Tuning Talk(standalone)

[Andy335Touring]

Zoners save the day again, how lucky were you Andy !!!

Very lucky !

Some things not right with it though as it still wants to put that duff map in the ecu when you make changes.

First thing i did was load the proper map, check the fuel map was the right one and fired up the engine, much to my releif it fired OK !

I then adjusted the rev limit, programed the ecu and checked the fuel map and it had gone back to the duff map

So i reloaded the good map and didn't change any thing, better safe than sorry !

At this point the battery went on the lap top and i didn't have the power lead so i never had the chance to look in to why it was loading the wrong map or get around to changing the flow rates on the ecu so i couldn't fit my new injectors

I'm guessing it's some thing to do with the serial/usb adapter or may be i have down loaded the wrong version of the O/S from the web page ?

I will see if i can get to the bottom of it next time

Is there a similar feature in Emerald peeps ?

I'm not sure TBH, i'm not very hands on when it comes to changing the mapping as you know

[lentec]

Is there a similar feature in Emerald peeps ?

not that ive seen!
would be bloody usefull tho

[astondg]

Here are the maps for my 323i from the EMS Stinger:
Fuel: http://www.members.westnet.com.au/astondg/FuelMap.jpg
Ignition: http://www.members.westnet.com.au/aston ... ionMap.jpg

EDIT: I meant to say that the right hand side scale is rpm sites (not sure how it has been set up but standard is every 500rpm and rpm limiter is 6550). Along the bottom is vacuume in kpa. There is no TPS.

It doesn't have a turbo though, that's just for a standard engine with full exhaust (incl. 6 branch) and AFM replaced with MAP sensor.

I can definately NOT recommend a standalone for a 323i (or at the very least don't get an EMS Stinger). The car drives the same as standard, except that it doesn't start or idle as well when it is cold, it uses a LOT of petrol and according to the dyno it is making about standard power. That is after it has been dyno tuned twice by people who should know what they are doing.

When I start it after it has been siting for a while I have to hold it at 2000+rpm. If I let it drop below that it will splutter and stall regardless of how much throttle I use to try to bring the rpm back up. I think this might have something to do with the settings (maybe Percentage foe Cold Crank?) rather than the map? Anyone have any ideas?

It also doesn't use the decelaration fuel cut (turn off the injectors in decelaration) because they said that on the track that can give a flat spot if I back off and then get back on the throttle and the extra fuel can also help with cooling. I can turn this on myself except that it's not just on and off, I have to choose something between -99kpa and 0kpa. Is anyone using this and can you give me an idea about what I should try it at? Would the map have to be adjusted then? If I can change it I will use it on the road and then turn it off when I go to the track.

Thanks,

Aston

[Ant]

Aston, looks as though your fuel cut is triggered when the intake mani pressure is below a certain level, the only thing I can suggest is see what the vac is @ idle and set the fuel cut just below that , when you snap the throttle shut the vac pressure changes , on mine it drops below 25Kpa then picks back up to 35ish for idle, I'm actual;ly using both the TPS raw ADC value and the vac to trigger decel/ fuel cut settings

give it a try mate, you can always swop it back again

HTH

[astondg]

Thanks, I'll try that. Hopefully it helps a bit. I still am not happy with this standalone but then the main reason I did it was so that I am ready for whatever I want in the future, like a turbo or maybe a different engine. I'm not sure if any of that is going to be happening though, I don't have a lot of money and I am thinking about selling my car and getting something else. Mine is just a bit anoying to live with (although a lot of that is probably to do with the way it idles and runs), kind of feels like I am driving a race car with a wild cam and it's noisy (whole car) and stuff. That would be fine if it had the performance then but it doesn't seem to go any better than standard.

Aston

[lentec]

Cheers for sending a copy of your map andy

Been looking at your ignition map think it solved my POP between
gears! my map was loadsite 0 = 0s 1500rpm up! yours is 45

Gave it a run at 30 sure enough no pop
Will try rasing it a bit more in the morning.

[Turbo-Brown]

Hmmm, wonder if BMW actually got pretty much the most they could from the 332 head if you can't get any more power.

My experience of overrun fuel cutoff has been horrible so it'd be interesting to hear what it's like with aftermarket ECUs.

[astondg]

Ok I checked the vacuume at idle and it was between -50 and -60kpa (idle is a little bit up and down) so I set the cut off to -65kpa and went for a drive. It worked just like Turbo-Brown said, hard to hold a constant speed because I would accelerate a bit then coast and then go to accelerate again (my street is a little hilly) and the injectors were off so it didn't go straight away and then it wnet too much. It was also like that when I changed gear and tried to get back on the power.

I did a datalog and during deceleration vacuume is between -70 and -80kpa so I might try it again at -70 or -75 and see if that helps a bit. It might not get that low with just small throttle changes so they won't cut out but they will on bigger deceleration, does it work like that?

I just finished a tank of petrol that included going to the track and consumption might actually be better this time . I also have to check my trip meter thing because I think it might be slow and that would make my calculations for fuel consumption a bit wrong.

Looks like the standard 323i maps are very good (even with the older computer, is it L-Jet?) but I think Ant gets a bit more just with the zone chips and just with the fuel? Maybe mine has an extra 5hp or something, I can't tell any difference but 5hp wouldn't be too noticable.

This thread is very helpful, thanks Ant and everyone.

Aston

[Ant]

Aston, try a fuel cut figure below the lowest idle reading you have logged, add a time delay if possible.

your car should have a stable vac @ idle, try adding a small fuel filter inline on the MAP sensor feed from the manifold, it will act as a damper and should help with a more stable reading for both you and the ECU to use

I have it so that when both the TPS and vac values are reached, fuel will be cut after 1 second, thats the key to removing the lurching especially in stop/start traffic.

the zone 1 chip has a similar fuel cut delay,. its 0.5s on the motronic and works well.

as I said before, have a play about mate, your time is alot cheaper than a dyno operators, and again, worst case revert to the map you started with

on my Megasquirt I have revised the mapping 67 times now

[astondg]

When you say below do you mean I go to -65kpa or -45kpa? These are negative so I guess below means -65kpa, but then the smaller number is 45 (ignoring the negatives). I'll see if I can add a time delay, thanks for the info.

The idle speed is up and down a bit though (it kind of surges between about 650 and 900rpm) so I think that is why the vacuume isn't constant? I'll see about the small fuel filter though, thanks.

It sounds like it would be better with a TPS as well but I don't have one.

I'm happy to play around with it, I just don't won't to damage anything. I think this fuel cut shouldn't really cause any problems though and like you said I can go back to the original settings. 67 times , I think I might be getting a little bit tired of it after that many. I guess if you are getting results though it wouldn't be as bad.

Thanks,

Aston

[Jon_Bmw]

Aston the thing is, that i'm sure you're aware of is that Ant is tuning for a turbo, and they suddenly come on strong, so you need fuel quick, but then when you are back at idle you need to get the very large injectors not to flood the engine with fuel and get a smooth idle. Hence the poor git has had to change it 67 times probably.

[jmc330i]

Would the Megasquirt stuff be ok to run my S50?

Ive been thinking about this and getting rid of the MAF (and possibly turbo or supercharging the S50 in the future), but Im not sure where I stand with the Vanos. I know some people remove the Vanos and lock the Cam but I would prefer to keep the Vanos - I know Motec will run Vanos but its big money.

As mine is a 3.0ltr S50 it has an engine ECU and a separate Vanos controller/ECU (where as the 3.2 Evo has an all-in-one ECU) so would it be possible to keep the Vanos ECU and run standalone management or do I need to wait for the lottery win and go the Motec route?

[Ant]

The Megasquirt could certainly run the S50 but the Vanos will complicate things a little, you will need to modify the outputs on the ECU to enable you to trigger the existing Vanos controller, I imagine its triggered by setpoints in the existing map or a lok up table for certain load sites

You could use the MS to run the fuelling side of the car on its own, this would allow the existing ECU to control the spark and Vanos as normal, it will have no idea the injectors are no longer connected, this would enable you to remove the MAF and give you the ability to remap for more power and make comprehensive changes later on should you go FI

As you are already running individual coils you can use the MSnEDIS code setup on the MS hardware and add the spark control quite easily

If you do buy the Ms unit may I recommend the V3 PCB for your application, there is a VR conditioner circuit built into those and a large area for prototyping or adding additional processor output circuits as required by the Vanos

its a big step James, but almost certainly worth it for the sheer flexability it gives you , plus the knowledge of it being all your own work and pretty much unique

HTH, oh and if you want a kit , let me know M8 either pre assembled and tested or in full kit form ready for some DIYing

[jmc330i]

You could use the MS to run the fuelling side of the car on its own, this would allow the existing ECU to control the spark and Vanos as normal, it will have no idea the injectors are no longer connected, this would enable you to remove the MAF and give you the ability to remap for more power and make comprehensive changes later on should you go FI

I think thats what I wanted to hear!?!

So I would keep the BMW ECU and Vanos ECU and then add the MS to run the fuelling - removing the MAF. The BMW ECU would just be used for the spark and Vanos control and not be effected by the MS running the fuelling.
I could then (with Laptop) alter the fuelling for example??

As I understand the Single Vanos on the S50, the inlet cam is advanced 12.5 degrees at speeds upto 5000rpm. Above 5000rpm the cam comes back to its original position - so it seems to me to be in part engine speed related. I think its also depandant on throttle position - the more throttle is used, the more the cam is advanced. Im not 100% sure if thats right, but I remember reading it somewhere, Im happy to be corrected.

If the above is correct, would removing the fuelling and maybe spark functions from the BMW ECU effect the Vanos operation in any way?

its a big step James, but almost certainly worth it for the sheer flexability it gives you , plus the knowledge of it being all your own work and pretty much unique

Its one hell of a step, but Im definitely thinking its the right one to take. Im thinking more and more on a daily basis about turboing the S50 in the future, so I may as well start with the kit, get the S50 running and learn how to use it, then when funds and time allow move on up to FI.

Fozzymonster (Mark) has sent me the link to the MS forum, so when I get some time from work I will register and have a good read up.
I hope you dont mind Ant, but I will probably be calling on your expertise when I have questions or find something I dont understand!!!

[Ant]

Ask Away mate, If I cant help the guys on the MSefi board certainly can.

I read up on all the standalone options and it came down to MS or Emerald in the end, the MS is more open source but thats its real disadvantage, there are a lot of options when it comes to programming and what version/options etc, also the hardaware, you can build the ECU in a few configurations depending on what you know you need. bascally, you can omit some components that you know you will not require

you can run Ms as megasquirt fuel only
MSnS for squirt and spark
MSnS-E for squirt and spark extra, fuel, spark and higher res 12x12 fuel/spakr tables with dual table option( this is what myself and Fozzy are using BTW )
MSnEDIS for wasted spark

there are many more options, all of which require you to swop/alter files and settings over in both firmware and software.

Basically its very much under constant devolment, where as the emerald(etc) is fully devoloped, the Emerald GUI is awesome, the Ms is a CLI shell with a GUI tuning section

both work well and are DIYable,

Look into the Vanos control , that will ultimately decide what options you have

[Gunni]

MAF is needed for Vanos operations along with ignition ,

I would suggest leaner then 14.5 idle mixture,

[astondg]

From what I have heard and read Motec is the way to go, except for the price. A lot of rally cars and other cars used for motorsport end up with Motecs, even after using some of the other systems. Motec has support for most things, including VANOS and drive by wire throttles, already built in (or as an option) and I think most people say it is the best. BUT it is a lot more expensive than the other systems, especially the Megasquirt. I would have really prefered a Motec over the EMS Stinger I have now but even including fitting and tuning I think the basic Motec was still 1.5 times the price just for the unit, not including fitting and stuff.

I am sure you can get the Megasquirt to work though, there seems to be a lot of support for it now, just not always in the same place. It seems like it requires a bit of research to get the best out of it and to get it to work with different setups, that is probably all part of the fun though and once it's done you will know a lot more about how it works.

Aston

[Ant]

Remap 68 just completed.

The unit counts each time you revise anything as a remap but TBH thats misleading

from my original basemap I have made 3 total revisions to get where I am currently, the last beeing to add more warmup enrichment now the weather is colder in the mornings and evenings, I can only do this now as it simply wasn't cold enough when I first fitted the unit, its pretty good but could do with further tweaks to get it 100%

The previous revisions gave me better MAP sensor resoloution in the range I'm operating in, did have locations up to 22 psi , I reduced the top limit to 8.5 psi and closed all the setpoints up basically, easy enough to do now I'm less worried it will all go pear shaped

I share all my maps with Fozzy as his setup is very close to what I have, Lentec and Alex run the emerald so maps cannot be shared quite so easily, however the maps posted have shown a common trend so its all useful information.

[hoshy]

so guys, ant, lentec fozzy andy... where you guys up to now?

[Ant]

Len is sidelined for a few days

Alex is ready for MOT then more fun to follow

Mark is using datalogs to refine his map to run to Target tables now setup

I'm at the same stage as Mark , basemap is a perfecto as I can get it on the road, datalogs are refining the VE table where its required using the target, measured AFR via WB02 , EGO crossover load, TPS etc etc

Its all been a whole lot of fun and I'd do it all again tomorrow ( in fact I am :lol)

Once I'm 99% happy she'll be having another roller session locally, then more boost and start again

All being well you should have some FI recruits for the RR day you've pencilled

[e30_Turbo]

I love MEGASQUIRT, end of, it's awesome, can do so so much BUT.....

There is lots to learn that is more technical, like setting it all up from a very basic level and if chosen you could even build the whole thing yourself (as is Toby). If you are that way inclined I'm sure it will all make total sense, easy to understand and straightforward, for me, not gonna happen .

Once the hardware is sorted and fitted, ensured all the files are right and you have coms, burn in a base map and off you go. Both Ant and I had done lots of research into all of this but with a base map to start with, infact a whole MSQ file (a complete engine setup for a m20b25) it should be very easy.

It will consume you for months, it's a drug and the best bit, it gets better the more you time you spend with it!!

I've not been near a RR yet and I've shown near perfect AFR's throughout 90% of my map, only top boost and low revs are still taking some fine tuning. I knew nothing 18months ago, well basic stuff and now look at me, tuning my own engine

Has been worth every penny many times over

[hoshy]

nice work gentlemen!

What's happened to len? I didn't get chance to chat and have a look at the beast at the last lakeside.

Ant, the car was amazing when sal took me and Simon out at the last (last but one) ace meet. Is it still running on about 5.5? have you got it mapped up to WOT now?

Mark, dude what can I say.. Your sig tells the story

[Mops]

Hello chaps.

I'm myself in the process of tuning megasquirt on my e30. just got it all installed two days ago. I got MSII on V3 board and LC-1 wideband.

after several hours, i found out that tuning is much more difficult than i thought. yes, i can use my wideband to get me to target AFR's, but what are they correct AFR's to start with ?

same with ignition (I'm controlling ignition aswell). what would be considered correct timing map ? If i''m running too advanced timing, first thing i hear is valve bouncing , so on that basis I can retard it there and there.

i find funing ver difficult, as i have to drive the car, watch the road, watch the screen with gauges and make educated guesses.....

anyways... any help and pointers appreciated....

[Ant]

as a guide you want 13:1 around idle

15:1 off idle to 3K ish under low load

14.2:1 over 3K @ low loads

12.5 for max power @ wot

with regards to timing

you'll want 9 @ idle
10 up to 2K then increase 22 ish up to max @44 degrees on a sliding scale

I have an M20 na basemap for spark , I can export the maps if you wanted, not sure if they'll translate onto the MS2 code though

have you turned your AFR target tables on on MT ?

if all else fails use the "generate VE table" function and start from there using your target AFR and the "autotune" feature, then tweak until it feels right, autotune is slow to see changes so slow throttle translations are required to get the best from it, dont forget to turn your EGO step size to zero and kill the fuel cut and accel enrich.

HTH

drop me an email dude, glad to help out ant@e30zone.co.uk

[Mops]

oh, thanks dude for your support. re maps, it would be very usefull if you could just post screenshots . based on what you said, i'll produce afr and ignition maps.

i started with the generated map, and i have to say that generated map was pretty decent - it fired up and idle'd first time all good

so yeah, i'll just make a littel excell spreadsheet with will create and smooth out my tables auomatically.

only odd think i noticed so far, at WOT, around 4krpm range, I have to drop timing down to 21 deg, otherwise i get valves bouncing. 44 degrees is heaps.. how much timing range does the stock dizzy cover ??? I mean i did run my engine at 0* and at 36* - that alot for the dizzy ! but you say 44* ? OMG WTF ?

. bottom line. you you could post screenshots of you afr, ignition and ve tables, as a reference, it would be great.

[Andy335Touring]

Ant, are those AFR's the best for a F/I or N/A engine ?

[pete1979]

ant this all sounds real good on with a m20/m50 turbo at the min ill call you tomorrow see if you can help with a ms set up cheers

[Turbo-Brown]

only odd think i noticed so far, at WOT, around 4krpm range, I have to drop timing down to 21 deg, otherwise i get valves bouncing.

Just out of interest, which valves are bouncing?

[Mops]

Just out of interest, which valves are bouncing?

intake or exhaust valves. cant tell which exacly.

it's the sound often old (not only old, but you more commanly see this in old cars) cars make when trying to accelerate from standstill, when from low rpm's thre's too much throttle applied and the clutch it relased quickly, resulting in a launch from very low rpm (around idle speed) with alot of throttle applied. It's cheracteristick clonk-clonk-clonk sound. I hope i'm describing it accurately. aswell it often heppens at high engine loads while at low rpm (many stock cars run too much ignition advance there). this can be cure by retarding ignition in these areas.

anyways, my car does that on stock ECU, across all rpm's @ wot, when 91 octane petrol is used. on MS i have to tune it down to 21* at ~4000rpm to stop that occuring. funny thinkg, over rhat rpm range, ignition can be advanced to values over 30*.

similar ignition values can be obseve on stock DME 173 map for m20b25 (if i could attach a pic i would.)

[Turbo-Brown]

You sure it's not just pinking/knock that you're hearing?

Never heard of incorrect ignition settings causing the valves to bounce, only revs at or above the harmonic frequency of the valve gear.

[chip-3door]

Ant, are those AFR's the best for a F/I or N/A engine ?

They are for a lightly FI'd engine by the looks of them.

When running a lot of boost you need to be in the high 11s!

[Ant]

yeah sorry, FI afrs posted, 12.5 is allegedly best for max HP but nothing is gospel in this game, each engine has its own sweet spot, the key is finding it

I'm doing the racecar.com tech 1 a full Msns-E setup in a couple of weeks, thats NA but a cammed 2.7, be interesting to see the final results

Andy , how you getting on with your LC-1 dude ? and my apologies I got as far as boxing your Corky Bell books then stopped, shoot me your addy again and I'll get them back to you for defo this week

[chip-3door]

yeah sorry, FI afrs posted, 12.5 is allegedly best for max HP but nothing is gospel in this game, each engine has its own sweet spot, the key is finding it

I'm doing the racecar.com tech 1 a full Msns-E setup in a couple of weeks, thats NA but a cammed 2.7, be interesting to see the final results

Andy , how you getting on with your LC-1 dude ? and my apologies I got as far as boxing your Corky Bell books then stopped, shoot me your addy again and I'll get them back to you for defo this week

12.5 is too lean on a turbo'd car if you are running much boost.

Its what people tend to run to on a dyno in a closely controlled environment to get a good power figure, but its then generally made richer before instalation into a car or it would more than likely expire quickly!

[Ant]

12.5:1 is giving me c900 degrees EGT under boost so seems about right for my current 6psi( low I know ) any richer and the temp climbs over 1100, not good

I need to turn my boost back up but TBH, I'm liking my fuel consumption much better now than @ 10 psi

[chip-3door]

12.5:1 is giving me c900 degrees EGT under boost so seems about right for my current 6psi( low I know ) any richer and the temp climbs over 1100, not good

I need to turn my boost back up but TBH, I'm liking my fuel consumption much better now than @ 10 psi

I havent ever worked with the megasquirt so not sure how capable it is, but can you not set boost based on TPS vs RPM?

On my cossie i can set it so that 80% throttle will only result in 20 psi and then 10% throttle will give me 26psi etc, so you can then have it all at once, for normal use you simply use a little less throttle and it manages the boost accordingly.