Twin Seq. Dry sumping for beginners :D

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Turbo-Brown
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Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:27 pm

I've been a busy bee today! Got woken up good an early by the smoke alarm, cycled my fat and hugely unfit arse over to my folks' gaff, and finally started doing some work :D

Started off by bracing up the machining jig for the manifold:

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Welded the manifold on:

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And then started to machine it. Decided it might be nice to cycle home in the daylight so this is as far as I got:

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The process seems to involve doing a pass over the surface of about 0.1mm each time as of course the jig's not all that rigid, and then sharpening the tool again before doing another pass. I figure it's better to take my time and actually get the job done than to have the cutter go blunt and the whole thing to work harden.

Finally, here's the redesign of the rocker arms. Not as pretty, but much cheaper to make!

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Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:47 am

Nice work as always, like the jig, a good solution to arkward shaped manifold. have you thought about using a small tipped shell cutter? i used somthing mike this but with more teeth on a simular job abit back and i worked realy well and with the below one it comes with tips and each tips got 3tips on it when one gets worn you can turn them round. :D

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-1-4-Diameter-sh ... 18Q2el1247

Theres going to be some machining going into making those 12 rockers isn't there! will be an achievement when you've done them though, not meany people can say they've made asmuch as you:mad: Are the standard ones realy not up to the job? What do these 800-1000brake M20 use?

Also where did you get your argon from? ive got a nice tig set still in the box as i cant find any anywere i have to keep borrowing works welding shop at weekends. :(
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hoshy
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Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:31 am

Turbo-Brown wrote:I've been a busy bee today! Got woken up good an early by the smoke alarm.
I presume you stopped to check the house wasn't burning down first?

:)
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Turbo-Brown
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Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:32 pm

Oh my GOD that'd have been useful for doing this Matt! Might well have to invest in one of those at some point, it's taken literally all weekend to surface the manifold with my little single point cutter :lol:

Because I'm a lazy monkey, I'm subbing out the manufacture of the rockers. I'd go bananas machining the same thing over and over and over again! :) It's not so much power that breaks the rockers as revs. I'd quite like to be able to rev to 7k or so and my understanding is that the standard rockers are a bit prone to snapping when regularly pushed that far :(

I've got an account with BOC for an X sized bottle. Think a refill's about £35 or so, and rental on the bottle's £60 a year or so.

He he, the burning was caused by my house mate burning his valentine's breakfast :D

Got the remainder of the manifold surfaced today.

Encountered a slight support problem at the other end as I'd only used three supports. The unsupported end was waggling about a little and giving a really crappy cut so.....

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Knocked up a quick in-situ support. This has almost certainly lifted or dropped that end of the manifold, but it'll be nothing compared to the 2mm bow that it did have, and the gaskets and clamping force of the studs should take it out altogether.

So here it is in all it's freshly flattened glory :D

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Turbo-Brown
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Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:17 pm

Oh, I have lots of free time all of a sudden :( Welcome to dumpsville, population...me! :(

Checked flatness of the manifold face today, it looks like it's not sitting flat, but that's just where I filed a chamfer on the edge. It's not perfect, but it's now flat enough that pressing hard with one finger brings it all into contact with the mill bed :)

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So having done that, I started a dummy build of the engine. There's no timing belt yet so I thought it best to take the cam out of the head. It needs to come out so the new "turbo" cam can go in, although I've yet to measure the new cam, and if the lift is less than the original I might not bother with it! We'll see. Also, a new set of rockers will need to go in either way, and it makes sense to replace the rocker shafts.

I consulted the Haynes manual for how to remove the cam. It says "special tools" or "use four assistants to wedge the rockers down". I figured out how to do it when I rebuilt the head a few years back so I figured I could again......and here's how:

You take all the eccentrics out (might not actually need to do that even, just slacken them all off. Then, you push a couple of loose rockers over towards the other rocker for the same cylinder:

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Then, you rotate the cam a little bit until the remainder of the rockers on that shaft are loose, and then just slide the rocker shaft out, removing rockers as you go. Easy peasy. The other one is the same process, just shift rockers about so that no valves are being held open.

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Finally, just take the cam out :D

So anyway, here's the manifold in place. No gaskets, but a couple of washers behind it to space it from the 'head:

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Turbos in place:

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And the ITBs too :D

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Finally, (to kill some more time so that I didn't have to go home and think miserable thoughts) I machined the oil spacer:

[IMG]http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd29 ... 0Small.jpg[/IMG}

Next big thing to do is to get the inlet plumbing and chargecooler made so that I can set the route of the oil feeds etc. Might see if I can't do that this weekend.
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Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:44 pm

Sorry to hear you've returned to bachelordom :?

In an effort to cheer you up (useless effort!), I have tested your M20 rocker pad and it's 57 Rockwell 'C'. Softer than a LSD plate strangely, they're 63 Rockwell 'C'. I guess it needs to be soft enough not to score the cam? Guessing here.

The stainless steel we use at work is a martensitic hardenable grade. It's magnetic (useful for grinding), cheap and fairly easy to machine then harden with a BIG blowlamp and a bucket of water to about 40 - 45 Rockwell 'C'. Hard but not hard enough.
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:38 am

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You must be feeling a bit crap now, but I'm sure that sight bought a smile to your face!

fantastic work as always. I'm just down the A31 (ish) in Winchester so hopefully I'll see you cruising about during the summer!
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:51 am

hope you know iv shotgunned first passenger ride in this alex!

Its looking great, photos still arent doing all the time and effort justice that you have put into this!

If you need a hand jiggling it all in give me a shout mate
e301988325i
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Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:55 pm

Turbo brown, I'm seriously impressed with what you've done here!
On the technical side of having a twin turbo setup with one turbo larger than the other, are you going to incorporate a system that sends the exhaust gases to the relevant turbo like in the modern twin turbo bmw setups?? See pic below detailed Charge pressure control flap. . .

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I said:

Can anyone suggest how to test if the boot lights are staying on with the boot shut?

e30topless said:

lock the wife in there
Turbo-Brown
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Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:49 pm

:lol: it'd be nice to think I could get it done for the summer....don't have the same financial or time out goings now though so maybe that'll help! Come one come all for passenger rides, just don't expect me to exceed the speed limit!

Cheers e301988325i, I am basically copying the system used on the 535d where exhaust gas is prevented from going directly to the large turbo at low engine speeds and is all forced through the smaller turbo, and as engine/load speed increases the gas is gradually allowed direct to the large turbo, thereby bypassing the small one.

And the same applied to the inlet system pretty much.

So all air enters through the inducer of the large turbo and then either goes through the smaller one or direct to the engine, and all exhaust exits through the large turbo.

The mechanics of the system are very simple, the only headaches have been the packaging (so far) and the electronics side of it remain to be tested!

Tiny update from the weekend. Had a massive hangover on Saturday (well, I have just been dumped!) so pottered around the house and tried to service my mate's car which all went horribly wrong when the HT leads fell apart :lol:

Finally got to my parents' late in the afternoon and set about re-making the piston for the dump valve. I did some very basic testing of the nylon piston by leaving the whole thing in the garage on some very cold nights. It worked fine when it was icy cold, but as soon as it got up to room temperature, the piston jammed shut!

Seems that nylon does lots of expanding and contracting with changing temperatures and it was likely as not gonna cause problems on the car so I've made an alloy one which should expand at the same rate as the rest of the valve body:

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Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:03 pm

gareth wrote:Sorry to hear you've returned to bachelordom :?

In an effort to cheer you up (useless effort!), I have tested your M20 rocker pad and it's 57 Rockwell 'C'. Softer than a LSD plate strangely, they're 63 Rockwell 'C'. I guess it needs to be soft enough not to score the cam? Guessing here.

The stainless steel we use at work is a martensitic hardenable grade. It's magnetic (useful for grinding), cheap and fairly easy to machine then harden with a BIG blowlamp and a bucket of water to about 40 - 45 Rockwell 'C'. Hard but not hard enough.
Shit, completely forgot to thank you for doing this for me dude!

I'm letting the guy who will be making them decide which material to make them from, then just gotta find someone to test them for me :D
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Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:25 pm

J"£$ F"£$% C"$% $%) £"$%
look at the size of that turbo!
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Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:17 pm

Turbo-Brown wrote:
gareth wrote:Sorry to hear you've returned to bachelordom :?

In an effort to cheer you up (useless effort!), I have tested your M20 rocker pad and it's 57 Rockwell 'C'. Softer than a LSD plate strangely, they're 63 Rockwell 'C'. I guess it needs to be soft enough not to score the cam? Guessing here.

The stainless steel we use at work is a martensitic hardenable grade. It's magnetic (useful for grinding), cheap and fairly easy to machine then harden with a BIG blowlamp and a bucket of water to about 40 - 45 Rockwell 'C'. Hard but not hard enough.
Shit, completely forgot to thank you for doing this for me dude!

I'm letting the guy who will be making them decide which material to make them from, then just gotta find someone to test them for me :D
no worries fella :D let me know if you need more testing
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Chuntington101
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Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:27 pm

bloody hell mate! love manifold and turbo setup! its going to be a monster when finished! :)

Chris.

PS. when this all bolts up and fits are you planning on making some more???? :) :) :)
e301988325i
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Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:33 pm

Yeah ok can see the route of the exhaust now :o: .
The valves in the inlet and exhaust system are going to be fun for you I think!

What sort of power/ torque are you aiming for, and across what sort of rev range, looking at those turbos, I'm guesing 1500RPM to about 9000RPM!!!

Cheers
I said:

Can anyone suggest how to test if the boot lights are staying on with the boot shut?

e30topless said:

lock the wife in there
Turbo-Brown
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Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:47 pm

Oh God, I couldn't face making another setup like this! :lol:

The valves in the inlet and exhaust are already made. They're both butterfly type valves, nice 3"dia x 2mm thick brass butterfly for the inlet, and a 2.5" x 4mm thick stainless steel one for the exhaust with very heavy duty stainless spindle welded on :)

I'm hoping for 400ish bhp and I'll be happy with 400lbft of torque.

My hope is that there'll be boost available from idle to the redline, and with a 2.8 litre engine aiming all of it's exhaust at the tiny little HX27 from idle, I reckon that might just be achievable :)

Made progress this weekend on the gear linkage.

First thing to do was establish whether or not the 525tds 'box was gonna fit. Looks like it should, and like it sits at the same angle as the 325i 'box.

Wanted to make the shift as meaty as possible, so it's all a bit heavyweight :lol:

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The link at the bottom is 1" dia solid steel with 6mm plates welded either side. The lever itself is made from solid stainless (I welded the gear-knob onto the rest of the lever rather than machining it all out of solid!) And everything is welded onto the ball from a scrap lever. Simple really.

Last thing I could be bothered with this week was to clean the oil filter housing and see whether it'd actually fit with the little turbo in place. It does....just. And I'll need to make some much tighter unions for the oil cooler, but fit it does and that's the main thing!

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Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:19 pm

Well, now the weather's a bit warmer, I've decided to get all tooled up to make the rest of my CF panels and bits and bobs. Gonna re-make the boot mould having learned from the mistake of last time which should result in a much neater edge to the finished panel.

Also going to lay panels up in one hit using core-mat to give the required stiffness rather than trying to ape the ribs which BMW put on the metal panels.

So if anybody wants just the outer skin of a boot lid for a track car or whatever, gimme a shout :) Same goes for the sunroof plug. It's not perfect, but for a track car it'd be fine.

Anyway, getting ready to order up all this composite stuff has spurred me onto getting the foam cores for the charge air ready to be laid up.

Started off by creating a skirt of parcel tape underneath all the alloy nodes:

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Idea behind this is to prevent any resin seeping under the nodes and dissolving the foam. The cores are all out in the garage drying off a coat of PVA which should hopefully protect the rest of the foam.

That done, it was off the the parents' house to get on with the oil distribution system. My experience with Brown leads me to believe that using jubilee clips to hold oil lines on just leads to them leaking. Not badly, but a bit of a weep, and if you over tighten them then the clip's scrap.

So, I've made some beefier clips from ali which will hopefully mean I can do them up as tight as necessary and forget all about them :)

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Thought I had some suitable screws kicking about but they're not quite long enough, but here's the line to the oil dizzy block :D

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Turbo-Brown
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Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:03 pm

Thought it might be a nice idea to finish off the gauge pod today, so dragged my sleepy self over to the parents' house, only to discover that we've got every size of hole saw other than a 2" one :lol: so the pod's still like this:

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So got on with making little trinkets for the throttle linkage.

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The idea is that I'll capture the screws on that big long flat bar and thread the little bit with a hole in it so it can be adjusted back and forth. Then, the little ball bearing can be glued in and bolted through onto the throttle arm. Nice and simple (for once!)
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initial_g
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:09 am

what happend to this?
Turbo-Brown
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:31 pm

What happened to what? :?
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initial_g
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:11 pm

the build? the car?
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:27 pm

:lol:
This is normal pace for Alex :P
Don't worry, I'm sure he'll finish it.
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initial_g
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:18 pm

yeh brill thread hell of alot of work gone into it :o

also read the date wrong thought itd been abandond in march 08 keep up the good work chief :cool:
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baptie0
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:02 pm

hi there
i would be very interested in your spare carbon bits if you dont mind posting. what price are you after? cheers jonny :D
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Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:32 pm

:lol: yeah, the project's still going....just veeeeery slowly :D

Hmmmm, would have to look into postage as the boot would have to go in quite a big box I think.

At least it's not heavy though :lol:

Just to clarify, the boot would need pinning on and is just comprised of the outer skin, and the sunroof would need bonding in and doesn't have the attachment points for the sunroof mechanism.
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initial_g
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Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:27 pm

^ like my boot and sunroof just use lockable pins in the boot
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Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:14 pm

Turbo-Brown wrote::lol: yeah, the project's still going....just veeeeery slowly :D

Hmmmm, would have to look into postage as the boot would have to go in quite a big box I think.

At least it's not heavy though :lol:

Just to clarify, the boot would need pinning on and is just comprised of the outer skin, and the sunroof would need bonding in and doesn't have the attachment points for the sunroof mechanism.
if you didnt mind posting the bits, that would be amazing, or i could arrange a courier. pinning the boot on is not a problem as the car is just for fun. i am trying to loose as much weight as i can so am also planning to remove sunroof. i can just weld a lip onto existing roof an bond the thing on!! the car looks rough as hell anyway these would make it proper!! let me know if your up for it and i can send a fee to cover it no problem. cheers jonny
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Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:52 pm

this will amuse you alex... me and my bro are putting together a puglet 205 gti track plaything with the lighter 106gti 1.6 16v TU series engine. last weekend we were stripping uneccesary weight out to the point the dashboard is now gone, and removing obsolete wiring (heavy stuff!) for all electric stuff that's since been binned. we were thinking about carbon interior door panels but got put off by the price. so we started some lateral thinking (dangerous!), this led us onto glass fibre but we can't find anyone who will sell 1mm sheets yet... more lateral thinking... polycarbonate, polypropylene etc all considered, then we stumbled upon a site that can supply very large and cheap sheets of tufnol in various thicknesses! that amuses the sad engineer that lurks within me and is definately retro! similar in principle to glass/carbon fibre but a lot more old skool! samples will be on order soon :cool:
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Turbo-Brown
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Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:40 am

You can easily make CF sheets yourself, depending on the finish you want. for example, when I was making bits and bobs for the now ex, I polished a sheet of thin ali and then made some CF on that. It looked great and you could easily scale it up a bit.

CF costs about £30/sqm/ply, so you're only looking at about say £150/sqm for a usable laminate :D

Work on laying up my charge air pipes and CF plenum starts tomorrow, think I'm gonna be veeeery hung over!
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Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:47 pm

gareth wrote:this will amuse you alex... me and my bro are putting together a puglet 205 gti track plaything with the lighter 106gti 1.6 16v TU series engine. last weekend we were stripping uneccesary weight out to the point the dashboard is now gone, and removing obsolete wiring (heavy stuff!) for all electric stuff that's since been binned. we were thinking about carbon interior door panels but got put off by the price. so we started some lateral thinking (dangerous!), this led us onto glass fibre but we can't find anyone who will sell 1mm sheets yet... more lateral thinking... polycarbonate, polypropylene etc all considered, then we stumbled upon a site that can supply very large and cheap sheets of tufnol in various thicknesses! that amuses the sad engineer that lurks within me and is definately retro! similar in principle to glass/carbon fibre but a lot more old skool! samples will be on order soon :cool:
Sunroof(if you have one? most did :( ) weighs around 14 kilos, you can plate that saving around 10-12 kilos dependant on thickness. Right at the top of the car too.

There was a 106 rallye with a gti engine in it at the recent trackday. All very nicely done unlike our abortion, but he couldn't keep pace with the mi16. :) I think if you could squeeze 160bhp out of the gti engine it would go very well, but for the same money you could probably get an mi16 to around 220bhp which would make it a total weapon.
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Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:05 pm

Bit hung over again today so decided to stay at home and write a quick carbon/composites guide :D

I need to finish off the charge cooler and charge air plumbing before I can get on and make brackets for the large turbo, actuators and that kind of thing. Any comments / suggestions welcome! :)

Some time ago, I made the foam cores for the bits I need. Decided to start the guide on something relatively simple in shape, the airbox which will be bonded to the charge cooler cores.

So, first, you've to make a polystyrene core. Use polystyrene as it's easily dissolved out of your finished composite using acetone or whatever:

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If you need to build up the thickness of your core as I did, you can use quick setting epoxy glue. Just dot it around the two bits to be joined rather than spreading it as the cured glue is difficult to cut neatly.

Having made your core, you need to prevent it being attacked by the resin when you make your composite. You can either use epoxy resin (which is very expensive but doesn't eat into polystyrene) or you can do what I did which is to give the core a good thick coat of PVA glue.

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I gave the core two coats just to be sure, really work the glue into any divets as you don't want the resin seeping in!

The brown tape on my core there was used to cover over some gouges in the core. Put your masking on once the PVA has set as the PVA will just run off the tape if you try it the other way round :)

Once your core's ready, you need to decide how you're gonna cover it. In my case, I want it to look nice, but not cost too much. Weight is also a very important concern for this component and it'll be subject to some fairly high pressures so it must be good and strong too. For these reasons, I decided to make it from a combination of woven glass cloth and woven carbon fibre, two plies of each. If you're making a really complex shape, it's probably easier to live with the extra weight of Chopped Strand Matting (CSM) and use that instead.

Before you can start cutting up your reinforcements, you need to make a template. There are probably better ways of doing this than using news paper, but it's expendible so it doesn't matter if you get it wrong, and you can add bits onto it with tape if you need :)

It seems logical, given the shape of my core here, to use one large piece of cloth per ply and have the edges overlap, so I've made my template big enough to do just that.

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Once you're happy with the template, it's time to start cutting out your reinforcements. I cut one out and then make sure it all fits as it should....in principal at least!

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You can see how well the cloth drapes over the more complex curves of the core, which the paper just won't do. In the second piccy, we can see that there's too much material to allow us to make the tight turn around the end of the core, so trim the cloth to suit and then update the template so that the remaining plies all fit:

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Don't know if you can see, but there's an arrow on the template and a corresponding arrow on the core. If you can mark your reinforcements with something like a little bit of parcel tape or something, it makes it easier to get them round the right way when you're laminating :)

Finally, it's time to start laminating all your cloth onto the core.

In my case, there's to be a large opening in the finished piece which makes it nice and easy to hold the core up. I stabbed two large files deep into the core to make it as stable as possible, then clamp the files in a vice. It's probably a good idea to wrap the vice in a bin liner or something to stop resin getting into it, but I forgot! :lol:

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Right, now for the sciency bit.....how much resin to use!

The resin to reinforcement ratio is determined by two things:
1) weight of the reinforcement
2) type of reinforcement

I know that the glass cloth I'm using weigh 390g/sqm, and that I need about a 1:1 resin to fabric ratio. I also know that the first ply will need more resin than subsequent plies as we need to paint a good layer of resin all over the core before we can put the first layer of cloth on, and then we need to paint more resin all over that....more on that in a mo though!

If you're using CSM, you need about 2.5:1 resin to reinforcement by weight, so you can see how the weight of a CSM laminate is likely to be much higher than a woven cloth laminate of the same thickness.

So, measuring the overall size of the template, at 0.9mx0.7m gives an area of roughly 0.6sqm and a cloth weight of 234g. So for the first ply, we need to mix up about 500g of resin, and about 250g for subsequent plies. The carbon fibre weighs about half as much as glass per sqm, so in theory we'd need half as much resin, but it doesn't hurt to have some spare resin at the ready!

So, having carefully read the instructions which came with our resin, we mix up a 500g batch. You need to make sure you've read and properly understood the safety information which came with the resin too! These chemicals have the potential to be very unpleasant, especially the catalyst so make sure your workspace is clear and tidy with no tripping hazards, wear the recommended eye protection, respiratory protection and be sure to wear appropriate gloves! Your safety is your responsibility, not mine!

Once the resin is thoroughly mixed as per the instructions, we need to paint the core with it so that there's a layer of resin all over the core. Once that layer of resin is on, you can pick up your first piece of cloth and CAREFULLY position it on the core. If you get it wrong at this stage and you're using woven fabric, trying to take the cloth off will likely as not result in it falling apart. Have a try though as you might be lucky. If it does start coming apart, it's probably best just to try and trim it back and get it all to stick down. Keep a pair of scissors handy for this kind of thing!

Once the cloth is positioned, we need to carefully pat in onto the core using our gloved hands. Even though there's an overhang on my component, the surface tension of the resin holds the cloth in place.

Once you're happy with the positioning, pick up your resin and start painting it all over the cloth. Firm brush strokes are all you need with woven cloth to get the air out. Work on larger surfaces first and then the smaller details.

Once the cloth is properly wetted out, mix up another batch of resin, take another ply and put it on in exactly the same way. Pat it into position and see how it soaks up resin from the ply beneath. Remember that we need less resin this time round!

And that's essentially it, keep mixing up batches of resin and adding plies of reinforcement in exactly the same way until you've put all your plies on :)

Carbon fibre goes on in exactly the same way as glass cloth, but it's more difficult to see whether there's air trapped under it so be extra dilligent with your brush when it comes to squeezing the air out.

And here's the drying result:

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Once that's all dried, it'll probably be a but bumpy on the surface as the cloth has that kind of surface to it. So next up we'll look at getting a nice gloss surface which the show going public can all swoon over, but that'll have to wait for another day :D
325i Twin Turbo (until 10am 01/12/07 :( )

www.air-in.co.uk free M20 exhaust and inlet flange
toecutter666
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Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:49 pm

What an awesome thread, been glued to this for the last couple of hours. My hats off to you mate, can't wait to see the finished project
Turbo-Brown
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Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:18 pm

Cheers dude, much appreciated :D

Made the second most complex of the charge air bits today, the pipe which runs up from the air divertor valve to the inlet of the charge cooler.

It's not especially pretty as the fire retardant resin is opaque white, but to keep it looking nice I'll give it a veneer of carbon fibre to the visible surfaces.

Image

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I was gonna try and use hose joiners to attach it to the air valve, but it seemed a better option to mould a flange onto the end so it can be drilled and screwed into place.

The little pipe is there to allow boost from the small turbo to bypass the air valve :)
325i Twin Turbo (until 10am 01/12/07 :( )

www.air-in.co.uk free M20 exhaust and inlet flange
Turbo-Brown
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:38 pm

And a little bit if post-St Paddies day work, the other pipe complete with flange so it can be bolted to the air valve.

This pipe takes air from the large turbo to either the small turbo or the air valve.

Image
325i Twin Turbo (until 10am 01/12/07 :( )

www.air-in.co.uk free M20 exhaust and inlet flange
initial_g
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:03 pm

brilliant just brilliant :D im making a airbox for mine, was going to make it out of fibreglass (have alot of experiance with this) but i recon il give it a go with cf now :cool:
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