M30 into E30 M3

[Andy335Touring]

That is really impressive, a stripped saloon could expect to get in the 13's then I suppose, although you have a few tasty mods, did I read a dyno saying 248bhp?? What did you do to acheive this? Sorry to bombard you with questions.

If you get around 240-250bhp in a stripped out M3 shell then you should be in the 13's.

Chip and cam will get you around 240, if you add a flowed head then you'll be around the 250 mark. As yours is a track car you might want to go for a longer duration cam than the more common schrick 284/280 profile, sorry i can't find the links but google Metric Mechanics and Cat Cams(i think ?) for the longer duration cams. I think you can get them around 290-300 duration ?

I've got a schrick 284/280, ported head and a mappable ECU which is still on the original map that Dave Walker did for me ages ago, i'd say i'm around the 250 mark but i can't be sure.

[Andy335Touring]

Sorry to hear that Andy!
Hope you find something better real soon!

Cheers dude

[Theo]

I would be delighted with 240-250 from just a cam and chip. Demlot, do you really think that the car would not be an effective track weapon, I can appreciate that it won't rev like the S14 would, but I dont really understand why this would be such an issue. My 325i gets in the power band at about 3.8k, which I was perfectly happy with around the ring, infact if anything, I found myself wanting more low down grunt, it seemed that several corners were in between 3rd and 4th gear.

I must admit you've got me thinking though....

[Demlotcrew]

The longer you can stay in a lower gear the better as the gearbox is just a multiplier of engine power.

Why do you think that race cars rev so high? Why do all the ///M engines rev so high? ETC

Also i think that the M30 might just have a little too much torque low down and would be quite tail happy for track. But you did seem to have a better driving style than me so i think it might be down to driver preference. But i like the high revving four valves per cyliner engines which dont die off top end. (unless you go big bore)

Andrew

[DRIFTBOY]

I suppose it down to personal preference.

My 335i is the only car I own and my daily driver so I appreciate the low down grunt and flexibility of the big engine.
And I do like a spot of easy sideways action!

My old RX7 was a bit of a screamer, it would rev to 8500 and that was just as much fun but in a different way.

Hey, it's all good as long as it's fast!

[johnl320]

Just read this thread with interest, just a quick question. Would the M30 lump mate up okay with the origional M3 gearbox? There have been rumblings of late on here about M10 gearboxes, mainly from Gunni I believe.
Great project though and best of luck

john

[Theo]

The longer you can stay in a lower gear the better as the gearbox is just a multiplier of engine power.

Why do you think that race cars rev so high? Why do all the ///M engines rev so high? ETC

Also i think that the M30 might just have a little too much torque low down and would be quite tail happy for track. But you did seem to have a better driving style than me so i think it might be down to driver preference. But i like the high revving four valves per cyliner engines which dont die off top end. (unless you go big bore)

That's very interesting stuff, your car pulls so well right to the top of the rev range, which I must say is nice. I dont like the thought that the arse end will be slipping out all the time, but with the right suspension setup and tyres this would hopefully not be so evident.

[M5pilot]

I think traction will be a serious problem with the light weight E30 rear end and skinny tyres.

The Alpina just about puts it's power down with 225 rear tyres, an m30 is just going to spin up.

The M30 is not exactly a revver either which is probably going to run out of steam at anything over 6000rpm (where the S14 really comes alive).

S38 3.8 - best of both worlds, huge torque with S14 revs (and 340 bhp) - if only they would go into an E30 shell and not have cooling issues.

Sal

[Theo]

What about cars like the B6 and H35? Did they have traction issues?

[gareth]

to be honest, a M30 just feels like a 'big' 325i. thrashing the tits off it to 6K doesn't get you down the road that much faster than shifting at 5K as (with a standard engine at least) it doesn't have a critical powerband that you need to be in and the torque will pull you through the next gear from almost any revs. no bogging down like a screamy 4 pot. anything from 1500rpm is waaay fun!

driving quickly is a lot easier with a lazier engine as there are usually at least 2 or 3 perfect gears for any particular section of road i also find the torque makes drifting etc a lot easier as a squirt of throttle will almost always set the revs where you want them

it's horses for courses really. on a pure track car, a 4 pot would have it's obvious advantages but you have to be full-on with it to make the same progress.

mine should be back on the road soon into the new year and i'd happily take you out for a blat in it, as i'm sure driftboy would. have you been in an M3? they are fast but imo lack the brutality of a M30. one thing to remember when comparing power figures is that the M30 makes a lot more power and torque over a much wider rev range and this means you can use more of it in each gear.

comparing M30 to M30 dyno plots would be worthwhile. anyone got any?

[Theo]

Hi Gareth, would be great to have a ride in your car once its back in business, I've only been in a couple of M3's, one was a total dog which my 325i would comfortably have seen to, the other (Andrews, which is basically an m3) was very impressive. I've been in an E28 535i and that thing pulled like a train, and sounded great, but I am worried about this suggestion of lack of traction, I dont want to be sliding round everywhere, I want to get some good lap times rather than brutal drifts (and probably crashes).

[gareth]

the best traction control system devised by man is your right foot!

the M30 has the torque to spin the wheels and drift like a good'un but only the same as a M3 would at higher revs. it'll never be anywhere near as hairy as say turbocharged car.

with the added track and the ability to have wider tyres, like a M3, you'll have the best of both worlds.

[M5pilot]

If your worried about lap times then the big M30 up front is not going to help round bends unless you can get the engine far back enough. Apparently you can retain the same "balance" as a stock 2.5 but I find that a little hard to believe.

Don't get me wrong, I think the m30 conversion is a good one to go for if the car is purely a road car. Power band as mentioned above is great and gives the E30 a big fun factor.

Traction problems can be over come by simply limiting the amount of stick you give the throttle so it's not really that much of an issue.

E28 535i's are very quick.

Sal

[Foomanchu]

Sorry To Hi Jack this intresting thread.......

Sal it's Lui what news do you have regarding this zone chip for my new 2.7...
If you can help please do.

Lui

[Jon_Bmw]

Interesting debate, Andrew is right an out and out reving car is better on a track...if the driver is good enough to make use of it. With our 200sx nothing happens till 4000rpm, i mean nothing, then it suddenly goes beserk and is at 7000rpm in milli seconds, now although this is what you want usually on a track, its all very good till you come to a corner that needs to be taken at 35mph. 1st NO, 2nd, bloody hell the thing bogs down like a metro, its unreal.
A point to note, a non turbocharged car's that revs hard(m engines) the power is much more linear and probably more ideal for a track rather than turbocharged where as gareth said, it can get hairy.

I think unless you are an out and out racing driver, which i am a million miles away from btw, i don't think you'd go far wrong with a torquey setup, it'll certainly push you through the corners very well, whereas a revving engine comes unstuck a little bit. As for spinning up the tyres, seems unlikely to me, budget 195's only spin a fraction at 6000+rpm in second gear(270bhp in the dry). If you are brutal with the clutch then maybe, but smoothness is the key i'm led to believe.

[DRIFTBOY]

I agree with a lot of stuff said here.
I drive my 335i hard, when I can, on the road.
If I'm brutal with it I can unsettle it in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear in the dry, but with smooth driving it really puts the power down well.
Drifting is always an option though.

At the December 3rd meet at the Grasshopper pub I took Carlos (co-founder of www.bimmerowner.co.uk) up the road. I think he was impressed judging by the expletives coming from his mouth!

As for handling, I have taken some weight off the front of mine and got engine in position 3 (furthest back). I have no complaints at all with it feeling 'weighty' at the front. I've had no understeer at all in it as yet, but not had it on a track.

I haven't driven one, but I'm sure a 4-pot M3 would feel a bit crisper turning into a corner, but personally, I need the 6-pot growl!

And Theo, as Gareth said, I am more than happy to take you for a blast in mine too! If you don't like it, at least you can decide that before you are half way through your build project! That would be

[m10man]

BMW won a few European Touring Car Championships in the '70's and '80's with the M30 powered E24 (2 valve head) so they must have good potential as a track engine. Just an interesting side point.

[professormatt]

hi Theo

im also starting my new project,going to put my spare m30 twin turbo into my e30 m3 shell,it'll be good to see how you get on

cheers matt

[Theo]

Thanks for all the info guys, I think that should I get this M3, which is by no means certain, then I will go ahead with the m30 project, but perhaps not before seeing how the car goes with the original engine.

Martin, that would be great if we could meet up sometime, I'll be finished at uni towards the end of next week, will give you a shout once I'm back down and try and arange something, thanks again! Looking forward to it!

[DRIFTBOY]

Martin, that would be great if we could meet up sometime, I'll be finished at uni towards the end of next week, will give you a shout once I'm back down and try and arange something, thanks again! Looking forward to it!

No probs - we should try and pick a dry day though!
I should have my H&R anti-roll bars fitted by then too!

[M5pilot]

As for handling, I have taken some weight off the front of mine and got engine in position 3 (furthest back). I have no complaints at all with it feeling 'weighty' at the front. I've had no understeer at all in it as yet, but not had it on a track.

I haven't driven one, but I'm sure a 4-pot M3 would feel a bit crisper turning into a corner, but personally, I need the 6-pot growl!

Get it on track and you will understand what understeer means.......after getting a passanger ride in an E30 M3 or Demlotcrew's S14 engined 318iS.

The M3 can take bends at very high speeds and maintain balance that a normal E30 with a 6cyl engine could never dream of even with uprated suspension.

However, accelerating out of bends and on straights the M30 way is in another league compared to a stock M3 (200 bhp).

Sal

[Theo]

No probs - we should try and pick a dry day though!
I should have my H&R anti-roll bars fitted by then too!

Yes, would be good if it's dry! I'm thinking of getting a set of those H&R's myself, and a full set of powerflex bushes, (which I seem to remember you having as well?) so I think if I can ride in your car will be a really useful experience. Infact, you've also got a zone and uprated cam, which is also what I am hoping to go for!

Sal, I didn't personally experience this understeer on a 6cyl E30 that you mention when I was on the Ring...

[DRIFTBOY]

As for handling, I have taken some weight off the front of mine and got engine in position 3 (furthest back). I have no complaints at all with it feeling 'weighty' at the front. I've had no understeer at all in it as yet, but not had it on a track.

I haven't driven one, but I'm sure a 4-pot M3 would feel a bit crisper turning into a corner, but personally, I need the 6-pot growl!

Get it on track and you will understand what understeer means.......after getting a passanger ride in an E30 M3 or Demlotcrew's S14 engined 318iS.

The M3 can take bends at very high speeds and maintain balance that a normal E30 with a 6cyl engine could never dream of even with uprated suspension.

However, accelerating out of bends and on straights the M30 way is in another league compared to a stock M3 (200 bhp).

Sal

Swings and roundabouts then I suppose.

I would be keen to blag a track ride in a well set up 4-pot E30 or M3 to see the difference for myself (not that I don't believe you Sal!).

I need some decent brakes and another exhaust silencer before mine goes anywhere a track day though!

[Kos]

m3 m3 turbos , old news !

on a serious note for a track theo, coming from my experience and m30 powered car wouldnt be the best, for a drift machine and general hooligan car the it will work.

no matter how good you suspension set up it still will understeer and run wide, and coming our the tail would step out

with 245 section rears (and before dips and i turbo'd the M3) it still struggled for grip

[DRIFTBOY]

No probs - we should try and pick a dry day though!
I should have my H&R anti-roll bars fitted by then too!

Yes, would be good if it's dry! I'm thinking of getting a set of those H&R's myself, and a full set of powerflex bushes, (which I seem to remember you having as well?) so I think if I can ride in your car will be a really useful experience. Infact, you've also got a zone and uprated cam, which is also what I am hoping to go for!

You are correct, I have all Powerflex bushes, Schrick cam and zone chip.

This week I'm also fitting new wishbones, drop links, strut top mounts and hopefully a Z3 steering rack if the Ebay seller ever gets round to sending it! (It's been nearly 2 weeks now ).

[andrewe30m3]

I used to own an m3 3.5 which now belongs to Kos. I would say go for it, as its a good conversion and a nice torquey lump with plenty of go in it.

I'd agree with comments about understeer, the m30 in mine was a big heavy lump and you could really feel the weight over the front wheels... Havnig said that, I dont know whether it had the air con front springs on it? (kos?) As alpina used them in place of the originals.

I understand my m3 had an alpina head, so either 245 or 260 brake, and it definately had a strong power band between 4-6,000 revs

I'd say there are better conversions to do on an m3, i'd be inclined to go for a s50, then you get both of best worlds, 6 pot and high revving... however look at mfree r whatever his name was, and it doesnt look the easiest conversion in the world? - unless you are doing the work yourself.

Anyway, the choice is yours and after having an m30 powered m3, i woudl recommend it for fast road use. Also it sounded lovely!

regards,
andrew

[Kos]

I'd agree with comments about understeer, the m30 in mine was a big heavy lump and you could really feel the weight over the front wheels... Havnig said that, I dont know whether it had the air con front springs on it? (kos?) As alpina used them in place of the originals.

bilstein shocks and standeard springs was on the original set up

I understand my m3 had an alpina head, so either 245 or 260 brake, and it definately had a strong power band between 4-6,000 revs

it had a standard head with a schrick cam, made 225bhp but bags of torque when it was "standard"

[Andyboy]

You should try the 'Ring in a 320i. No low down torque OR top end grunt! Best fun track day car I ever had was a B plate E28 518i with a raging 105 bhp at the spare wheel. You don't have the luxury of being able to power out of corners so you have to conserve what little grunt you have. If you try a drift it just gets bogged down. Best ever moment was outbraking an E36 M3 into Quarry. This wasn't intentional; I'd faded the brakes slowing from 90-100 mph into Quarry so had to steer and pray. I prefer a car with little power to be honest - they're more fun. You squeeze litterally everything from the car, skinny tyres howling and motor revving its tits off.

The last time the Gusmeister came out with me in the 320i at the 'Ring he didn't understand why I didn't use the brakes. "Because I Feckin' can't afford to!".

Best track car ever (for me at least) - 140 bhp 318Ti Compact. Just the right balance of power and grip. Lovely.

[Andyboy]

For an out and out track car, the M30 is possibly the last engine you want in there. For road cars they're okay but to be honest you'll find a standard 200 bhp S14 more than enough to go squirting about in. Anyone can have a big torquey engine and go powering out of corners, but conserving power/torque and having a car that steers like a go kart is much better.
As for rebuilds - to get 250 bhp from an M30 costs money, and lots of it. If the S14 in the car you're on about still runs okay it's not going to too expensive to freshen it up - rings, shells, rod bolts, gaskets, a chain and guide rail plus a few shims. Thy're actually a very simple engine, a 16 valve M10 in essence. Things like remapping the ECU and fitting the bigger throttle bodies aren't stupidly expensive so a real 220+ bhp isn't out of the equation.

[Theo]

Haha, quality! I must admit that driving an old shitter is great fun, I had a 318i briefly, which was great fun down the local lanes, if you spun into a hedge it was funny, if it blew up - it would be funny!

You should bring an old turd out to the ring next year on one of the trips!

[Andyboy]

Haha, quality! I must admit that driving an old shitter is great fun
You should bring an old turd out to the ring next year on one of the trips!

Consider it done. Here's the 518i at Combe......

[Andyboy]

And here is the original (carburettor) 518 racer from 2000. The batey fellow on the left is Pacerpete, the handsome devil on the right is Phil Crouch.

This 90 bhp marvel was purchased from Southampton car auctions for twenty pounds. It sported a set of original 750iL dished alloys but the original 20 spoke rims were in the boot and back seat. It was in Gazelle beige and so a mate and I formed Gazelle Racing. We devised the Gazelle Racing 'Raging Bull' conversion which was to remove the air cleaner so it snorted through its 2BE Pierburb carburettor like a trooper.
B643YUW was driven all day at Combe and I only span it once. After this I drove it to Hamburg and back. I ran it out of oil on the A14 from Harwich so I had to add a litre or two of oil. It finally expired in Banbury with no oil pressure and a crank knock like you've never heard.

The red one above also cost £20. I did a whole day at Combe, drove it 200 miles home and sold it for £175.

[Theo]

Just read your post about the M30 vs S14. I'm increasingly thinking that it may be a bit of a step backwards putting the m30 in an m3. Shame really, as I've shelled out for an engine/box/prop/rad etc etc.

That is some impressive body roll you're getting on that E28, looks like great fun. I really want to get down to some track days next year, Brands is quite local to me but seems to be one of the more expensive.

[Andyboy]

I reckon Croft is the one to do - it's superb. It's totally flat and you can see way ahead, plan your speed and technique. The two corners Sunny In and Sunny Out are tricky - you take Sunny In under power and back off for Sunny Out - backing off sharply makes the tail drift out nicely.

It's cheap as well but a long way from you! I might drum up an en masse Zone trip up there next August, using my gaff as a stop over.

[Theo]

That white car is utterly horrific, perhaps that is the car which has led to his terrible aversion to chrome turds?

I think a zone track day would be brilliant btw, definately up for that!