1st post, management question - anyone using emulators?

[Ti22]

Hello!

Getting parts together for my m20B25 turbo build, and thinking about management.

Looking on E30tech and Bimmerforums, some people are playing with the chip emulators to map their cars (WAR and ostrich2 with TunerPro) links here:



http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh ... ?t=1195992

I'm looking at getting an Ostrich2 emulator and have downloaded tunerpro, and can't see a problem with this approach. Anyone got any actual experience on this side of the pond?

Ta,

James.

[GeoffBob]

Hello James,

No experience with those exact products, but sounds like a great way to map your own motronic. Sounds particularly useful a) with a modified engine (with unique VE, thus rendering off the shelf chips no good) and b) where you don't want to go to the extent of installing a complete aftermarket ECU.

Of course you'll still need the tools to be able to map it properly, but at least you'll have the freedom to do so, which most E30 drivers don't.

[Gunni]

There is no reason not to go this way if you get the tools.

If I was required to tune M1.3 ecu´s on the dyno then this is the way I would do it.

[Ti22]

Thanks for the quick responses!

I think I may have thought of a problem. There is no way of mapping for boost that I can think of, so it's never going to as good as a system that can accomodate for that.

Just wondering how much of a problem that is so long as you remap for each boost setting. The problem areas I can think of are the conditions where the turbo is not providing the boost the map is for - i.e. when it's spooling up. Full throttle and on boost should be a repeatable condition and the one that this system can fuel/ time correctly for. That's surely the condition that if you get it wrong is most likely to grenade the engine as well.

[Gunni]

It´s not going to be usable.
I´ve always had to use piggybacks with manifold pressure input to mess with the AFM signal based on MAP.

Only chance to make this work is to fit a MAF or god forbid a AFM that flows enough.

The only way to "map" for boost is a fuel pressure regulator that raises fuel pressure in a non linear curve to the intake manifold pressure.

The only way to make motronic 1.3 work under boost is to re-write the software based around a MAP input. This is not going to happen.

I can´t recommend this to anybody thinking about turboing their vehicle.

[Ti22]

I know you can use this to run on an MAF.. using the same methodology, could you use the voltage from a MAP to run it??!?

At the moment, I'm thinking this is a halfway house between an RRFPR (cartech, bell etc) and MS.

For my low boost/ power targets (7psi/ 250hp, using a wideband lambda), I'm thinking i'll still go with this initially.

[Gunni]

how the ecu works is that it´s making calculations based on the AFM signal and air temp, how it interprets this if it where a map sensor signal I´m not to sure, but most claim it´s not usable.

You could rather just get a piggyback and a RRFPR to be honest.
It will tune things well enough for your goals and the tuning will be DEAD EASY.

[Ti22]

Thanks for your experience - much appreciated.

Any recommendations of UK vendors for RRFPR's and wideband lambda sensors/ guages?

[Gunni]

Not sure on the RRFPR, but the VEMS gauge I really like.

It is solid as a rock. With a really nice display, can be used as a datalogger (map, rpm, lambda, 0-5v)
http://shop.vems.hu/catalog/product_inf ... cts_id=101

It is in my oppinion a great tool.

[GeoffBob]

I think I may have thought of a problem. There is no way of mapping for boost that I can think of, so it's never going to as good as a system that can accommodate for that.

Eeek I didn't read your first post properly. Not a viable option for a turbo'd engine IMO. I assumed you were looking to re-map a NA engine with mods (cams, exhaust, intake etc).

Might be made to work if you can map it to the signal from a MAF sensor (possibly off a Vauxhall/Opel or similar). Not a good idea with a AFM. Won't work with a MAP sensor since ECU's that use a MAP sensor also use an air temp sensor (along with RPM) to convert the MAP signal to a "representation" of air flow. A MAP sensor on its own does not work like an AFM or MAF and in no way gives a signal that represents the air flowing into the engine.

If you plan to keep your injectors and introduce only minimal boost then a rising rate FPR, as Gunni says, is an option, although I am not a fan of these (maybe I just struggle with them). Since you are talking about the capability to do a complete re-map I would prefer to increase the size of the injectors and run at a constant pressure (as specified for the injectors).

But honestly, if you plan to go the turbo route best consider a standalone ECU as the Motronic really wasn’t designed with FI in mind. Modern after-market ECU’s generally include extra inputs and outputs for controlling all sorts of useful things on a turbo engine, such as the wastegate, turbo timer (at switch-off), water injection (if ever required) etc.

[Gunni]

The M1.3 has a air temp sensor input that it uses to calculate MASS.
As the AFM is a volume metering device.

But even though, I think a map sensor setup would require some rewritting of the firmware in there.
I know somebody has removed all the various fuel maps and combined them into a larger map,
this some rewritting and a map sensor input on the AFM wire should be able to turn the m1.3 into map sensor device. but it´s not worth it for the hassle.

[Ti22]

Hmm. Think I might go RRFPR for now @ low boost, then get MS before going higher. I'm not into reinventing the wheel.. just yet!

That VEMS guage looks perfect - thanks.

Does anyone in the UK build MS boards into a 173 ecubox? or who is the preferred vendor in the states? (I've had a quote from life is Kaos on e30 tech)

Thanks for the replies guys.

[e21Jason]

Hi

http://wiki.diyefi.co.uk/

Jason

[Ti22]

Thanks, anyone using these kits?

Looks good, and cheaper than I'd have thought!

[GeoffBob]

Hmm. Think I might go RRFPR for now @ low boost, then get MS before going higher. I'm not into reinventing the wheel.. just yet!

A rising rate FPR should see you good for up to around 7 or 8 psi of boost above 1-bar barometric pressure. Don't underestimate the complexity of installing one though, they typically have two adjustments (offset and rate-of-rise) that should (ideally) be adjusted on a dyno while scrutinizing an AFR guage.

[Ti22]

Yep, thanks bob. I've downloaded the instructions for the begi and read 3-4 writeups on the tuning of them. Looks simple enough, but I'm mainly concerned about the cold running, looks like there is no way to get it to run right until it's warm.

As I see it for the price of an RRFPR and WB lambda guage, I can have an MS PnP system anyway. The ultimate flexibility, throwing away of the air flow meter etc make this a good looking option! (I like the idea of datalogging for tuning as well - this is how I've done bikes before)

But the bloke in the link above looks like he's not doing it anymore.. so either order from the states or build myself or ?!?!?

[Gunni]

Well you are going to need a WB metering device no matter what you do.
The nice thing about the VEMS one is you´ll have it in your view when driving.
You can go with a VEMS ecu that only needs the WB sensor and no external controller.

You shouldn´t really be boosting anyway until it´s warm. So that´s not really an issue.

There are only a handfull of PnP M20 ecu´s around, and this one is by far the best one.
http://www.fartstrup.dk/index.asp
The designed and built it to intergrate into the E30 without any wiring needed and complete functionality of all the original systems. More expensive then the MS though.

I might be able to get you an assembled PnP M20 megasquirt ecu from DIYAutotune.

[Ti22]

If you can get one from DIY i'd be interested. He said to me he's not making them anymore as he has other business interests now..

[Gunni]

You have PM.

[Ti22]

so do you..