Boost on a budget

[Andy_magic]

I'm in the process of building a 2.7 motor and got thinking about the FI route as an aside.

A mate of mine has the turbo and manifold from a 325TDS E36 sitting in his garage, I can probably get this very cheaply.

I have had a quick look around the net and found mentions of these manifolds being used on M20 engines, is this true. I understand that some of the mounting bolt holes need modding.

I realise an oil feed is needed, I would go the T piece from pressure sender route for this. Is it possible to route the oil return around the block to the oil return tube that goes from the inlet manifold to the sump.

I'm not looking at huge boost pressures, probably about 5-6psi.

Any thoughts guys?

[Turbo-Brown]

I'd say yes to most of that with the possible exception of the oil return which I don't think will have enough fall on it.

Other thing to consider is the engine management.

I know it's quite expensive but it's the key to getting the best out of any engine

[deano325t]

I did the "round the back of the block into the vent tube" and the car smoked like hell .. not much fall on it at all ..
it may work with a large enough pipe(i used 15mm copper)or a pump to draw it out..but straight down into the sump seems to be best bet..

Dean

[Andy_magic]

Cheers guys, the oil return makes sense. I remember reading about Freelander oil returns being used.

The engine managment side of things starts getting pricey.

If I was only running a small amount of boost would an add on managment system be necesary?

Also, where is everyone mounting intercoolers and what make/model of car are they from?

Cheers

[Turbo-Brown]

It is expensive but, you can take it from car to car if you want so it's not like ploughing money into the one car

I'd say it is necessary though. If you're running 5psi, you're probably looking at about a 34% power gain which means you need about 34% more fuel and a standard ECU probably won't supply that although there are ways around it.

The other thing is that roughly speaking you need to retard the ignition by about 1deg / psi so that's a 5degree retard. Not sure if you can set the standard ECU to do that, but even if you did, off boost performance would be lousy and the idle would be even weaker than it normally is.

[Andy_magic]

I see what your saying on the ignition timing front.

I hadn't even thought about it, I had a couple of ideas about the fuelling which were a bit rough and ready.

Knocking 5-6 degree's off the ignition timing would really screw the drivability when off boost.

I'll have to do some research into managment.

Thanks for your tips guys.

[buster]

thats why you can buy boost sensitive ignition retarders.
You can run 6-8 psi and standard ecu with an FMU and bigger injectors.

[Turbo-Brown]

Fair enough

If you've got a link to somewhere that sells these things it'd probably be helpful if you could post it in the Useful Links bit

[buster]

here you go;

boost retard

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/catalogue ... DE=LUMEMS6

extra injector control


http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/catalogue ... rom=search

Turbo engine management,allows to run 12 psi on standard comp ratio

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/catalogue ... rom=search

[e30_Turbo]

I'd been told we should be ok with std ecu running timing for now.....better check up on that then .
One good thing with the MS is that there is an add on called MS2, that allows you to map the timing too

Ignition Control with MegaSquirtII
To provide improved engine performance, better fuel economy, and reduced exhaust emissions, MegaSquirtII can control spark advance (timing), and this advance is programmable by the user.

For MegaSquirtII (as for most other ignition systems), the total ignition advance is based on three factors:


Total advance = initial advance + RPM based advance + vacuum advance
In particular, MegaSquirtII uses three variables to determine the total advance (called adv_deg).

The first is the relevant value from the engine speed and load table, called ign_table(rpm,kPa), combining the RPM based advance and vacuum advance in one 12x12 table.
The second is the trigger offset (adv_offset in the code), which appears to be roughly equivalent to the initial timing, but is really the difference between the trigger and next TDC in degrees (it is frequently used as the base timing in 'bypass mode' when the module is not connected to the MegaSquirt-II).
And the final value is the cold_adv_deg, an enhancement not available in many ignition systems, which is a 1x10 table based on engine coolant temperature (clt).
In the code, these factors are in tenths of a degree (1/10Ԛ°). These values must be positive, so adv_offset sets the minimum amount of advance possible.

I'm not 100% on what the above means but I take it as it can run timing and the additonal board is only $72 too!! (plus shipping)

[deano325t]

I use an SMT6 for fuelling and timing..
its a piggy back .. i.e it sits between your engine and ecu
you can alter fuelling by fooling the ecu (hmm i see a catchphrase developing...fueling by foolin)
you will need a laptop though ..unless you put your pc in the car

I.E Put some bigger injectors in or raise fuel pressure >>
Both would make it run poorly (over fuelling)..
then dial some voltage out from the afm..
if it puts 4.5volts out reduce it to 3.5volts
ecu sees 3.5 and puts less fuel in ..
this is what it looks like on laptop


it works for me and was alot cheaper than the stand alones i looked at
don`t think it was much more than Ԛ£200

can do the same kinda fooling with the ignition signal

intercooler is off a vectra ..not ideal cos exit and entry are on same side
just saw it in a srapyard and bought it


Hope you understood some of that

Dean

[Ant]

I considered that unit dude, I went for the MS purely because it ditches the AFM altogether and uses a full range TPS, MAP snesor IAT and /Baro + 02 sensor feedback, the big bonus is the software seems very intuative and thats always a result.

your AFM, areyou running it upstream of the turbos intake or plumbed inline so its boosted ?

looked @ both options and decided that the blow through was the best option. Just wondered really

As for the original boost bargain question... FMU and an oil pressure switch seem a good step in the right direction.

535 yellow injectors, 10:1 FMU, 6 psi pressure switch to fool the ECU into WOT settings via the TPS signal, rough and ready but I used a similar setup with a golf cold start injector on my S12 project with excellent results and no blow ups, on that I upped the boost from stock @ 6.5psi to 18, without an intercooler ! madness but it was a cheap relaible and friggin rapid machine til the rust bug ate it

Ate fuel though on max boost, I have a recurring nightmare of sub 6 mpg

whatever method is chosen you must use a fuel pressure regulator that ups fuel pressure under postive manifold pressure, the stock BMW unit works the opposite way and will lean your mix off as boost increases, not good peeps.

[Sjoerd320i]

I considered that unit dude, I went for the MS purely because it ditches the AFM altogether and uses a full range TPS, MAP snesor IAT and /Baro + 02 sensor feedback, the big bonus is the software seems very intuative and thats always a result.

your AFM, areyou running it upstream of the turbos intake or plumbed inline so its boosted ?

looked @ both options and decided that the blow through was the best option. Just wondered really

As for the original boost bargain question... FMU and an oil pressure switch seem a good step in the right direction.

535 yellow injectors, 10:1 FMU, 6 psi pressure switch to fool the ECU into WOT settings via the TPS signal, rough and ready but I used a similar setup with a golf cold start injector on my S12 project with excellent results and no blow ups, on that I upped the boost from stock @ 6.5psi to 18, without an intercooler ! madness but it was a cheap relaible and friggin rapid machine til the rust bug ate it

Ate fuel though on max boost, I have a recurring nightmare of sub 6 mpg

whatever method is chosen you must use a fuel pressure regulator that ups fuel pressure under postive manifold pressure, the stock BMW unit works the opposite way and will lean your mix off as boost increases, not good peeps.

how much did the ms set you back then? if you don't mind me asking

[deano325t]

I`m using a MAP sensor too ,
the afm thing was only to explain how it worked.
I had a maf on before i went turbo.so i never had AFM+TURBO


my first set up was turbo blow thru maf...worked great.
but maxed the voltage out on the maf sometimes .
and ran like a biatch if i blew a pipe off

just put the MAP on a couple of weeks ago, still setting it up

I did consider the extra injector too . cold start valve off an old 318i i had,
it fits where the vacuum pipe comes off the inlet manifold.
could be an option for people..

Dean

[Andy_magic]

Very interesting stuff indeed.

lots for me to read up on.

[Jon_Bmw]

With reference to can you use a 325 diesel manifold, then the answer is yes, have a look at the below photo.



Now to get that to fit it took about 5-7 hours solid with a file on a drill and lots of sweat. Basically enlarging the top holes and creating notches for the bottom studs. I also burnt out 3 drill bits, that cast iron is strong .

I have fitted 535 injectors already, and am using a vortech fmu to try and sort out the fueling,i have a nasty feeling its going to overfuel like a basturd though.

As regards to the turbo you have to take it apart into its three sections, and put them ack in the desired angles to 1)make it so the compressor housing isn't pointing at the suspension housing and 2) so that the oil feed is at 12 o clock and the return at 6 o clock. Once you've done this the wastegate then won't fit in the right place so a custom adapter plate is required, yet to do.

A nasty exhaust downpipe has yet to be created.


Overall a definate project if you have a second car to run about in! All Bmw's should be turbocharged, it'd be rude not to!

[deano325t]

Hi jon.

if your using a vortech fmu , would you need the 535 injecors too ?
doesn`t it raise fuel pressure as boost rises ?

[Turbo-Brown]

here you go;

Turbo engine management,allows to run 12 psi on standard comp ratio

what did you post that for?!

I'm severely tempted now

[Jon_Bmw]

Hi jon.

if your using a vortech fmu , would you need the 535 injecors too ?
doesn`t it raise fuel pressure as boost rises ?

Well i don't think that the m20 ones would let enough fuel through to be honest, people say that they go lean above 5500rpm anyway. I'm still yet to think of a way to get it to idle better though.

[deano325t]

I`ve got regular m20 injectors and they`re good enough for 5 psi (not been higher yet)
I have raised the fuel pressure.. I dont know by how much though..

there`s an adjustment screw on the afm for idle mixture isn`t there?

Dean

P.S a bit of vroom ptsssccchhhh to spur you all on

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kkfmfelix/pics/llamatron.avi

[Jon_Bmw]

I`ve got regular m20 injectors and they`re good enough for 5 psi (not been higher yet)
I have raised the fuel pressure.. I dont know by how much though..

there`s an adjustment screw on the afm for idle mixture isn`t there?

Dean

P.S a bit of vroom ptsssccchhhh to spur you all on

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kkfmfelix/pics/llamatron.avi

Loving the video, please god tell me you wern't holding the video camera....top man!! Its hard to get an idea of how fast stuff is moving and being half blind i can't read the speedo.lol. I am definatly liking the dump valve, what a noise

Well thats the sort of boost i'm going to be looking at, so maybe i don't need the 535 injectors then I shall have to see if it mega overfuels first once i've got it all setup, i'm currently trying to find some mandrel bent exhaust( 180 degrees) so if anyone knows who sells it, please tell me.

If you adjust the idle screw on the AFM will this tell the ECU to lower fuel by tricking it into thinking less air is going through than what actually is, i'm not to great when it comes to electronics.

So deano what setup are you running, are you doing a DIY guide, or was it all setup by a garage or something?? Piccys!!

P.S how have you raised the fuel pressure?

[Turbo-Brown]

I've been puzzling over the injector thing for a while.

Finally I realised that injectors from pug 1.9GTi or Mi16 should be perfect for my application in that they can flow enough for about 45bhp / cylinder @ 3bar which means they should be fine for 270bhp odd

Dean, how did you raise the fuel pressure? Was it one of those adjustable things or did you crush the standard FPR in a vice?

Also, were you holding the camera in your mouth!?

Must admit I hadn't thought that 5psi would make so much noise through a dump valve

[deano325t]

I should have held it in my mouth it might have been better

that was at 4psi . I just thought i`d do a video of the BOV under the bridge for the turbo geeks
hard to hold camera and accell hard..

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kkfmfelix/pics/pants.avi



used this for fuel pressure Alex


did you get my cheque yet dood?

Dean

[325iconv]

Dean you shound have got Scott to sit behind your seat with the
camera,but then again after his attempts at filming me from your car or should I say nsr light
Anyhow if you want when I come up Ill hold it behind your seat for a better vid maybe Tues and Ill bring my camera aswell for some