 10" (or even an 8") will improve the sound quality dramatically. You'll be surprised at how small/subtle a sub enclosure can be if you try. Subs don't have to be big and boomy - how is a little 4" or even 6" front driver supposed to deliver good mids and bass?? They can't usually produce all the lower frequencies very well (if at all!).
If a sub is set up well for SQ purposes, you shouldn't even be able to tell it's there - until you turn it off!!!!

What types of music do you listen to?? This can make a difference to what kit you buy - some handle different music better than others.
Make sure you have a listen to any speakers before you buy - if your serious about getting decent quality!! If your ears are happy, then don't worry too much about what others say!!

What is your budget???? You say it's fat, but that could be £500 to £1k for some, and £10k for others!!!!!

Hope some of this rambling helps you!!!

[jon_pure_british]

i cant go into any details or im going to be late for work, but audiobahn may be worth a look at

[Royalratch]

Thanks for the response.

I guess I'm into some heavy soundproofing in the footwell cavitys behind the speakers and underside of the parcel shelf. Maybe re-inforce the parcel shelf with some MDF for the rears to sit to? What kind of soundproofing - is that the same as deadening?

Then get 4 new speakers, wire them into a 2 or 4 channel amp (2 if the fronts are to be driven by the head unit).

Will better speaker cable help?

I've got the door pod tweeters, I never wired them up tho, would you recommend that? Do I need a crossover?

You say the fronts have the most impact yet they sound the worst in my car - when I fade to the back it sounds fuller. Weird.

Does cutting out the speaker footwell trim for the speaker to have clear projection help?

I have 4 x Carbon/Ti JBL 502 GT's at the mo - these any good?

Thanks all.

[miniblob]

Soundproofing is important - the less noise there is in the cabin already, the better your speakers will sound!! (there's a bit more to it than that really though!!)

There's loads of different makes of soundproofing - dynamat is probably the best known, but i don't know a huge amount on that yet!! (normally have that done for me!!). Lots of different methods too, depending on how extreme/thorough you want to be!!

I would definately get 2-way components up front - that'll be a mid/bass driver, a tweeter and crossover unit. Will give you much better sound.
As you said, you can either go for a 2 channel amp to just run the fronts, or you may aswell get a 4 channel amp to run the fronts and rears.
You will definately want to run new speaker cables anyway, as they will be coming from the amp (wherever you choose to mount it - boot usually) and not the h/u in the dash as before!!
You'll also want a pair (or possibly two if your amp'ing the rears) or RCA (phono) leads to run from the h/u to the amp. I'm assuming your h/u has RCA pre outs??

You'll be able to fit the mid/bass in the standard position in the footwell (5" i think, but not sure!!) and the tweeter in the door pods (i presume you mean the factory ones behind the mirrors?). Then just tuck the crossover away somewhere! Very simple to wire up and will come with diagrams.

You say the fronts have the most impact yet they sound the worst in my car - when I fade to the back it sounds fuller. Weird.

Close - i say the fronts SHOULD have the most impact!!! Ideal soundstage is as if the artist is performing directly in front of you!! This is how it should sound when your done!!
It may sound 'fuller' at the moment when you fade to the back as the front speakers are presumably a bit knackered and a bit muffled down there!! Also, most factory fit systems have bigger rears (not sure about E30) which can sound 'fuller'.

Not tried cutting the footwell trim - never really noticed an issue with them yet and don't want people to be able to kick my speakers!!!! A custome build down there would be best, as you could angle the mid/bass more at the driver - but i'm not going to bother with that on my system (at the start at least!).

Don't know about the JBL's - never seen/heard them - but by all means use a set for rear fill if you like the sound of them, although i would definately opt for 2-ways at the front!!
Never really heard any of the JBL car audio stuff - but i have used some of their speakers and home and in nightclub use and can't fault them!!!!! Although i'm sure you'd here the difference between those and some more expensive units!!

[miniblob]

Hope this is helping and not just confusing you!!!! I'm just typing away in-between jobs here!!!

Any more thoughts on a sub?? A little 10 incher will really bring any system to life!!!! But then again, you could add one easily afterwards if you want further improvements!!

Also, what car do you have mate?? If your battery isn't in the boot, you'll also have to run a power cable there to feed the amp (assuming that will be boot mounted!!).

[kam325itouring]

if the budget is not a problem have a look at focal and audison!!!! or go all out genisis!!! focal are awesome if you go for the higher end...

[geo1400]

I've got Focal components up front (hide the crossovers under the centre console) and i've just got them wired up to the headunit and it's a HUGE improvemet. Focals are by far the best quality i've had. I've missed the sound deadening out though? Not really sure how that would work though.

Anyway, good luck with the install.

P.S go for a little sub... you owe it miniblob, all this hard work he' putting in!

[Royalratch]

Appreciate all the info guys. I just don't need that kind of bass.

Quality audio that doesn't make me tired on long trips is enough.

I'll go look at some bits this WE and let you know what went down.

[FlashBastd]

How do you get the wiring from the kick panels into the doors?

[Royalratch]

Doors? You mean for door builds?

You send the wire thorough the rubber boot near the hinge, where the central locking wiring goes.

[FlashBastd]

And it just pushes through without too much difficulty?

I was really just thinking of tweeters.

[Royalratch]

Take the door card off so you can see what you're doing. Follow the Central locking wiring. The Central locking relay is behind the front drivers side speaker which is where you would get a feed/crossover for the door tweeter I guess.

[Brianmoooore]

I was really just thinking of tweeters.

There's a twisted pair of wires factory fitted for the tweeters already there.

[FlashBastd]

What are these wires connected to? Don't you need a crossover or something? Or could I just hook up a pair of aftermarket tweeters?

We have only sold the Mondeo and gone back to the Touring as a daily driver to solve some short term cashflow probs, so I probably won't be using it for more than a year, and don't want to chuck loads of cash at it, but I would like to improve the sound a bit.

[Brianmoooore]

Unless you have factory fit tweeters they won't be connected to anything. They're just a twisted pair of wires from the area of the footwell speakers to the top left corner of the door panel.
OE footwell speakers for use with the mirror tweeters have a crossover built onto them.

[FlashBastd]

Oh good, so if I get some components, then I can use this wiring to connect door mounted tweeters. Excellent!

[Brianmoooore]

I use the wires for a pair of angled tweeter pods sitting over the doorcard window winder holes after converting E30s to electric front windows.

[miniblob]

I just don't need that kind of bass.

As i said before mate, it's not all about getting 'that kind of bass'!!!! Music is made from a lot of frequencies that won't be reproduced by the little speakers in the footwells!!
A small sub can be installed very subtly and as i said, if doing it for quality purposes you should never even know it's there!! It'll take the low frequencies away from your front speakers meaning that they won't have to struggle to reproduce them and will give you a much cleaner and clearer sound - a strained speaker will give you that headache!! It's usually the bass that makes a speaker distort, a long way before treble would!!

Up to you obviousely, but it would be well worth it imho!! Pop down to a local car hifi place and ask if they have any sq demo cars. Have a listen to a setup with a small sub, and one without. I think you'll be surprised!!

I'll stop hassling you about a sub now!!

Let us know what gear you decide on!!

[Royalratch]

Do appreciate the hint miniblob.

Where would a mini sub be situated - and how mini is mini?

Another thing, the footwell speakers are 130mm (5.25in) but I've heard you can put 160mm (6.3in) speakers in there - true? make much of a difference?

Also heard you shouldn't mount amps upside down so under the rear shelf in the boot is a no go but where else? Don't want to put it on the rear seat. Maybe be under a passenger chair?

Got 6mm power amp wiring/fuse, 4mm flat braid OFC speaker cable and decent quality RCA's. Still to decide on a 4-channel amp and speakers. So many out there...

Gotta throw some Dynamat around too.

[anton]

hi there, with a decent 8inch subwoofer in a small 21litre enclosure you can get upto 125db's.

i enter iasca sound quality competitions and used 8inch woofers for a long time.
jl audio 8w0 is quite good. can be built into a 0.9cu ft enclosure. which is very small.

the 125db i got was using the official audiocontrol meter that iasca uses. volume however has never been important to me. im going on leave from 15december to 15january and im going to be building a sound quality competition system into my 1989 e30 325i 4dr.

The Install:
Second skin audio spectrum spray & damplifier pro for sound deadening
nakamichi cd400 source unit
jl audio 10w1v2 subwoofer
component speakers upfront made up from KEF CODA 7 speakers(out of home hifi bookshelf speakers).

watch this space ;)

you must have a subwoofer. no two ways about it. dont confuse good quality sound quality comprising of sound covering all the frequencies in the audio spectrum to "common" council type bass that you can hear miles before you see the car..

regards
Anton

[Royalratch]

I dig what you're saying. Appreciate the knowledge and hi-fidelity approach.

I have Kef Q-Series floorstanders at home - nice call.

Sill mull over the woofer. I actually need every inch of my boot space most days but I know you guys are right.

[miniblob]

As Anton said, most 8 or even 10" woofers can be mounted in boxes of less than 1 cu ft - and remember, that doesn't have to be a cube, so it could be a very slim box!

Locating the kit is your call, depends how much time/effort/money you wanna put in really!!
You could make a false panel on one side of your boot which could allow space for the sub enclosure and the amp (depending on your choices/sizes!).
Again, another option for a false panel is against the seat backs, or you could have one on either side of the boot to make them slimmer (amp one side, sub the other).
A lot of people seriously into this would lose the spare wheel and put equipment in the wheel well (i'll be mounting some amps in mine!!).
Not sure that you'd want to cut the rear shelf but you could mount a wide slim box under there for the sub.
You could mount it below a rear seat or something but would be quite visible and if the amp gets hot it might burn peoples legs!!
I'm sure there's loads more places you could mount the stuff but that's just some ideas!!

As for putting the amp under the rear shelf - depends on the amp you buy. Some are designed to be mounted flat, others sideways, etc, etc. If it has fins (heatsink style) then they will dissipate heat, so if they are angled off to the side you would prob be ok. If you mounted the amp and the fins point straight down, obviously the heat will just go nowhere and just cook it!!
A lot of amps now come with a built in cooling fan, so might be ok to mount under the shelf.
Having said all this, it doesn't sound like your going to be playing this loud and pushing the amp hard, so it shouldn't get too hot anyway - again, depends on the amp!! At worst, you could buy a 12v fan from maplin for a few quid and that could be mounted to solve the problem!!
Pop into, or ring a couple of ICE shops and see what amps they would recommend to mount under a shelf!

As for the footwell speakers, i'm sure there was a thread on here not too long ago about doing that - bit of a pain iirc, but again, anything can be done if you have time/skills/money/motivation!!!! It should make a difference if you are buying decent speakers!!

[Royalratch]

Wouldn't bother with bigger rear speakers - just get some half decent coax speakers for a bit of rear fill if you really want to - a lot of people after sound quality wouldn't even bother with any rears, although i normally like to have something there!!!

So I'm going ahead with this and just wanted to clarify that the front speakers are the one's that make the most difference? I still have to say, when I fade to the rears it sound fuller and better which is why I'm a bit baffled with that comment but you guys know best.

I've got some JBL components that I'll wire up via a small 2 channel amp with some tasty speaker cable.

In the rear I have some JBL co-ax than can stay as is - maybe upgrade the wiring from that nasty .2 gauge E30 stuff.

Post pix soon.

[miniblob]

Fading to the rear, generally (in more modern cars especially) sounds fuller because rear speakers tend to be larger, as there is more space back there to play with. This means they could produce a much wider range of frequencies - normally a fair bit lower than the fronts.
Remember that speakers are not on a car manufacturers list of priorities!! They will supply very cheap, basic units.
Therefore, a good quality set of small front components should easily out perform the larger rears that may be in the car as standard.
Also (sorry to keep banging on, but,) a small sub would balance this out a lot - lower frequencies are not as directional so a sub in the boot, will mostly add to the sound, rather than moving the soundstage back, like the larger rear speakers would.

Soundstage should appear centrally in front of you. Therefore, the fronts are deffo the most important!!

By all means have some rears aswell and just try adjusting the fade fwd slightly on the h/u.
At the end of the day, it's what sounds good to you that matters!!

Hope that makes some sense - i know what i mean, but find it difficult to explain sometimes!!!!

[Royalratch]

I have just got a set of 5.25 / 13cm components for the front.

Was wondering, if I'm going for a proper overhaul, could I got 6" / 16cm down there?

Would be a case of drilling 4 x new holes into the sheet metal and I'm good to go?

Don't think the speakers would be any deeper...