Best way to 300BHP? - V8 in an E30? M52B28 - Not enough?!

[RotE30]

I would like to up the power significantly on my E30 for as little money as possible with reletively little engine swapping knowledge - woulnt we all, and yes i know i sound 'council' as hell!

However, I do know my way around cars and am a qualified engineer etc etc.

I had planned to swap in a M52B28, but coming from the 325i's 170bhp going to 210bhp wont exactly shatter any records I would not have thought?
The only real plus points are the relitive ease of the swap and the easy availability of parts.

To go beyond 250bhp is much more appealing, i have been looking at the M60 V8's, I know they are all generally autos and finding a manual gearbox can be a nightmare and I know you have to fabricate your own mounts... but the cost of old v8 cars is seriously good and the power from the v8s is insane? anybody got experience of a v8 e30 - i know its been done a lot, but actually which models, 3L, 4L, 4.4L etc? I assume the Mseries motors are mega money

whats the MPG like with the V8's - i know i am probably lining myself up for a fall here but if its sub 20, I would just hate it.

The dream combo would be a 330d, one of the new powerful diesels thats really good on fuel etc - as far as i am aware this has NEVER been done?

[ross_jsy]

after big power, just build an m50b28, while its stripped use arp head bolts and an MLS head gasket and run some boost through.

supposedly good for 500hp on the standard internals. would say thats the "cheapest" way to get big power.

A-tech quoted me 5k to get an m20 to 350bhp to give you a rough idea

[e21Jason]

e36 m3 engine

tried and tested if a bit pricey

[RotE30]

seriously pricey the m3 engine, gearbox etc.
Any links to a decent turbo m50b28 setup with costs etc? might work out more than the m3 i would guess?

[Motorhole]

Just go Chevy LS1 ok it's not BMW...but it's light, cheap (expect around £4.5k used with engine and 6-speed Tremec T56 manual 'box from the states) and makes anywhere between 330bhp and 390bhp stock. A 6-litre LS2 will make over 400bhp...plus they are tuneable (read 500bhp+ with programmable management, the right cams and exhaust/intake combination), reliable and easy to service.

Oh and 5th and 6th on the T56 are both long overdrives. I worked out that with a 3.91 diff, 16" wheels with the tyres I want it will be chugging along at about 1800rpm in 6th at 70mph - read good fuel economy. I have read of folk averaging 25-30mpg from these on long steady runs.

That's my plan anyway...

[RotE30]

My budget is 3k tops. great suggestion though

[ross_jsy]

thought about spending that on suspension set up to get it handling spot on?

if you do all the work yourself, and search out bargains i have seen a few turbo projects that cost around the grand mark.

just curious as to why 300hp though? at the end of the day, its just a number, get building and make something thats quick to you

[Motorhole]

haha yeah fair point ross I neglected to mention the cash I have to put aside for a proper 5-stud conversion, wheels, coilovers, cage and stitch welding!

[e21Jason]

3k would get a 300bhp m10 turbo and buy adecent 318 doner

Jason

[toby]

As you are going to do the upgrading work yourself it would possibly be best to choose the option which suits your skills, experience or preference best. If you are good at welding, for example, you could make a nice turbo manifold for your M20B25. Soldering? build a standalone ECU yourself. Power for your pound is often found with turbo.

I'm not suggesting you 'can't do' anything else but the 'best way' is largely dependant on what you're 'best at' or which option instinctively 'feels right' to get tinkering with.

[FormerMember]

I would like to up the power significantly on my E30 for as little money as possible with reletively little engine swapping knowledge - woulnt we all, and yes i know i sound 'council' as hell!

Those three things just don't fit together.
Have you thought, that when you almost double the power you need to update brakes and suspension also. And those should be the starting point, power comes last.

To go beyond 250bhp is much more appealing, i have been looking at the M60 V8's, I know they are all generally autos and finding a manual gearbox can be a nightmare and I know you have to fabricate your own mounts... but the cost of old v8 cars is seriously good and the power from the v8s is insane? anybody got experience of a v8 e30 - i know its been done a lot, but actually which models, 3L, 4L, 4.4L etc? I assume the Mseries motors are mega money

My budget is 3k tops. great suggestion though

Yes V8's are cheap to come buy, but swapping them in is a big task and costs a lot. So forget them, there're many other better options available for you, like M50 / M30 + tuning, or S38 / S50.
S50 is easy swap and gives you reliable power + good MPG, so that’s the engine I’d choose if you want 300hp..

For such a small budget i'd update suspension & brakes and then turbo the M20 with megasquirt etc. You can get reliable 300hp by using M50 pistons & rods and good head gasket.

The dream combo would be a 330d, one of the new powerful diesels thats really good on fuel etc - as far as i am aware this has NEVER been done?

Well, if you fancy diesels swap M51 in there. 200hp comes with sensible tuning and it returns good MPG..

[Gunni]

3k self built turbo system is the way .
way easiest.

[RotE30]

Thanks for all your somments, much welcomed, Jonsku you're thread has been the inspiration to this daft, open ended thread.
I have replaced all the bushes and bought some decent suspsension, and I am doing the brakes this weekend, I can weld and machine myself and have access to a full PCB and software department at work. so with favours have everything at hand apart from my lowly salary as a newly qualified design engineer.

By the sounds of it you all suggest either the M50B28 with cam ecu etc - which i am familiar with having been planning it for some time... or a m10/m20 turbo system which i need to start looking at now
"turbo the M20 with megasquirt etc. You can get reliable 300hp by using M50 pistons & rods and good head gasket." sounds great, this needs some investigation.

Thank you for your comments, the reason i offered my budget is because i know it just rules out so many options straight away. 300bhp - well, it is just a number, but its enough to think more about just chucking in an M50B28 - i would hate to fit it and then think 'hmmm this extra 25% power is a bit of a let down

[oldroydsr4]

This way.


http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=163562

[Gunni]

"turbo the M20 with megasquirt etc. You can get reliable 300hp by using M50 pistons & rods and good head gasket."

Stay away from this advice.

Here is the fact.
A 8.8:1 compression M20B25 with ARP´s will run 400hp+ without anything else added (bar clutch and such of course) on a normal paper head gasket.

A 9.7:1 + MLS and ARP M20B25 will run the same.

These are my experiences with turbocharging M20´s,

A M20 turbo with about 350-380hp outruns everything else suggested without even trying.
Even at the lowest boost of say 7psi it would leave all the others.

[FormerMember]

"turbo the M20 with megasquirt etc. You can get reliable 300hp by using M50 pistons & rods and good head gasket."

Stay away from this advice.

Here is the fact.
A 8.8:1 compression M20B25 with ARP´s will run 400hp+ without anything else added (bar clutch and such of course) on a normal paper head gasket.

A 9.7:1 + MLS and ARP M20B25 will run the same.

Well, question is how long it will last? M50 rods are much stronger and lighter than M20 rods and so are the pistons. Both can be bought for little money (like 100£ / set) so i see no reason why not to upgrade those when you've to open the engine anyways?

When you turbo the car the most important thing is to get proper ECU and _good tuning_. There's nothing else that will break your engine quicker than bad fuel/ignition - map..

A M20 turbo with about 350-380hp outruns everything else suggested without even trying.
Even at the lowest boost of say 7psi it would leave all the others.

Well, yes does that in straight line, but when you compare S50 and turboed M20 (350hp) i'd say that the S50 will outrun the turbo anywhere else..

[Gunni]

If you remove them you need piston rings and bearings cause it´s a do it while it´s open thing.
These rods work fine if you tune it fine. As long as you don´t run above something like 450lbs of torque you´ll be fine. There is absolutely no reason to buy M50 bits when you already have the M20 bits in there and they don´t even have to come out.

I don´t see how you can come to the conclusion that a less powerful car outruns another one.
Bends or no bends.

The M20 turbo will have ALOT stronger low end and high end,. So at all times better acceleration .
Even a 350hp M20 turbo and a S50B32 (let´s imagine 350hp)
The M20 would outrun the S50 car.

It´s more about the driver then the engine. So your assumption is not fair.

A E30 owner on this forum with a healthy S38B38 in his car has been shocked by the power difference between his car and a M20 turbo 2.5 car. A car running around 360-370hp.
I have also owned a S50 E30 on a number of occasions and it´s not even close.

[FormerMember]

If you remove them you need piston rings and bearings cause it´s a do it while it´s open thing.
These rods work fine if you tune it fine. As long as you don´t run above something like 450lbs of torque you´ll be fine. There is absolutely no reason to buy M50 bits when you already have the M20 bits in there and they don´t even have to come out.

Yea well, it's all about where you draw the line.. Anyways, i'd change those when the engine is open so when you want more boost (latest after one summer, trust me ) you don't have to make big upgrades..

I don´t see how you can come to the conclusion that a less powerful car outruns another one.
Bends or no bends.

It´s more about the driver then the engine. So your assumption is not fair.

I just wanted to point out, that S50 is much "easier" engine to drive on the track than turboed M20, because the power-curve is smoother etc etc.. But as you said, the speed depends mostly on the driver and no matter which one the engine is, you can still drive very fast

[DanThe]

Gunni, are you going to bring one of these turbo M20 cars to santa pod this year? Would be good to see one go down the 1/4 mile

[RotE30]

Gunni sounds like the boy on these turbo upgardes - can you recommend any links to project builds or kit lists?
Would like to get a draft shopping list together. Thank you very much.

[Gunni]

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7

read and read alot.

If you have any questions after LOTS of reading. Then ask away.
Please don´t expect me or others to spoon feed everybody everytime
the question of turbocharging comes up.

[RotE30]

I asked for the reading material, I dont expect to be spoon fed? I have now got loads of useful advice to get me going with the reading, bizarre comment? Thanks though.

[FormerMember]

If you want to see what the real big power turboed BMW engines are made of, check www.pure-pf.com / forum / projekt ;)

[Gunni]

I asked for the reading material, I dont expect to be spoon fed? I have now got loads of useful advice to get me going with the reading, bizarre comment? Thanks though.

It´s not aimed at you. The thing is that these things get asked alot on this forum. And even when people have been directed at the information source so they can read up themselves they still just want to ask the questions that would have been answered by reading.