how to build a powerful 2.7? most powerful built?

[HairyScreech]

ian is gonna go 2.8 i can see it coming

nah 3.1 stroker,

problem i have with going f/i is that i will keeping turning the boost up and up and up untill it goes bang. with n/a i cant do this.

2.7 in my opinion is also proven to give a nice driveable engine with alot of torque but i want to build it so it revs like a nutter, every little move of the throttle and the engine will respond is what i want.[b/]

im not disregarding an m50 becuase trust me i really want one but not in this shell, that will come but probally in diesel power as my every day car.

if you want it to rev up quickly then you need to remove as much mass from the moving parts as possible, light flywheel, alloy pulleys, possible an electric pas pump, no viscous fan, forged pistons, rods and crank, electric water pump.

you want to remove as much drag and weight from the system as possible, and this applies to any capacity you go for.

[1an]

correct me if i wrong but yours is in Ants workshop broken.

dont claim no dull money thanks, like ive said its planed for long term i.e over this year. ive made my mind now i want a 2.7 no changing and dont want f/i.

plan is to chuck the 2.5 in now then build myself a rebuilt 2.7, with all the trimmings.

the reason mine is there is because i have taken an M20 or should i say Ant has taken it to a completely new level and its having some teething issues like every ongoing project. soon to be released with more BOOST
if you want to get in to a pissing contest we can, but to be truthfully honest don't waste your time with the B25 as its mayoing all over the place just build something properly. as you have pointed out!! oh by the way i was extracting the urine and i don't need any of your bovine scattery!!! thanks !!

you do realise i was joking. i understand your car is pushing m20b25 to quite a new level.

[M5pilot]

A very high powered M20 has the compromise of crap idle and lack of bottom end power.

220 bhp -225 bhp is pretty much the limit if you want some low end torque.

A standard Alpina lump with a Schrick 284/272 cam can achieve this with careful tuning. You still have loads of low end grunt (170 lb.ft from 1500rpm rising to 225 lb.ft @ 4500rpm).

Want more? Go for a smallish turbo setup which can easily and reliably give 250 bhp but with huge amounts of torque spread through the RPM range. Driveability is excellent.

Want more?......get a bigger engine........ The E36 M3 Evo engine is extremely strong and offers a genuine 300bhp with 265 lb.ft spread through the entire rev range almost and it revs like hell.

These engines get caned and caned and still hold together as long as they are properly maintained.

I have yet to sit in any FI M20 or NA M20 which matches Ian Haynes's S50 engined E30 and most importantly is as reliable.

I have been in Ian's car and it is devastatingly quick.

I really don't understand why someone would spend £3000-£5000 on M20's when you can have an S50 conversion for not much more. You get a proper M Power engine aswell!

[fowler]

yes and Mpower costs SAL when it goes wrong oh and it will its an m Power lump

[oguz327]

A very high powered M20 has the compromise of crap idle and lack of bottom end power.

220 bhp -225 bhp is pretty much the limit if you want some low end torque.

A standard Alpina lump with a Schrick 284/272 cam can achieve this with careful tuning. You still have loads of low end grunt (170 lb.ft from 1500rpm rising to 225 lb.ft @ 4500rpm).

Want more? Go for a smallish turbo setup which can easily and reliably give 250 bhp but with huge amounts of torque spread through the RPM range. Driveability is excellent.

Want more?......get a bigger engine........ The E36 M3 Evo engine is extremely strong and offers a genuine 300bhp with 265 lb.ft spread through the entire rev range almost and it revs like hell.

These engines get caned and caned and still hold together as long as they are properly maintained.

I have yet to sit in any FI M20 or NA M20 which matches Ian Haynes's S50 engined E30 and most importantly is as reliable.

I have been in Ian's car and it is devastatingly quick.

I really don't understand why someone would spend £3000-£5000 on M20's when you can have an S50 conversion for not much more. You get a proper M Power engine aswell!

Was wondering went you would chip in!


S50 is a wicked conversion but...
It will cost at least 6k minimum if you do everything yourself but more likely cost 8-10k and you dont get a rebuilt engine out of that.

Dont forget, although the newer engines are more powerful and efficient some of us are oldskool and still like the m20.
I like the m20 soundtrack, simplicity, affordable parts and its meant to be there.

My 2p

[fowler]

Was wondering went you would chip in!


S50 is a wicked conversion but...
It will cost at least 6k minimum if you do everything yourself but more likely cost 8-10k and you dont get a rebuilt engine out of that.

Dont forget, although the newer engines are more powerful and efficient some of us are oldskool and still like the m20.
I like the m20 soundtrack, simplicity, affordable parts and its meant to be there.

My 2p

OZ you hero !!! M20 has an usmistakeable noise but the S50 is a souless engine produced by the germans for domination of the sport coupe

[M5pilot]

I think you'll find that M power lumps are extremely reliable given the abuse they get.

How many S50's do we hear about that throw conrods or spin bearings? Cracked heads?....not many. Even the Vanos failures are simply down to people not maintaining them. The vanos filters were part of the BMW service but we never done even at main dealers.......and then people wonder why the units failed!

You now have the S54 engines coming in at around £2500. A genuine 325 bhp (quoted 338bhp) all day long and very reliable. Worried about bearings?.....change them before you install it, it's not hard!

Both of these engines give smooth linear power with excellent torque spread.

M20 Turbo engines - very very narrow power band for the 300 bhp + engines and they seem to blow up all the time! By the time these engines come on boost an S50 would have disappeared into the sunset

[oguz327]

I think you'll find that M power lumps are extremely reliable given the abuse they get.

How many S50's do we hear about that throw conrods or spin bearings? Cracked heads?....not many. Even the Vanos failures are simply down to people not maintaining them. The vanos filters were part of the BMW service but we never done even at main dealers.......and then people wonder why the units failed!

You now have the S54 engines coming in at around £2500. A genuine 325 bhp (quoted 338bhp) all day long and very reliable. Worried about bearings?.....change them before you install it, it's not hard!

Both of these engines give smooth linear power with excellent torque spread.

M20 Turbo engines - very very narrow power band for the 300 bhp + engines and they seem to blow up all the time! By the time these engines come on boost an S50 would have disappeared into the sunset

So when are you sticking an s50/s54 into the pina then dude?

[M5pilot]

Was wondering went you would chip in!


S50 is a wicked conversion but...
It will cost at least 6k minimum if you do everything yourself but more likely cost 8-10k and you dont get a rebuilt engine out of that.

Dont forget, although the newer engines are more powerful and efficient some of us are oldskool and still like the m20.
I like the m20 soundtrack, simplicity, affordable parts and its meant to be there.

My 2p

OZ you hero !!! M20 has an usmistakeable noise but the S50 is a souless engine produced by the germans for domination of the sport coupe

yes....BMW really don't know what they are doing and the S50 was a huge mistake

An engine which produces 80% of it's torque @ 1500 rpm and carries on and on and on pulling with an awesome sound track if you marry it up to a nice exhaust and intake. An engine that will produce serious power (think 330 bhp+) with a set of cams and a remap.

Anyway.....I'm going off topic here as it's about how to build a high powered M20 and I thin a few people have laid out the basic recipe many many times.

[M5pilot]

I think you'll find that M power lumps are extremely reliable given the abuse they get.

How many S50's do we hear about that throw conrods or spin bearings? Cracked heads?....not many. Even the Vanos failures are simply down to people not maintaining them. The vanos filters were part of the BMW service but we never done even at main dealers.......and then people wonder why the units failed!

You now have the S54 engines coming in at around £2500. A genuine 325 bhp (quoted 338bhp) all day long and very reliable. Worried about bearings?.....change them before you install it, it's not hard!

Both of these engines give smooth linear power with excellent torque spread.

M20 Turbo engines - very very narrow power band for the 300 bhp + engines and they seem to blow up all the time! By the time these engines come on boost an S50 would have disappeared into the sunset

So when are you sticking an s50/s54 into the pina then dude?

Doubt that's going to happen mate! The Alpina engine only has 8k on it!

[fowler]

S52 spin shells for fun i know several that have spun shell 6 on more than one occaision S54 very good engine ! but they are like any engine abused not looked after it will break !!
Turbo cars are quite good as Saab has done them for nearly 20 years, now BMw are doing it to som detremental effect to thier reliabilty figures

[oguz327]

Dont know why you spent all that money on a 2.7 with all the other engine options you were just chatting about then? "edit" Sal

[HairyScreech]

dont think fowler was saying they were a shite engine, just that they are mass produced souless-ness.

[M5pilot]

No one said anything bad about turbo cars.
Turbo m20's on the other hand don't seem to be a very good idea given than nearly every single one seems to have problems. They either totally blow up like yours does or their cooling systems cannot handle it.

To build a proper M20 which can handle a big turbo it takes a good £6000 from what Ant says.

I cannot see how a high powered Turbo M20 will do lap after lap on the Nurburgring without something failing. NA M20's or S50/S54's will do lap after lap.

[oguz327]

You do ramble on sometimes Sal

[M5pilot]

Dont know why you spent all that money on a 2.7 with all the other engine options you were just chatting about then? "edit" Sal

I think you already know the answer to this one......it's a genuine Alpina.

More money was spent on the respray than the engine. It has a simple rebuild with a cam. The BTB manifold didn't cost a penny as the old Alpina item was sold for a large sum of money.

[fowler]

yes....BMW really don't know what they are doing and the S50 was a huge mistake

An engine which produces 80% of it's torque @ 1500 rpm and carries on and on and on pulling with an awesome sound track if you marry it up to a nice exhaust and intake. An engine that will produce serious power (think 330 bhp+) with a set of cams and a remap.

Anyway.....I'm going off topic here as it's about how to build a high powered M20 and I thin a few people have laid out the basic recipe many many times.

dont think fowler was saying they were a shite engine, just that they are mass produced souless-ness.

well said that man but we all know an M power car can be a fragile beast, but when the beast is released its a fericous beast at that but sal seriously S50 noise is so predictable witha carbon airbox etc you can see it over and over again but each m20n has its own noise and rattle !!

[M5pilot]

You do ramble on sometimes Sal

Yeah.....Turbo M20's blow up most of the time.....

btw - loving the Alpina spoiler!

[bss325i]

You do ramble on sometimes Sal

Yeah.....Turbo M20's blow up most of the time.....

btw - loving the Alpina spoiler!

Front or rear?

[M5pilot]

yes....BMW really don't know what they are doing and the S50 was a huge mistake

An engine which produces 80% of it's torque @ 1500 rpm and carries on and on and on pulling with an awesome sound track if you marry it up to a nice exhaust and intake. An engine that will produce serious power (think 330 bhp+) with a set of cams and a remap.

Anyway.....I'm going off topic here as it's about how to build a high powered M20 and I thin a few people have laid out the basic recipe many many times.

dont think fowler was saying they were a shite engine, just that they are mass produced souless-ness.

well said that man but we all know an M power car can be a fragile beast, but when the beast is released its a fericous beast at that but sal seriously S50 noise is so predictable witha carbon airbox etc you can see it over and over again but each m20n has its own noise and rattle !!

Ok, I think everyone gets the point. You love M20's and I favour the S50 upgrade as I beleive it's a more reliable and cost effective way of getting power as Ian Haynes has proved.

[fowler]

yes but how much has it cost Ian 20 K plus on that car i am sure !!

[M5pilot]

You do ramble on sometimes Sal

Yeah.....Turbo M20's blow up most of the time.....

btw - loving the Alpina spoiler!

Front or rear?

I Like em both to be honest but I think old Oguz has just the front one.

[M5pilot]

yes but how much has it cost Ian 20 K plus on that car i am sure !!

It can be done for sensible money if your clever. S50's are not that expensive anymore.

[bss325i]

Not any more, he has the one from that green C2.

[M5pilot]

Oguz does have an eye for making an E30 look very nice!

[cliffybabe]

core this thread has been hijacked by u boys, poor ian

[HairyScreech]

think everything that needs to be said already has, its up to ian to make up his mind now.

carry on lads.

[bss325i]

1an will just want to swap heads to fit a different inlet manifold!

[Simon13]

i'm sorry but saying M-power lumps are fragile is just boll0cks really. Toughest bmw engine i know? S14

This is just willy waving and the bottom line is Ian won't listen to word said on this thread! He will dismiss every replay 1 by 1 as per

[HairyScreech]

1an will just want to swap heads to fit a different inlet manifold!

que?

[bss325i]

1an will just want to swap heads to fit a different inlet manifold!

que?

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... ic&t=92284

[HairyScreech]

riiiiight,

[Jhonno]

S50 not cheap to do.. but you try getting 300bhp out of an m20

as for reliabilty.. we'll see soon, excepting Ian's impecable reliability record.. Not actually heard of many s50's going pop compared to m20's cracking heads.. that said, a well built m20 is a weapon and makes a great noise

[reggid]

why waste an s50 in an e30 chassis.....lol.

Its pretty easy to create a powerful M20 it just costs alot (more than a s50 swap for an engine thta isn't as good) and will be comprimised, but it is very difficult to create a m20 that has useable torque over a very wide rpm band and also has alot of power.

IMO the most important aspect is the CAM you have to use the least "hot cam" you can to get the peak power band your after so you can retain as much midrange and lowend so don't over cam it. To do this you need the head to flow well and use a good 6 branch with shorter runners on the intake manifold.

Does anyone know what cam is used in this car?

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... techtb.htm

it seems to have a very high BMEP (Torque/L) even higher than a 24V M engine which has ITB, double vanos and all the bells and whistles. If the numbers are reliable then the same spec is a good place to start

[Ant]

Reggid, that car is an auto, and was dynoed on a rundown dyno so the figures are not going to be gospel dude.

nothing wrong with a good 2.7, nor a 2.8 for that matter, I've built quite a few 2.7s, and one 2.8 in the last 18 months, all were excellent in all respects imho.

M50/52 swop, again superb and understressed the M52 with some tweaks is an excellent alternative to an S5x

S50 swops are great, but rebuild it 1st then fit it and the 6K bubble is long burst, there are 6 zoners I know of that were sold duff S50 mills, buyer beware indeed , also begs the question, if the S50 is such a wonderful engine, why are there soo many knackered ones knocking about ?? especially given the age/mileages ?

in any case, this was an M20 thread, not a pissing contest for others to air their opinions on, so can it remain as intended please folks ?