M40 camshaft for FI?

[Yaninnya]

Anyone knows who is making the M40 engine camshaft for turbo conversion? Nothing crazy just for max 1.0 bar (near 15 psi).
Jan

[Jhonno]

standard one will be ok..

either that or one with more lift but same duration

[Yaninnya]

standard one will be ok..

I know that standard can be used but it is not the best for FI.

either that or one with more lift but same duration

The problem is that the design of M40 head is very specific. You just can't copy another cam.
Jan

[CHRISP]

Standard one will be ok..
just make sure it a good one,
put a new in mine fine

[Yaninnya]

standard one will be ok..

I know that standard can be used but it is not the best for FI.

Standard one will be ok..

Mate, I really don't want to be rude or offencive, but I asked for cam for FI not "is the standard cam will be ok". I have enough my own experience to know that it will work but to get the best results you need different cam. Developing the cam is time consuming and costly and there is no reason to do something if it was done before. That is why I'm asking.
One more time - no ofencive at all.
Jan

[toby]

Yaninnya if you say you know the standard cam is not the best, can you explain why, with the benefit of your experience of course?

What would be better about a non-standard cam, and how would it differ?

Cheers
Toby

[Yaninnya]

Yaninnya if you say you know the standard cam is not the best, can you explain why, with the benefit of your experience of course?

First of all I'm not a mastermind of engine tuning or even close to it. During the years as I know more and more I just realised each time how little it is.
Because I dont know the specs of std cam it is not so easy to say what will be better. Most probably a little bit more lift on exhaust and more on inlet, also longer duration on inlet (but most probably more after BDC) but I can't be sure at all without specification of standard cam. Also It is only based on my experience and cam be all wrong. What is working well on one engine can be a disaster on other.

What would be better about a non-standard cam, and how would it differ?

Earler boost, higher and more smooth torque on lower revs, higher power with the same boost, holding the power after the point of max power, etc.
The right cam can improve a lot, the bad one can ruine the engine characteristic. That why it is not so simple to develope.
Jan

[Andyboy]

The standard 316i cam will work perfectly well. That's why a 745i Turbo uses.......a standard normally aspirated 3.2 - 3.5 cam.
That's why a Saab 900 Turbo uses a standard cam. Why an Esprit Turbo uses a standard cam. Why all the Turbo Technics conversions uses the standard cam. Get the picture?

But if you've got upwards of $3000 then have a cam company design and machine a few cams, try each one on the dyno and see what works best. You'll need to tell them about which specially made low compression pistons you are using too.

Or do what everyone else does and use the standard camshaft which is perfectly good enough for a simple, low tech 200 bhp engine.

[Yaninnya]

The standard 316i cam will work perfectly well. That's why a 745i Turbo uses.......a standard normally aspirated 3.2 - 3.5 cam.
That's why a Saab 900 Turbo uses a standard cam. Why an Esprit Turbo uses a standard cam. Why all the Turbo Technics conversions uses the standard cam. Get the picture?
But if you've got upwards of $3000 then have a cam company design and machine a few cams, try each one on the dyno and see what works best. You'll need to tell them about which specially made low compression pistons you are using too.
Or do what everyone else does and use the standard camshaft which is perfectly good enough for a simple, low tech 200 bhp engine.

No offence, but did you read the whole topic? It looks that you didn't.
You are saying about economic, I'm saying about technic. Two absolutely different subjects. Economic is always the compromise between cost and result.
Why companies like Piper, Kent, Newman or Cat Cams are existing? Because standard cams are the best? I think you can answer that question by yourself.
I know enough to realise that standard cam will work quite well. I don't know enough to define the specs of the cam which will be working the best.
There was the company which was turbochargeing M40 engine and IIRC in stage III they where changing the cam. I can't find any info about it and I hope that someone remember that.
Jan

[CHRISP]

Jan no offence taken
it mite be a good idear to PM ANT he knows alote about Cams and Turboing, he is a rep for Cat cams.
chris

[Jon_Bmw]

The standard 316i cam will work perfectly well. That's why a 745i Turbo uses.......a standard normally aspirated 3.2 - 3.5 cam.
That's why a Saab 900 Turbo uses a standard cam. Why an Esprit Turbo uses a standard cam. Why all the Turbo Technics conversions uses the standard cam. Get the picture?
But if you've got upwards of $3000 then have a cam company design and machine a few cams, try each one on the dyno and see what works best. You'll need to tell them about which specially made low compression pistons you are using too.
Or do what everyone else does and use the standard camshaft which is perfectly good enough for a simple, low tech 200 bhp engine.

No offence, but did you read the whole topic? It looks that you didn't.
You are saying about economic, I'm saying about technic. Two absolutely different subjects. Economic is always the compromise between cost and result.
Why companies like Piper, Kent, Newman or Cat Cams are existing? Because standard cams are the best? I think you can answer that question by yourself.
I know enough to realise that standard cam will work quite well. I don't know enough to define the specs of the cam which will be working the best.
There was the company which was turbochargeing M40 engine and IIRC in stage III they where changing the cam. I can't find any info about it and I hope that someone remember that.
Jan

I think the confusion may have come from what your initial post said. You said that you don't want anything to crazy which kind of indicated you are not spunking 10 big ones into the engine and hence the suggestion from several people that the standard cam will do the job. You also go on to mention about 'stage 3,' a company that changes it at 'this' point, again stage 3 sounds a bit more serious than Nothing crazy just for max 1.0 bar (near 15 psi)."

Yes the standard cam may not be as good but in terms of £ per gain I can't see the benefit of a new cam. Lets be honest if money wasn't an issue you'd just get a newer already turbocharged engine and put that in. Or is that too sensible?

[Andyboy]

The standard 316i cam will work perfectly well. That's why a 745i Turbo uses.......a standard normally aspirated 3.2 - 3.5 cam.
That's why a Saab 900 Turbo uses a standard cam. Why an Esprit Turbo uses a standard cam. Why all the Turbo Technics conversions uses the standard cam. Get the picture?
But if you've got upwards of $3000 then have a cam company design and machine a few cams, try each one on the dyno and see what works best. You'll need to tell them about which specially made low compression pistons you are using too.
Or do what everyone else does and use the standard camshaft which is perfectly good enough for a simple, low tech 200 bhp engine.

No offence, but did you read the whole topic? It looks that you didn't.
You are saying about economic, I'm saying about technic. Two absolutely different subjects. Economic is always the compromise between cost and result.
Why companies like Piper, Kent, Newman or Cat Cams are existing? Because standard cams are the best? I think you can answer that question by yourself.
I know enough to realise that standard cam will work quite well. I don't know enough to define the specs of the cam which will be working the best.
There was the company which was turbochargeing M40 engine and IIRC in stage III they where changing the cam. I can't find any info about it and I hope that someone remember that.
Jan

'No offence', but normally aspirated engines are vastly, hugely more responsive to cam changes than those with forced induction which is where the camshaft industry came from. Please tell me, in your infinite knowledge, why a 745i uses a standard camshaft? Go on - tell!! I'm sure you know more than BMW!
Stage 111 would of course involve special low compression pistons - where did you get yours from? What kind of power limit are you setting for the cast iron crank?
By the way, the two firms who turboed the M40 were Bickel and Kahn. Neither changed the cam because it doesn't have enough overlap to warrant changing.
What spec cam are you after? More lift? Less overlap? More duration?

[Yaninnya]

'No offence',

Firs of all I really appreciate that after the first "heat" you edit your post. It is not common thing.

but normally aspirated engines are vastly, hugely more responsive to cam changes than those with forced induction which is where the camshaft industry came from.

More sensitive yes but in general na engines are more sensible to any change in spec. Or maybe better say it is more easy to ruin the engine performance. English is not my first language so I'm not sure is it clear.

Please tell me, in your infinite knowledge, why a 745i uses a standard camshaft? Go on - tell!! I'm sure you know more than BMW!

I repeat: I'm not a engine guru or whatever. I wasn't there when they developed this engine (you are saying about 3.2 or 3.4?). I reply in different question: why you can buy gpn cams for fi engines? And because I don't want any nasty discusions I will not ask you "I'm sure you know more than camshaft producers". It is not the argument.

Stage 111 would of course involve special low compression pistons - where did you get yours from? What kind of power limit are you setting for the cast iron crank?

First - any Stage is only the name of level of modyfication - it means nothing. Second - you can lower the CR not only by change the pistons, increase of combustion chamber capacity can be made even by fitting different valves. And the engine which I have in mind has forged crank.

By the way, the two firms who turboed the M40 were Bickel and Kahn. Neither changed the cam because it doesn't have enough overlap to warrant changing.

Or I don't uderstand or there is no logic. When you are going to change the cam you can increase or decrease overlap as you want.

What spec cam are you after? More lift? Less overlap? More duration?

As I wrote before I really don't know. I can only guess:
"Most probably a little bit more lift on exhaust and more on inlet, also longer duration on inlet (but most probably more after BDC) but I can't be sure at all without specification of standard cam. Also It is only based on my experience and can be all wrong."
That's my words. I used to do on engine all that things which I know that I can do on the highest level. If I'm not sure (and that are cams i.e.) I want to let it to do someome who is really good on it.
Jan

[Andyboy]

'I'm not an expert".

You don't say...................

You STILL have not told us your compression ratio. What exhaust you are using? What sized valves?

You're using standard pistons and valves? Why, in that case THE STANDARD CAMSHAFT is perfect.

You're running bigger valves and a 7:1 compression? In that case you need to take your engine specs to a cam manufacturer and have one custom made. To effect a real improvement, you will need to try various different profiles with the engine on a dyno. You'll be spending many, many thousands, but I'm sure it will be worth it to get that extra 5-10 bhp.

Or you could just buy a decent engine to fit a turbo to - I think you'll agree that anybody who spends £1000+ on a custom cam for an M40 is some kind of idiot?



Forums are full of those who talk about turbo conversions and never do anything. I think it would be best if you post some photos of your work so far and give us some indication of engine spec before we go any further. I talk to dreamers all day, I don't need another.

[Gunni]

All this time spent on talking about turboiing a M40 has been a waste.
Why not run 1.2bar instead of wasting time in finding a spending money on a cam that will allow you to run
1bar and get the same results as stock cam at 1.2bar.

1bar is nothing..
You could easily raise the compression to 10.5
use appropriatly sized turbo, solid intercooling, aftermarket engine management, properly sized downpipe and turbo manifold and run 10.5:1 compression.

Yaninnya you´r obviously thinking like an engineer who likes to tinker,
but sometimes time is wasted on tinkering or thinking instead of doing things,

I´d say build a stock 10psi M40 and see where that leaves you.

[Yaninnya]

'I'm not an expert".
You don't say...................

Very precious digression.

You STILL have not told us your compression ratio. What exhaust you are using? What sized valves?
You're using standard pistons and valves? Why, in that case THE STANDARD CAMSHAFT is perfect.
You're running bigger valves and a 7:1 compression? In that case you need to take your engine specs to a cam manufacturer and have one custom made. To effect a real improvement, you will need to try various different profiles with the engine on a dyno. You'll be spending many, many thousands, but I'm sure it will be worth it to get that extra 5-10 bhp.

Sorry mate, but you don't know what you are talking about. Or your experiences with fi engines are very basic. I.e. can you tell me why standard YB engine has better characteristic with BD10 inlet cam (and of course new maps) than with std cam and remapping? Because Cosworth didn't know what cam is good for the engine? I don't think so. And that is something which I know from my own experience. I don't need to prove anything.
BTW. The std cam is not perfect even for std na engine (because of many reasons which car producer must obay, emissions, wear, bad fuel, etc.).

Or you could just buy a decent engine to fit a turbo to - I think you'll agree that anybody who spends £1000+ on a custom cam for an M40 is some kind of idiot?:D

I asked the question not because I want to modyfy M40. It is waste of money in my opinion. And if not for M40 you shoud know right now why.
BTW. You are very fast with opinions about other people. If you don't know everything do not try to call idiot anyone. I'm 37 years old and I know what I'm saying. Belive me.

Forums are full of those who talk about turbo conversions and never do anything. I think it would be best if you post some photos of your work so far and give us some indication of engine spec before we go any further. I talk to dreamers all day, I don't need another.

Nice... First of all as I told, I'm not working on M40 because it is waste of time in my opinion. The info about which I asked is usefull for some different engine. If you know a little about BMW engines you shoud know now about which engine I'm talking about. If you think that I'm asking about cam during the work on engine not before - I'm not working that way. It is not my style. I always get the informations before the work. And just because I don't want to be another person about which you can say "dreamer" I will not say to much about the whole car. When it will be ready or one of the stages will be ready (it is too expencive for me to do everything at once) then I can post any photos. Most probably the first stage will be ready at the end of the year and then you are welcome to comment my work.
Jan
P.S. If my english is funny sometimes - sorry - english is not my first language.