Help please - M30 won't turn over now!

[SPADGE]

Hi folks
After yesterdays triumph of getting the M30 started and running well today has been a real damp squid
It all started this morning ok when i fired the engine up just for a few seconds and all was well.
I then fitted the radiator and did some plumbing, went to buy some anti-freeze and started to fill up the coolant.
I then went to start the car to get a bit of temperature into it and it wouldn't turn-over Tried the usual of making sure the alarm/imobilizer was off and it was but still nothing! No clicks or signs of life at the starter at all I couldn't find anything adrift and there wouldn't have been anyway as nothing electrical had been touched since yesterday when all was well.
So i thought maybe the starter has died and changed it (bastard job) with another i had here.
Still nothing
Been at it all day and i just can't get any life at the starter!
All the earths and battery etc are good so i'm at a loss as to what has gone wrong

[Gunni]

what is the voltage in the battery when your trying to start?
Also are you getting any thing from the starter at all? 12v to the starter feed, black/yellow wire when your starting

[gareth]

the (replaced) starter can be tested with a battery and some jump leads, just in case you have 2 dead ones. just stand on it before you buzz 12v on the terminals as they have a habbit of running away!

the ignition switch could be duff? easy swap if you have a spare somewhere

i assume you've tried another battery? anything less than 11.5V on our E34 wouldn't even make the solenoid go clunk.

all earth straps ok?

if i was a bit closer i'd pop round for a shufty. often a second pair of eyes will spot the very annoyingly obvious things that cause all of the trouble!!!

[SPADGE]

Gareth
Like i said already its not the battery or the starter and the earth straps are fine.
There is nothing obvious or i would have seen it in the last 6 hours trying to sort it out!
I can only imagine that perhaps the alarm/imobilizer has gone wrong as nothing has been touched that could possibly cause this problem
Cheers though mate!

[SPADGE]

A couple of pics to show how the bay looks thus far
Shame it won't run now

[DRIFTBOY]

Looking good dude!

If the first pic is recent, there's your problem!

The battery isn't connected!

(That's a joke, I'm sure it is)!

I can't think what else could cause sudden eletrical failure, apart from, asa Gareth said, a dodgy ignition swith.
The plastic lugs that hold them on can break and then the ignition key doesn't reach it anymore!

Good luck getting it sorted, I'll let you know if I have any ideas!

[SPADGE]

Looking good dude!

If the first pic is recent, there's your problem!

The battery isn't connected!

(That's a joke, I'm sure it is)!

I can't think what else could cause sudden eletrical failure, apart from, asa Gareth said, a dodgy ignition swith.
The plastic lugs that hold them on can break and then the ignition key doesn't reach it anymore!

Good luck getting it sorted, I'll let you know if I have any ideas!

I just knew someone would point out that the battery isn't connected in the pics lol
I disconnected it tonight after calling it a day mate

[SPADGE]

the (replaced) starter can be tested with a battery and some jump leads, just in case you have 2 dead ones. just stand on it before you buzz 12v on the terminals as they have a habbit of running away!

Gareth which 2 terminals are we talking about here? There are 4 in total 2 small ones with 8mm and 10mm nuts holding the wires on and 2 bigger 13mm ones one of which has the live to it and the other bridging starter and solenoid.
Cheers Spadge..

[Andy335Touring]

Do you have a big wire from your alternator to your starter ?

[SPADGE]

Do you have a big wire from your alternator to your starter ?

Yes mate it sits on the large terminal that the battery live also goes to.

[Brianmoooore]

The starter circuit is fairly simple, so it shouldn't take a lot of sorting!
Am I right in thinking that the key has no effect on the starter motor whatsoever?

[SPADGE]

The starter circuit is fairly simple, so it shouldn't take a lot of sorting!
Am I right in thinking that the key has no effect on the starter motor whatsoever?

Yes Brian that is correct
It was all working perfectly and then suddenly dead as a doe doe
One thing i did notice this afternoon that may help was when i plugged in my dashboard so i could see if the ignition lights were coming on, the oil and charge lights came on a bit dimmer than the others, handbrake etc, and then when i turned the key all the way they went off (just them not the others)even thought the car hadn't turned over This could also have been happening when it was running but i didn't have the dash pod in so wouldn't know to be honest.

[mattG]

have you tried running a jumper leads directly to the starter motor

[Brianmoooore]

First test: Open up the diagnostic socket and short together pins 11 and 14. This should engage the starter motor without the ignition being on.
If this doesn't work, connect a 12V5W lamp (E30 front indicator repeater assembly) from any clean bright metalwork on the engine to the battery + terminal. Lamp should light.
Then connect it from the engine to the battery negative terminal and try the starter. Lamp should not light.

[SPADGE]

First test: Open up the diagnostic socket and short together pins 11 and 14. This should engage the starter motor without the ignition being on.
If this doesn't work, connect a 12V5W lamp (E30 front indicator repeater assembly) from any clean bright metalwork on the engine to the battery + terminal. Lamp should light.
Then connect it from the engine to the battery negative terminal and try the starter. Lamp should not light.

Right i just tried the above

Firstly when shorting pins 11+14 all that happened was the two relays on the engine loom near the ecu plug clicked.
Connected a bulb to the + and an earth on the engine and it lit.
Connected the same bulb to - and an engine earth and it didn't light when i tried the ignition.
Cheers Spadge..

[Brianmoooore]

Connect lamp to 14 and battery negative (should light). With lamp still connected and lit, connect 14 to 11 again.Does lamp stay lit?

[SPADGE]

Connect lamp to 14 and battery negative (should light). With lamp still connected and lit, connect 14 to 11 again.Does lamp stay lit?

Not going outside again tonight the neighbours and wife already think i've lost my marbles lol!
I'll check tomorrow and post as soon as possible with the outcome.
Just out of interest if i connect a positive to the main + terminal on my spare starter and earth it should it spin over? Just tried the one in the garage that i took off earlier with some jump leads and a fully charged battery and it did nothing

Forget i just asked that because if it did work that way the starter would be continually spinning when wired-up to the car

[gareth]

the (replaced) starter can be tested with a battery and some jump leads, just in case you have 2 dead ones. just stand on it before you buzz 12v on the terminals as they have a habbit of running away!

Gareth which 2 terminals are we talking about here? There are 4 in total 2 small ones with 8mm and 10mm nuts holding the wires on and 2 bigger 13mm ones one of which has the live to it and the other bridging starter and solenoid.
Cheers Spadge..

to test the motor alone, earth the body and connect positive to the fat wire running into the starter from the solenoid. this should fire it up.

if it does, swap the positive to the fat input terminal on the solenoid and run a link wire to the small switching terminal to try it through the solenoid.

i can't visualise the exact terminal sizes etc as it's been a while since i've seen one of them but it should be fairly obvious . i could tell from a pic of your spare one if it's readily to hand?

[Brianmoooore]

run a link wire to the small switching terminal to try it through the solenoid.

The terminal with the 10mm nut. 8mm one is where the black/green unloader relay wire connects.

[SPADGE]

the (replaced) starter can be tested with a battery and some jump leads, just in case you have 2 dead ones. just stand on it before you buzz 12v on the terminals as they have a habbit of running away!

Gareth which 2 terminals are we talking about here? There are 4 in total 2 small ones with 8mm and 10mm nuts holding the wires on and 2 bigger 13mm ones one of which has the live to it and the other bridging starter and solenoid.
Cheers Spadge..

to test the motor alone, earth the body and connect positive to the fat wire running into the starter from the solenoid. this should fire it up.

if it does, swap the positive to the fat input terminal on the solenoid and run a link wire to the small switching terminal to try it through the solenoid.

i can't visualise the exact terminal sizes etc as it's been a while since i've seen one of them but it should be fairly obvious . i could tell from a pic of your spare one if it's readily to hand?

Cheers again Gareth i'll have a look at it again tomorrow as i've just about had enough for today
I still don't believe it the starter as the one i replaced it with came off the engine i took out of the Sport just last week and that started fine!
Cheers Spadge...

[SPADGE]

Having said i won't do it tonight i just went into the garage and tried the starter i removed today.
It didn't work immediatly but did after connecting the wire a few times indicating it may have been jammed?
It worked both through the solenoid and by bypassing it!
Is it possible that the one i fitted today could by some fluke also be jammed? It has been sitting in an engine exposed to the elements for the last week
I'll try the same procedure tomorrow with the one on the car and see what happens.
Cheers again guys

[fugazi33]

Hey Spadge i've been saying this for ages but I can come round tomorrow to give you a hand if you want, I've got a multimeter if you need it, what time are you about?

[SPADGE]

Hey Spadge i've been saying this for ages but I can come round tomorrow to give you a hand if you want, I've got a multimeter if you need it, what time are you about?

I'll believe it when i see it mate
I'm outside all day tomorrow so get round here and bring your meter too
Don't bring the touring please as the neighbours already think i'm starting a German undertakers from here
Cheers Spadge...

[fugazi33]

I'll be there no worries! It's gonna have to be the Touring or a Focus, do you want a Ford darkening your doorstep?

[SPADGE]

I'll be there no worries! It's gonna have to be the Touring or a Focus, do you want a Ford darkening your doorstep?

No thanks mate bring the hearse and we'll add it to the fleet

[fugazi33]

Ha, thought you might say that, to it's credit though the Focus is a 2ltr 2 door in white, looks kinda old skool Ford Motorsportish (if you squint)

I should think I'll have to park in Kiln Farm as your street must be full of all your motors!

[SPADGE]

Ha, thought you might say that, to it's credit though the Focus is a 2ltr 2 door in white, looks kinda old skool Ford Motorsportish (if you squint)

I should think I'll have to park in Kiln Farm as your street must be full of all your motors!

At present there are 4 tourers and 1 e34 mate
Just bought another 325 2 door off ebay tonight so its going to get worse lol

[SPADGE]

All sorted guys thanks for your help

[gooner1]

So was it thr starter Spadge?

[gareth]

although it looke like you've now sorted it, sometimes giving the solenoid a good tap helps unstick them. pugs always do this! 1/50 starts need a clout with a thwacking stick!

[SPADGE]

It would appear that i somehow managed to have 2 sticky starters
That and a combination of a battery that was only putting out 11.7 volts even though it is new
Gareth you were right mate kind of

[gareth]

almost always the most simple thing that you look at and rule out immediately!!!! at least it's sorted!