m30 Handling Issues ?

[Joshy]

Alright, bare with me lads, I'm new to the world of e30's.

Basically, I'm looking to pick myself up a tatty e30, restoring it over the next couple of months and then using it as a daily driver.

I'm pretty much settled on the e30 platform, but the engines on offer leave a lot to be desired if I'm to be brutally honest, 90 horse power isn't going to cut it for long with me, especially since I'm use to the sheer torquey brute of the Inline 6 in my MK3 Supra, so I've been rather interested in the m30 I've been reading so much about.

I've decided that I want to go with an m30 335 conversion, there is one problem I can see in my mind —a How the extra weight is going to affect the handling.

I've heard from a lot of people that the big six makes the car really nose heavy in all e30's apart from the tourings (which aren't really my cup of tea to be honest). I've heard from a friend that knows a guy with an m30 and he says that he just can't push his car to the limit because it's just so damn nose heavy.

I don't expect to be at the track every day in fact this car is probably going to spend most of its time cursing the streets of south London, but when I do reach the twisties, I want it to be an enjoyable experience.
So m30 owners, is there handling really that bad?

Another problem I didn't know existed until yesterday was the issue with the m30 and the Z3/e36 steering rack. Is there a “cheapâ€a workable situation to this?

Also, other than the battery and res relocated to the boot, is there anything else I could/should do to counter the weight of the engine?

Planning to put the m30 in a 316-320 2dr or cab

Thanks

Josh

[jkarran]

Why not choose a lighter or shorter engine if you're worried about the weight distribution or are you just after a straightforward, well documented conversion so set on the M30?

Next best option is going to be moving everything you can as far back as possible. Obviously there'll come a point where you get diminishing returns on your work.

jk

[DRIFTBOY]

Personally I don't think M30 engined E30s are that bad, they'll never be as nimble as a four cylinder model but makes up for it on the straights.
I can't see that an M30d car would be a lot different to a 325i with air con.?

On the road I really have to be pushing very hard to get any understeer, sadly not had chance to try it on track yet.

I have battery and washer bottle in the boot as you said, I also removed ALL soundproofing from inside and outside the bulkhead, fog lamps, mud flaps, and a few bits of under bonnet trim.
A composite bonnet would save a fair bit of front end weight too.

E36 / Z3 rack is an issue with clearance to the exhaust manifold.
Even the standard E30 steering coupling is very close!
The only way round it that I can see is some cutting and re-welding of the manifold just before it joins the downpipe, which will also need to be re-shaped.

Or turbocharge it!

[Joshy]

Why not choose a lighter or shorter engine if you're worried about the weight distribution or are you just after a straightforward, well documented conversion so set on the M30?

Next best option is going to be moving everything you can as far back as possible. Obviously there'll come a point where you get diminishing returns on your work.

jk

I like the idea of the m30 because it seems like a cheap and relatively easy way to imitate the touqre that I so much in the supra.

It's not a racing car, weight distribution isn't the be all or end all factor here, I just don't want the car to handle like the engine fitted is obviously not suppose to be there.

And the potential Z3 rack issue is starting to annoy me a tad.

[Joshy]

Personally I don't think M30 engined E30s are that bad, they'll never be as nimble as a four cylinder model but makes up for it on the straights.
I can't see that an M30d car would be a lot different to a 325i with air con.?

On the road I really have to be pushing very hard to get any understeer, sadly not had chance to try it on track yet.

I have battery and washer bottle in the boot as you said, I also removed ALL soundproofing from inside and outside the bulkhead, fog lamps, mud flaps, and a few bits of under bonnet trim.
A composite bonnet would save a fair bit of front end weight too.

E36 / Z3 rack is an issue with clearance to the exhaust manifold.
Even the standard E30 steering coupling is very close!
The only way round it that I can see is some cutting and re-welding of the manifold just before it joins the downpipe, which will also need to be re-shaped.

Or turbocharge it!

I was hoping that you'd post in here.

I think I remember you saying that if you made a hard left, the steering would lock up (or something along those lines). I've got to ask just how hard the left turn has to be to make the car lock up? Is it likely to effect day to day driveability?

While on the subject of turbo manifolds, would I need to get myself a custom jobby made up to avoid the steering rack problem, or will any turbo m30 manifold do?

I'm getting a little ahead of myself now

[Theo]

The car isn't undriveable with the m30, you can feel that the car is a little nose heavy, but just adjust your driving style accordingly.

[DRIFTBOY]

I agree with that Theo.

My steering coupling / manifold issue does affect it every day, I have to be very careful. Even braking from 15 mph and turning into a parking space at work I get contact!

I haven't tried to sort this out since I decided to turbo it but I'm sure I could make it better. I might even try at the weekend just out of curiosity.

The 745 turbo manifold are only suitable for left hand drive cars (hence it being a lhd only model).

I think there are after market (Alpina ?) turbo manifolds for the M30 but they are very rare and command good prices.

I was planning to construct a log type manifold in the style of Toby Unna's, unless a suitable one crops up.
I can't find Toby's thread now, it's somewhere in the depths of this section, about page 18 last time I looked, it needs to be bumped!

[Joshy]

This thread? http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... hlight=745
I've considered going down the turbocharged route off the bat, but I can't imagine getting a mani build up is going to be cheap...

Driftboy, with all the problems you're having with the e36/z3 rack, would you still recommend buying one for a m30, or do you reckon I should I stick with the bog standard e30 rack?

I've got my heart set on a m30 conversion now... I need torque, and a lot of it.

[DRIFTBOY]

That's the thread!
It's a good read, and it's a big inspiration to me.

I like the M30 conversion, I like the E36 and even more so the Z3 rack conversion.
If you are prepared to get busy and patient with a mig welder then I'm sure they could be made to work well together.
Stiffer than standard engine mounts could help also, which I might try sometime too.

I'm sure you'd be happy with the torque, I regularly pull up a steep hill on my way home from work in 5th gear at 30mph. It doesn't pull hard there but it does pull it without fuss.

I once towed a mate's Mk2 Escort and I still pulled away in 2nd gear even on a slight incline.

They seem to be happy revving hard too, although there's not much advantage, if any, pulling more than about 6000rpm.

[oze30]

I found if you scrub off speed early and balance the car on the throttle your usually ok. (but then again I was in a touring)

[Speedtouch]

Tbh, the M30B35 feels nose-heavy even in an E34, which weighs overall around 1.5 tonnes compared to the E30 at around 1.2 tonnes, but it's a nice torquey old boat anchor with far more low-down grunt than the M20B25.

Apparently, the M30 water pumps wear rapidly (just had to change mine, after the bearing broke up) though otherwise they're tough engines.

I'd personally be petrified of a car where the steering UJ fouled the engine!

[Joshy]

Hmm, this is not sounding too good for the M30.

One the the reasons I'm looking for a 3 series is because I wanted something with that could cruise like a 5 series, but could be a half decent track weapon like the MX5s I'm considering.

Is it worth looking into a M50 swap? Or would both engines affect handling similarly?

I'd like the low end grunt of the m30 for the street, but I'm not willing to pay the price of crappy handling.

[oze30]

It only handles badly if you don't set it up right.


Or buy a touring and have perfect handling!

[Morat]

do a touring or turbo an M20?

[Joshy]

I'll look into the possibly of turboing a m20. Not at all interested in tourings.

[Morat]

Tourings rule (and you get the better suspension/all round disks) even on the 316
but each to their own!

[gareth]

one of the big problems with M30 conversions is the lack of springs in a high enough rate to get it to handle well. i'm now running Leda coilovers and it handles very well indeed. a lot better than when i had konis on and a M20 in there.

understeer is possible by feeding the power in gradually mid corner but a lot of that's just due to the torque and ability to accelerate that hard mid corner! i personally find that it's not a lot worse than a M20 and easily corrected.

with some fiddling (shims between the block and engine mounts on the o/s) i've all but cured the column clearance issues with a standard coupling, manifold and downpipes. i think that a Z3 / E36 rack could be fitted with more modification to the manifolds, moving the engine over a bit (a golf servo will allow enough room) and maybe offsetting the rack itself (limiting lock one way a bit)

another option with the rack would be to fit a 'proper' E30 quickrack kit but these are only available in manual 2.5 turn format. may be a bit heavy for road use but it saves going to the gym!

[oze30]

Tourings don't look naff!! They're the best around. 4 doors, 5 seats, boot space big enough to sleep in, practicality and best of all, they accept engine swaps better than the 2/4door. Either way you do it, turbo/blower/V6/V8/V12 etc etc etc Rotary even you can adjust the handling by playing with the suspension components. I wouldn't have done the V8 into a saloon.. even if i didn't like tourings as they would be a tad nose heavy.

BUT...


Like Morat says,

each to their own!

[leedg]

another option with the rack would be to fit a 'proper' E30 quickrack kit but these are only available in manual 2.5 turn format. may be a bit heavy for road use but it saves going to the gym!

Sorry to Hijack but where could I find one of those?

[leedg]

Is there room to have custom downpipes that would sort these issues out with the steering rack or would putting the engine further back (more bulkhead bashing) solve this problem? I ask as I really need to have full steering but i will be doing the 3.5 swap myself soon.

[karaokebykris]

Where would one aquire these 'proper' E30 quick rack jobbies?

sounds just the job for my track slag

[oze30]

guys, look in the motorsport section under z3 or e36 rack

[Joshy]

Even if I were interested in

I want to get myself a cheap case car that had seen better days and build it up into a nice car. I think that's a lot more fun than saving up a few grand and buying a minter.

Tourings seem to be pretty desirable and command higher prices than I'm willing to spend, but If the right car comes up at the right time at the right price, I'm going to buy it regardless of it being a 2dr, 4 dr, cab or touring. I'd prefer a cab or black 2dr, but with a budget of a couple of hundred quid, beggars can't be choosers.


Thanks

Josh

[gareth]

afaik, TAS used to make them but went bust.

i've just dropped rally design an email to see if they can source some.

e21 jason was looking into getting them done a while ago...
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... ic&t=24100
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... ic&t=17443

might be worth a pm?

[leedg]

EDIT: cheers gareth

Back to the other question though, would custom downpipes solve the e36 rack clearence problems?

[gareth]

that's another option but i have no idea on the clearance issues. it may be better... it may also be worse!

[leedg]

Looks like being trial and error at conversion time really then.

Tall order, but do you have any pictures of how tight it is? and the room to work with?

[FlappySocks]

Back to the other question though, would custom downpipes solve the e36 rack clearence problems?

The BTB M30 manifold is supposedly ok, but not cheap. hottuning-eu say they are looking into making one, providing there is enough interest.

[leedg]

Not cheap aint good! lol, trail and error will do, there will be a way

[FlappySocks]

I'm going to try AVO springs on my M30 conversion with a 25mm drop, and Koni adjustables on the front. There is no reason why it can't handle well. But as Gareth said, it's just about getting the correct spring rates. Take Jaguars for example. I used to have a XJ6 with a 4.0L lump, and they are physically massive engines. Bigger than the M30. Yet handling was superb. The 5.3/6.0L V12's even bigger still, yet had legendary handling that could put some smaller cars to shame. They never felt heavy to drive.

[FlappySocks]

Not cheap aint good! lol, trail and error will do, there will be a way

hottuning.eu are doing the M20 S/S manifold for £200. They told me they could do a M30 version in about two months, but I think thay are after someone to provide them with one to copy first. May be worth registering your interest with them hottuning@hottuning.eu but don't hold your breath.

[gareth]

Looks like being trial and error at conversion time really then.

Tall order, but do you have any pictures of how tight it is? and the room to work with?

have a rummage through here: it's my M30 conversion pics
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v382/ ... onversion/

[leedg]

Im not wooried bout the upfront weight, i have fk coilovers, H&R arb's and powerflex bushes all round so im not worried on that, they should cope, its just the steering lock to lock. cheers for the pics gareth

[jaffro]

have a rummage through here: it's my M30 conversion pics
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v382/ ... Touring/M3
0%20conversion/[/quote]

hi mate im just about to start this conversion ya pics will help me a lot just 1 question what r the fans from and where would i mount them and how are the wired thanks. karl

[DRIFTBOY]

would custom downpipes solve the e36 rack clearence problems?

I think it could be done, I've just been either too busy or too lazy at any one time to try it.
It would mostly need to involve getting rid of the flange between the manifold and downpipe and moving the pipe towards the block a little.

A few hours with some tubing and a mig welder should sort it out.