2.8 or 3.5 ?????

[Robbs]

selling my mx5 soon and thinking of getting another e30 as the only car i've ever missed is my 327i, so i think im gonna buy a 318is and swap the engine, i've looked into the 3.5 before and seen the how to guide on here but im considering maybe chucking in a 2.8 on this one as they're newer engines and have similer torque (which is all i care about), so what i wish to know is.......

1) is there a similer how to guide, if not what parts would i need

2) is it more or less work than the 3.5 ?

3) is it much more expensive to do ? how much will all the bits i need roughly cost ????

4) so which would you do 2.8 or 3.5 ? and why ?

many thanks

[Speedtouch]

The Zone Wiki gives advice on 2.7/2.8 builds.

[Robbs]

i dont wanna build a 2.8 i want to swap for a m52 from an e36

[stonesie]

Have a look in the M50/52 section and there is a monster of a thread in there ''M50 developments''.


What i did was to read through it all, coppy/pasteing the bits i thought most relavent into works... then decided to keep it M20

[leeparkes]

i dont wanna build a 2.8 i want to swap for a m52 from an e36

Sounds like you've answered your own question.

[//Rocky]

i dont wanna build a 2.8 i want to swap for a m52 from an e36

Sounds like you've answered your own question.

Lol

[gareth]

i've looked into the 3.5 before and seen the how to guide on here but im considering maybe chucking in a 2.8 on this one as they're newer engines and have similer torque (which is all i care about)

my standard M30B35 with just a 1mm skim off the head (10:1 compression) has 238lb.ft of torque, and 220bhp.
200lb.ft is reached at about 1800RPM

what's the torque like on a M52?

[FormerMember]

maybe chucking in a 2.8 on this one as they're newer engines and have similer torque

No, they don't have similar torque. M30 is all about low-rev Torque whereas M52 is more middle-rev torque. The M30 grunt down low is just something totally different than in M52. S50 has same kind of Power down low than M30, though.

2) is it more or less work than the 3.5 ?

3) is it much more expensive to do ? how much will all the bits i need roughly cost ????

x5x engines are straight bolt-on with E34 oilpan & -pump, all you have to do is to sort out the minor things. M52B28 costs 1-2 times more than M30.

4) so which would you do 2.8 or 3.5 ? and why ?

I'd do M52B28 or M54B30 because M30 is done already

Seriously, M50B25 with some mods would be my choice because it is much cheaper and can be tuned to quite easily to 250hp / 300Nm with sensible money.

On the other hand, S50 would be the way to go, even though it's a bit more expensive it gives you so much more power that it's andgood option anyways.

[Gunni]

I´d like to see one example of a 250hp M50B25 tuned for sensible money.

100hp/liter coming from 76hp/liter does NOT get gained with only sensible money.

[FormerMember]

I´d like to see one example of a 250hp M50B25 tuned for sensible money.

100hp/liter coming from 76hp/liter does NOT get gained with only sensible money.

2.8 crankshaft, Schrick intake cam, old intake cam to exhaust cam, megasquirt and some tuning => 265hp

Other example; cam swap and megasquirt => 240hp.

Still the total cost is less than in S50 swap, the M50 is really quite a good engine when driven by programmable ECU

[Jhonno]

On the other hand, S50 would be the way to go, even though it's a bit more expensive it gives you so much more power that it's andgood option anyways.

S50 is much more than a bit more expensive.. 10x more expensive at least

[DanThe]

I´d like to see one example of a 250hp M50B25 tuned for sensible money.

100hp/liter coming from 76hp/liter does NOT get gained with only sensible money.

2.8 crankshaft, Schrick intake cam, old intake cam to exhaust cam, megasquirt and some tuning => 265hp

This means rebuilding the engine though which will soon soak up £1000, schrick cams are not sensible money either

[FormerMember]

On the other hand, S50 would be the way to go, even though it's a bit more expensive it gives you so much more power that it's andgood option anyways.

S50 is much more than a bit more expensive.. 10x more expensive at least

No way 10x more expensive.. Full M50B25 running gear with all the bits is around 1000€, whereas S50 is around 2,5-3,5k€. At least that's the situation here in Finland.

[FormerMember]

I´d like to see one example of a 250hp M50B25 tuned for sensible money.

100hp/liter coming from 76hp/liter does NOT get gained with only sensible money.

2.8 crankshaft, Schrick intake cam, old intake cam to exhaust cam, megasquirt and some tuning => 265hp

This means rebuilding the engine though which will soon soak up £1000, schrick cams are not sensible money either

Well, we've different idea of "sensible" money, but only buying megasquirt and doing some tuning gets you to 230hp range. Adding S50 cam and 2.8 crankshaft (500€) gets you 30hp further. I wouldn't call that expensive..

[Jhonno]

On the other hand, S50 would be the way to go, even though it's a bit more expensive it gives you so much more power that it's andgood option anyways.

S50 is much more than a bit more expensive.. 10x more expensive at least

No way 10x more expensive.. Full M50B25 running gear with all the bits is around 1000€, whereas S50 is around 2,5-3,5k€. At least that's the situation here in Finland.

Here M50 swap costs about £500.. S50 costs about 6k..

[Jhonno]

2.8 crankshaft, Schrick intake cam, old intake cam to exhaust cam, megasquirt and some tuning => 265hp

This means rebuilding the engine though which will soon soak up £1000, schrick cams are not sensible money either

Well, we've different idea of "sensible" money, but only buying megasquirt and doing some tuning gets you to 230hp range. Adding S50 cam and 2.8 crankshaft (500€) gets you 30hp further. I wouldn't call that expensive..

S50 cams don't work.. S52 cams are the ones used

[FormerMember]

Here M50 swap costs about £500.. S50 costs about 6k..

Well, i checked autotrader and there're plenty of E36 M3's for sale for 3000£. Take the engine & gearbox and sell the rest, you'll end up quite even so the total cost is more like 500-1000£..

[FormerMember]

S50 cams don't work.. S52 cams are the ones used

Yes i mixed it up with M52, but anyways my point was that you don't have to buy 1000€ / 2 cams when you can buy only one (used) cam and swap the old intake cam to exhaust cam..

[E30BeemerLad]

Here M50 swap costs about £500.. S50 costs about 6k..

Well, i checked autotrader and there're plenty of E36 M3's for sale for 3000£. Take the engine & gearbox and sell the rest, you'll end up quite even so the total cost is more like 500-1000£..

This is precisely what everyone thinks who is considering starting off with this swap, "it'll never cost that much" etc.

Everyone on here who has done this swap DIY has spent over £5k in the end

[Jhonno]

Here M50 swap costs about £500.. S50 costs about 6k..

Well, i checked autotrader and there're plenty of E36 M3's for sale for 3000£. Take the engine & gearbox and sell the rest, you'll end up quite even so the total cost is more like 500-1000£..

HAHAHAHA!

Considering the exhaust manifold is £1100 on it's own I think you are well off the mark

I have a mate who did exactly as you said, broke an E36 M3 for its engine, and it still cost him about 5k

[Gunni]

2.8 crankshaft, Schrick intake cam, old intake cam to exhaust cam, megasquirt and some tuning => 265hp

This means rebuilding the engine though which will soon soak up £1000, schrick cams are not sensible money either

Well, we've different idea of "sensible" money, but only buying megasquirt and doing some tuning gets you to 230hp range. Adding S50 cam and 2.8 crankshaft (500€) gets you 30hp further. I wouldn't call that expensive..

It´s like to see again ONE example of a standard M50 making 230hp from just tuning the fuel and ignition.

Your numbers are far fetched at best.

[UweM3]

Here M50 swap costs about £500.. S50 costs about 6k..

Well, i checked autotrader and there're plenty of E36 M3's for sale for 3000£. Take the engine & gearbox and sell the rest, you'll end up quite even so the total cost is more like 500-1000£..

HAHAHAHA!

Considering the exhaust manifold is £1100 on it's own I think you are well off the mark

I have a mate who did exactly as you said, broke an E36 M3 for its engine, and it still cost him about 5k

keep in mind, Finland = LHD!

[FormerMember]

Here M50 swap costs about £500.. S50 costs about 6k..

Well, i checked autotrader and there're plenty of E36 M3's for sale for 3000£. Take the engine & gearbox and sell the rest, you'll end up quite even so the total cost is more like 500-1000£..

This is precisely what everyone thinks who is considering starting off with this swap, "it'll never cost that much" etc.

Everyone on here who has done this swap DIY has spent over £5k in the end

I've done both M30 and M60 swaps all by myself to my cabrio so i know that the total cost is something else than just the engine.

Nevertheless, my point is that S50 does NOT cost 5 or 10 times more than M50. You have to do same updates to the car, were you swapping M50 or S50 in there so those costs can be forgotten now.

[FormerMember]

Here M50 swap costs about £500.. S50 costs about 6k..

Well, i checked autotrader and there're plenty of E36 M3's for sale for 3000£. Take the engine & gearbox and sell the rest, you'll end up quite even so the total cost is more like 500-1000£..

HAHAHAHA!

Considering the exhaust manifold is £1100 on it's own I think you are well off the mark

I have a mate who did exactly as you said, broke an E36 M3 for its engine, and it still cost him about 5k

How in hell you manage to spend 1100£ to a manifold? Of course you can spend 10 000£ for example to a valve cover made of gold but we're considering swaps made by enthusiasts, not swaps that are done only with money (and no skills by the owner) in a specialist shop? Right?

I made exhaust manifolds to my V8 cabrio with a help of my friend, all the parts cost less than 200€ and there're 2 more cylinders than in S50...

[FormerMember]

It´s like to see again ONE example of a standard M50 making 230hp from just tuning the fuel and ignition.

Your numbers are far fetched at best.

I'd like to show you but i'm afraid you can't see the dyno graphs before you log on to www.btcf.fi/forum

Here 184kW and Here 192kW.

M50 with 2.8 crankshaft & megasquirt, one doing 184kW with original injectors and other one 192kW with S50 injectors.

I've seen 230hp megasquirt powered M50B25, tried to search dynographs and the project-thread but didn't find it. I'll post it when i find it.

[FormerMember]

Anyways, i don't want to argue does this and that engine make 240 or 250hp, or does this and that cost 3000€ or 4000€. Some basic facts should be dealt with, though.

-S50 swap is not 10x more expensive than M50 swap, but 1-2 times more expensive.
-M50 can be pushed to 260hp with stroking, camming and tuning for 1000€.

I think i've proven both of those points, feel free to prove me wrong

[Gunni]

There is just no way you can gain 40hp from computer mods alone on a standard M50.

And the difference between a 193hp 2.8 and 259hp can not be a fuel and ignition tuning only.
That´s just the way it is. There have to be more details missing that gain 66hp on a 2.8.

[Jhonno]

Well, i checked autotrader and there're plenty of E36 M3's for sale for 3000£. Take the engine & gearbox and sell the rest, you'll end up quite even so the total cost is more like 500-1000£..

HAHAHAHA!

Considering the exhaust manifold is £1100 on it's own I think you are well off the mark

I have a mate who did exactly as you said, broke an E36 M3 for its engine, and it still cost him about 5k

How in hell you manage to spend 1100£ to a manifold? Of course you can spend 10 000£ for example to a valve cover made of gold but we're considering swaps made by enthusiasts, not swaps that are done only with money (and no skills by the owner) in a specialist shop? Right?

I made exhaust manifolds to my V8 cabrio with a help of my friend, all the parts cost less than 200€ and there're 2 more cylinders than in S50...

I am afraid you are just very wrong on the costs front.. I have done BOTH swaps, and helped with 2 more S50's.

A cobbled together manifold is fine for a relatively understressed V8, but the S50 is sensitive to the exhaust manifold, and it is easy to lose a lot of power.. The standard manifold is a work of art, and a lot of exhaust places wont even touch the work.. The only proven manifold out there is the btb, which time and again has made stock or above power, and is £1100. Therefore it is not a luxury, more a necessity. Then you still have the rest of the exhaust to make.. The two swaps are the same in as far as engine mounts and gearbox mounts and prop/diff, the rest is very different.

LHD is easier to retain the stock manifold and save plenty of money, but it is still much more expensive than an M50

[baptie0]

HAHAHAHA!

Considering the exhaust manifold is £1100 on it's own I think you are well off the mark

I have a mate who did exactly as you said, broke an E36 M3 for its engine, and it still cost him about 5k

How in hell you manage to spend 1100£ to a manifold? Of course you can spend 10 000£ for example to a valve cover made of gold but we're considering swaps made by enthusiasts, not swaps that are done only with money (and no skills by the owner) in a specialist shop? Right?

I made exhaust manifolds to my V8 cabrio with a help of my friend, all the parts cost less than 200€ and there're 2 more cylinders than in S50...

I am afraid you are just very wrong on the costs front.. I have done BOTH swaps, and helped with 2 more S50's.

A cobbled together manifold is fine for a relatively understressed V8, but the S50 is sensitive to the exhaust manifold, and it is easy to lose a lot of power.. The standard manifold is a work of art, and a lot of exhaust places wont even touch the work.. The only proven manifold out there is the btb, which time and again has made stock or above power, and is £1100. Therefore it is not a luxury, more a necessity. Then you still have the rest of the exhaust to make.. The two swaps are the same in as far as engine mounts and gearbox mounts and prop/diff, the rest is very different.

LHD is easier to retain the stock manifold and save plenty of money, but it is still much more expensive than an M50

Blah, blah, blah.

Jhonno, dont you ever stop whining about your btb exhaust manifold?

[FormerMember]

There is just no way you can gain 40hp from computer mods alone on a standard M50.

And the difference between a 193hp 2.8 and 259hp can not be a fuel and ignition tuning only.
That´s just the way it is. There have to be more details missing that gain 66hp on a 2.8.

The 2.8 makes +200hp in real life as stock, just go try and dyno one. 193hp is the number they've released for tax-reasons.

Just last week friend of mine took 225hp out of standard 2.8, only modification was changing ECU to megasquirt. Before megasquirt it made ~205hp in the same dyno.

[FormerMember]

I am afraid you are just very wrong on the costs front.. I have done BOTH swaps, and helped with 2 more S50's.

So would it be possible that you actually list the costs which take you to 6000£ ? If for starters we state that you buy a running E36 M3 for 3000£, take the engine & gearbox out and sell the rest of it for 2000£ in parts. So you've 5000£ to spend, where do you manage to lose it all?

A cobbled together manifold is fine for a relatively understressed V8, but the S50 is sensitive to the exhaust manifold, and it is easy to lose a lot of power.. The standard manifold is a work of art, and a lot of exhaust places wont even touch the work.. The only proven manifold out there is the btb, which time and again has made stock or above power, and is £1100. Therefore it is not a luxury, more a necessity.

Yes i'm aware that S50 is making almost 100hp/l so the exhaust manifold has to be done properly. Still, i cannot see anyone spending 1500€ for one, because you can buy all the bits you need to do one for 100-200€ and fabricating one is not rocket science. The standard manifold is good, but they've had to do compromises with it anywas so it's not perfect. Even paying exhaust company to do one doesn't cost more than 500€ so still you're almost 1000€ off the target. Or is UK so much more expensive than Finland ?

The two swaps are the same in as far as engine mounts and gearbox mounts and prop/diff, the rest is very different.

Well, is there anything remaining after those? Electrics is just cutting and connecting wires, brake booster clearance is thing which need to be taken care of, but i don't see anything else that needs to be done?

Then you still have the rest of the exhaust to make..

LHD is easier to retain the stock manifold and save plenty of money, but it is still much more expensive than an M50

Yes, but fabricating the exhaust to M50 or S50 is the same, pipe diameter may be 0,5" different but that's all..

[Jhonno]

Blah, blah, blah.

Jhonno, dont you ever stop whining about your btb exhaust manifold?

Constructive post there, congratulations.. Unfortunately we're not all happy being bodge artists.. So what if I recommend a product which makes the most of a conversion, if it offends you that much then jog on and dont read it..

[Simon13]

there won't of been much cost cutting in the design on the S50 manifold to get the first road car into production with over 100bhp p/l. As with all bmw exhausts the only problem is they're too quiet for most enthusiasts and heavy. They have the aftermarket licked generally

They're not stupid you know!

[Jhonno]

Ah ffs.. I just wrote a long reply Jonsku and it's not sent.. Cba to rewrite it now, I have work in the morning..

[Jhonno]

I am afraid you are just very wrong on the costs front.. I have done BOTH swaps, and helped with 2 more S50's.

So would it be possible that you actually list the costs which take you to 6000£ ? If for starters we state that you buy a running E36 M3 for 3000£, take the engine & gearbox out and sell the rest of it for 2000£ in parts. So you've 5000£ to spend, where do you manage to lose it all?

A cobbled together manifold is fine for a relatively understressed V8, but the S50 is sensitive to the exhaust manifold, and it is easy to lose a lot of power.. The standard manifold is a work of art, and a lot of exhaust places wont even touch the work.. The only proven manifold out there is the btb, which time and again has made stock or above power, and is £1100. Therefore it is not a luxury, more a necessity.

Yes i'm aware that S50 is making almost 100hp/l so the exhaust manifold has to be done properly. Still, i cannot see anyone spending 1500€ for one, because you can buy all the bits you need to do one for 100-200€ and fabricating one is not rocket science. The standard manifold is good, but they've had to do compromises with it anywas so it's not perfect. Even paying exhaust company to do one doesn't cost more than 500€ so still you're almost 1000€ off the target. Or is UK so much more expensive than Finland ?

The two swaps are the same in as far as engine mounts and gearbox mounts and prop/diff, the rest is very different.

Well, is there anything remaining after those? Electrics is just cutting and connecting wires, brake booster clearance is thing which need to be taken care of, but i don't see anything else that needs to be done?

Then you still have the rest of the exhaust to make..

LHD is easier to retain the stock manifold and save plenty of money, but it is still much more expensive than an M50

Yes, but fabricating the exhaust to M50 or S50 is the same, pipe diameter may be 0,5" different but that's all..

Sadly I dont remember all my costs, it's been a while.. The exhaust manifold and exhaust were the thick end of 2k though.. I dont have a break down of what my mate spent, but he bought a breaker, made some money back, but still reckoned he spent 4.5k odd..

Well, sadly I am no fabrication expert, but many companies were approached to sort the manifold, and only btb were willing to touch it.. The pipework is intricate equal length, i cant remember the details again but there is a lack of room to go up a size in pipe and make a decent manifold, and the standard dia pipe is difficult to work with or something the guy who did my exhaust was telling me.. Now he knows his onions, and does many manifolds for E30 M3's..

Oil cooler.. Coolant piping, most M50's just use cheap iS box/prop/diff, S50 is the ZF box requiring m3/328i prop and m3 diff. M50 can run a standard e30 325i exhaust or such like.. S50 requires a min twin 2" bore and ideally 2 boxes for noise, I paid for mine to be done, my mate made his own, and costs ended up being not far off each other.. I am happy I paid the extra for a lack of hassle.

It is stupid odds and sods that add up.. I spent more than most dropping mine in, after upgrading clutch/flywheel, arps etc..

Costs for the S50 swap have come down, I did mine 2-3yrs ago effectively.. If you dont have room to break an E36 an engine is still 1.2k-2k for something with warrenty, so that and a decent exhaust is 3-4k.. Yet you dont even have a box/prop etc yet