M30 throttle bodies

Discuss general engine, turbo and supercharger conversions in this section

Moderator: martauto

Toby_Unna
Boost Junkie
Posts: 2183
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Sheffield

Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:19 pm

Been fiddling with these for a week now, so I thought I'd start a thread.

They're E28 M5 throttles complete with plenum chamber. I'm not expecting dramatic gains in power or sound with these as my car has a turbo, but hopefully better response - and they do look cool too :D

Downside is they may be a bit large, which will mean fuel dropout at low revs/idle and accordingly heavy fuel consumption - and probably less than regular pressure signal to the MegaSquirt which might cause problems :?

no pics yet (tomorrow hopefully) but so far the bodies are dummy mounted to the M30 head using an aluminium adaptor plate made up by Andy335touring before deciding to use a large twin TB instead.

these fit fine, but making the plenum fit has been a total nightmare. I already have the small diameter Golf mk2 brake servo fitted, but have needed all manner of mods just to get the plenum dummy-fitted. large cut out on rear corner (to be welded once i'm sure it's large enough), top heater pipe cut back and rotated 180 degrees, servo moved towards fusebox by elongating mount holes (as per Brian Moore's M50 swap) and rotated 180 degrees to get vacuum fitting clear of plenum. E34 oil filter housing removed (upside down E28 version required), dipstick tube bent. The plenum is so large it was pushing against the brake reservoir let alone the servo, so that's off too - maybe find a narrower one at the scrappy, maybe a remote one.

current state of play is TBs and plenum temporarily bolted in place and clear of everything, charge piping between intercooler and plenum in place. To do list is, er, long. get plenum cutout welded up, finish ports in adapter plate (the TB ports are a different chape to the ones in the M30 head), throttle cable bracket, seal up all manner of tappings and holes, sort out pressure signal for MegaSquirt/boost gauge/wastegate/dump valve, lots of other things I can't remember...

I guess this lot won't make that much difference on the turbo, but I reckon it might one day end up on a hot N/A M30 build. one day 8)
Image
Jon_Bmw
Dangerous when thinking
Dangerous when thinking
Posts: 7606
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Salisbury

Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:26 pm

Sweet toby, get some pictures rolling in. Sure you haven't got room to compound charge it too? you seem to have managed to fit an awful lot of stuff in that engine bay... Is it bigger than my ex e30 engine bay or something :o
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham
Contact:

Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:55 pm

Glad they are getting used rather than gathering dust ! :)

Until Toby get some proper pics up heres an old one of mine

Image
Turbo-Brown
Boost Junkie
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Aldershot, Hants
Contact:

Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:26 pm

I reckon you'll see a bit of a gain for the same amount of boost with those Toby :D

Reckon you might have to run an Alpha-N and speed-density blend though (as I've got) to stop the MAP sensor going mad giving you drivablility problems as you say.

Get some piccies up dude! :D
325i Twin Turbo (until 10am 01/12/07 :( )

www.air-in.co.uk free M20 exhaust and inlet flange
Toby_Unna
Boost Junkie
Posts: 2183
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Sheffield

Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:09 pm

Turbo-Brown wrote:I reckon you'll see a bit of a gain for the same amount of boost with those Toby :D

Reckon you might have to run an Alpha-N and speed-density blend though (as I've got) to stop the MAP sensor going mad giving you drivablility problems as you say.

Get some piccies up dude! :D
i hope not :cry:

what exactly is Alpha-N anyway :D
Image
Turbo-Brown
Boost Junkie
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Aldershot, Hants
Contact:

Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:21 pm

Alpha-N is a method of estimating how much air's going into the engine based on throttle angle and crank speed so for a given combination throttle angle(opening) and revs you assume that X amount of air is entering the engine and add Y amount of fuel accordingly.

It's just as much of a guess as Speed-Density really, where manifold pressure is used instead of throttle position.

However, you can't use pure Alpha-N with a turbocharged engine as for a given combination of throttle angle and engine speed, you could have absolutely ANY amount of boost so that's a bit of a disadvantage.

The other side to the coin though is that the vacuum in the runners fluctuates quite a lot, especially with ITBs so not using vacuum to determine load (i.e. running Alpha-N) is a distinct advantage as the load signal (throttle angle) is quite consistant and stable.

Another advantage is that it's pretty easy to detect acceleration / snap throttle openings running Alpha-N.
325i Twin Turbo (until 10am 01/12/07 :( )

www.air-in.co.uk free M20 exhaust and inlet flange
gareth
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 11009
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: hastings, east sussex

Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:33 pm

could those not be shortened a bit (cut and weld) to reduce clearance problems?

looks sweet though! :cool:
Sole founder of Fe2O3-12V it's a lifestyle
Image
LSD rebuilding / modification services provided, PM for details
User avatar
ant2
E30 Zone Newbie
E30 Zone Newbie
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:00 pm

Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:11 am

how hard is the adapter plate to get made ? i want to run this with open throttles on an n/a setup
Ant
Retired Team Member
Retired Team Member
Posts: 10496
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:00 pm
Location: PD+E dept :D
Contact:

Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:45 am

Reckon you might have to run an Alpha-N and speed-density blend though (as I've got) to stop the MAP sensor going mad giving you drivablility problems as you say.
Toby is already on blended Alpha N dude
Product Development and Endurance for Delphi.

Original performance chips, original works not unlicensed copies :D Email FTW
Dan318-is
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 8006
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Surrey/London

Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:50 am

Toby, read some of your articles in ppc today, mightily impressed. i think i speak for us all when i say i await in drooling anticipation!!
Silverfang
E30 Zone Regular
E30 Zone Regular
Posts: 937
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Northampton

Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:00 am

Indeed, the turbo conversion's looking good, can't wait for the next issue of PPC, no doubt someone will be borrowing it for a look eh Dan? :lol:
BMW and Opel, both RWD, both german, both good fun
http://www.clockservicing.co.uk/ For any clock repairs try here.
Turbo-Brown
Boost Junkie
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Aldershot, Hants
Contact:

Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:08 am

Ant wrote:
Reckon you might have to run an Alpha-N and speed-density blend though (as I've got) to stop the MAP sensor going mad giving you drivablility problems as you say.
Toby is already on blended Alpha N dude
Sweet, most of the way there already then :D

Still gonna need a remap though :(
325i Twin Turbo (until 10am 01/12/07 :( )

www.air-in.co.uk free M20 exhaust and inlet flange
Toby_Unna
Boost Junkie
Posts: 2183
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Sheffield

Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:09 am

Well at least i'm not totally daft Ant... I knew there was TPS and MAP fitted, just not too sure what the MS does with the input :D

Gareth - not much scope to shorten, there's all the injector mount stuff on the other side which you need. it would be possible to cut the M30 inlet flanges off and the M5 TB flanges off and weld the M30 ones on, but firstly the injector mounts would be difficult looking at where they are on the M30 manifold, and secondly the six TBs would have to be perfectly in line which would be tricky - otherwise the throttle would stick.

ant2 - running just the TBs and trumpets should mean you have enough clearance to use an adaptor plate without too much trouble. Andy might be able to help more as he's got this one to its present state. but it's a large expensive slab of aly (20mm thick and it needs to be because some of the M30 studs clash with the TB mount holes and therefore need recessed bolts instead of studs) and there's a lot of porting needed in the plate to match the TBs to the head. it would sound gorgeous though...

found the SD card now, pics later 8)
Image
User avatar
ant2
E30 Zone Newbie
E30 Zone Newbie
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:00 pm

Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:19 am

yeh thats the idea, i allready have a nice lairy cam for it (295 digree) and some open throrttles should make it go alot better
Toby_Unna
Boost Junkie
Posts: 2183
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Sheffield

Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:37 am

pics so far...

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

open trumpets :drool:

Image

butchered plenum

Image

Alex - yes it'll need remapping (the fueling needed some work before i started with these tbh, decided better to leave it until i'd finished fiddling :D)
Image
DRIFTBOY
E30 Zone Addict
E30 Zone Addict
Posts: 3131
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: Kent

Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:44 am

Toby, - that is automotive porn! :drool: :cool:
Jeremy Clarkson wrote:...but it drives the front wheels. Theee wrooong wheels!
da4x4turbo wrote:I raced a vivaro on the motorway once in a 318is.... and lost!!!
User avatar
Gunni
E30 Zone Addict
E30 Zone Addict
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Oxford

Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:48 am

That is going to be so crazy
With great challenges comes great engineering.

Gunni
@ 2012 VEMS group buy !!
Dan318-is
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 8006
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Surrey/London

Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:55 am

dude :drool:
e30_Turbo
Boost Junkie
Posts: 3158
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: East Anglia

Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:58 am

Looking good Toby :cool:
Image
Silverfang
E30 Zone Regular
E30 Zone Regular
Posts: 937
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Northampton

Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:37 pm

Now that should make some interesting (and pant wettingly good) sounds :lol:
BMW and Opel, both RWD, both german, both good fun
http://www.clockservicing.co.uk/ For any clock repairs try here.
Turbo-Brown
Boost Junkie
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Aldershot, Hants
Contact:

Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:55 pm

decided better to leave it until i'd finished fiddling
:lol: there's aaaaaalways something new to add and then fiddle with! :D
325i Twin Turbo (until 10am 01/12/07 :( )

www.air-in.co.uk free M20 exhaust and inlet flange
User avatar
Gunni
E30 Zone Addict
E30 Zone Addict
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Oxford

Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:04 pm

You also need to clean up your engine bay, itԚ´s mighty nasty lookin
With great challenges comes great engineering.

Gunni
@ 2012 VEMS group buy !!
e30_Turbo
Boost Junkie
Posts: 3158
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: East Anglia

Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:08 pm

Gunni wrote:You also need to clean up your engine bay, itԚ´s mighty nasty lookin
Hey Gunni,

WTF is that comment for?

If you can't be positive or constructive don't bother posting.

He's fitting M5 TB's to a M30, can't you atleast find a decent question to ask?
Image
User avatar
Gunni
E30 Zone Addict
E30 Zone Addict
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Oxford

Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:42 pm

What?
DonԚ´t take that so badly, I already commented on it about it would be crazy.

This clean the engine bay comment was ment as a light joke,
R E L A X
With great challenges comes great engineering.

Gunni
@ 2012 VEMS group buy !!
User avatar
adamS
E30 Zone Regular
E30 Zone Regular
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Washington near Newcastle

Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:05 pm

Toby you are mad. But I love it :cool:
Jon_Bmw
Dangerous when thinking
Dangerous when thinking
Posts: 7606
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Salisbury

Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:19 pm

Gunni would you like the engine bay to look nice or the car to go fast. I know which i'd go for. Adding bits from halfords doesn't count either.

Great start Toby :D

Are you getting the pleneum TIG welded up by a company like andy did with his throttle body?
User avatar
Gunni
E30 Zone Addict
E30 Zone Addict
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Oxford

Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:35 pm

comԚ´on
working in a clean enviroment just makes the job easier and more fun,
With great challenges comes great engineering.

Gunni
@ 2012 VEMS group buy !!
glenn
Engine Transplant Services
Engine Transplant Services
Posts: 2198
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: blackwood, south wales

Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:33 pm

:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
a man after my own heart :twisted:
the never ending search for more power
good work, as ever mate
another thread i'll be keeping my eye on
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham
Contact:

Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:04 pm

Cool, have you done the recessed holes for the allen bolts ?

Hows the porting coming on ?
Demlotcrew
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 13329
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:00 pm
Location: East Anglia

Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:07 pm

Very cool!

welcome to the club

Andrew
Toby_Unna
Boost Junkie
Posts: 2183
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Sheffield

Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:24 pm

Demlotcrew wrote:
welcome to the club

Andrew
Is that a 4-cylinder club Andrew? I think I'm ok thanks...

Gunni... We're using the car in a regular feature in a mag called Scrapyard Turbo. If i clean it up (not that i would be remotely interested in doing so anyway), I'd probably get sacked.

your points are taken as intended (not very seriously!)
Image
User avatar
buster
E30 Zone Addict
E30 Zone Addict
Posts: 3779
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Near middlesbrough,Teesside

Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:03 am

they look smart Toby but i think the hassle of the clearance issue arround the back of the plenum may not be worth the chew on.
They'd be a great upgrade on a N/A engine using MS running open trumpets. :twisted:
I dont think the bit you have cut out will cause any problems because of the FI though.Have you moved the servo yet ?
I had to move mine over half an inch and extend the actuater lever on the brake mech inside where it joins to the servo.
I think andy should have used these on his with open trumpets and you should have used what andy is doing with the big ass throttle body as it would suit the turbo install better and no servo/plenum messing and Andy whouldn't need the plenum so no servo messing there.
Anyway,good luck :D
Demlotcrew
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 13329
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:00 pm
Location: East Anglia

Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:16 am

Toby_Unna wrote:Is that a 4-cylinder club Andrew? I think I'm ok thanks...
:roll:

Theres nothing wrong with four cylinders, some of us dont want drag strip 10 min out of the door breakdowns.

Andrew
Toby_Unna
Boost Junkie
Posts: 2183
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Sheffield

Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:08 pm

buster wrote:Have you moved the servo yet ?
I had to move mine over half an inch and extend the actuater lever on the brake mech inside where it joins to the servo.
I wondered about extending that arm, how did you do it, weld an extension on?

I think that's the way forward, mine's only moved 4-5mm atm. I take it you drilled four new mount holes? what did you do about the large central hole in the bulkhead that the servo face mates to?

Andy actually bought the plenum for his NA, decent cold air feed and a proper filter instead of foam sock filters is a better idea than open trumpets despite what they would sound like :twisted:
Image
glenn
Engine Transplant Services
Engine Transplant Services
Posts: 2198
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: blackwood, south wales

Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:07 pm

Toby_Unna wrote: what did you do about the large central hole in the bulkhead that the servo face mates to?
toby,
i used a hole saw on a drill, for that hole, when we altered dips bulkhead for the V12
Post Reply