M50 turbos and reality check

[Gunni]

Now people talk about this and that power level and whatnot.

but do they really understand what some numbers mean in a E30 shell?

A 327i nicely tuned is very nice
A 335i can be VERY nice to drive
A 325i very low boost turbo or a S50B30 is simply awesome .
A 325i @ 8-10psi or a S50B32 is getting pretty fast
A 325i @ 400hp is AMAZING and is ridiculously fast
A 325i M50 turbo @ 1.1bar (420hp or so) vs a modified E60 M5 is this

[youtube][/youtube]

When E30´s start getting above 450hp they are simply insane.

A E30 325i M50 turbo @ 1.5bar is this
[youtube][/youtube]

The cost of turboing a 325i today isn´t as expensive as it needs to be.

ARP bolts are the only thing needed for a M20B25 to run 400hp safely on stock headgasket. And a M50 only needs a MLS gasket and ARP´s to run 500hp.

But both will run 300hp 100% stock.


M50 turbo is where it´s at

[Tommek]

That is simply INSANE

[appletree]

This is something i was thinking about the other day, at what BHP does an E30 become scarely quick?

When you daren't put your foot down with out both hands on the steering wheel and no bends in sight????

Or is the real question what BHP does an e30 become unusable as a road car and become drag strip dedicated?

Can a e30 ever be too quick ?

[UweM3]

foooocking hell!

[Rav335uk]

You forgot to list the M30b35 turbo Gunni

[Gunni]

M30 turbo is an amazing thing as well indeed

This is something i was thinking about the other day, at what BHP does an E30 become scarely quick?

When you daren't put your foot down with out both hands on the steering wheel and no bends in sight????

Or is the real question what BHP does an e30 become unusable as a road car and become drag strip dedicated?

Can a e30 ever be too quick ?

It´s of course very important to have a good suspension system where you can maintain stability at speeds, and brakes for de-accelerating.

Another important bit are the tires. They must be suitable for the power output.

What the maximum power a car has doesn´t relate to it´s unusability as you can always give it less go with your foot or lower boost setting. It´s not bad to have the ability to however go VERY fast when you want to.

[jmc330i]

And a M50 only needs a MLS gasket and ARP´s to run 500hp.

But both will run 300hp 100% stock

While 500bhp would be nice, I'd like to hear more about getting a non-vanos M50 to 300bhp

[Gunni]

That can be done on the stock ecu even with the stock MAF as well.

So you´ll need

injectors (anything above 32lb will do it fine), the ecu can be adjusted for larger injectors

rest is normal turbocharger stuff.

Manifold, turbo, pipes, intercooler, hoses, clamps, oil feed and drain and so on.

[jmc330i]

Sounds interesting

What size turbo would be best to look out for?
I'd ideally be aiming for 280-300bhp (so its about the same as my S50 was) but would also like the option to head towards 350bhp once the engine has had the required work - ARPs etc etc.

[Gunni]

For a M50 I´m leaning towards something like a GT30 or a HX35 to not block up the backend with pressure. Even if a smaller turbo would do the trick.

[Cook318IS]

how much money does it cost to get an non vanos m50 to around 370-400 bhp? I need a turbo in my life.

[Rav335uk]

Get in line

[Theo]

I want to do a wheelie in my E30, how much powers do I need?

[e30topless]

I want to do a wheelie in my E30, how much powers do I need?

you need an M42 bro

[Rav335uk]

I want to do a wheelie in my E30, how much powers do I need?

you need an M42 bro

He needs locking up

[Ilkorin]

Thanks for that! it's nice to know that you don't have to hit big power figures to make a pretty fast car. I'd almost argue that for a road car 300+ is a bit excessive, but the sheer number of people asking for 500hp makes it sound small so it's nice to get a reality check.

One thing I'd like to know is how superchargers compare on the real-world front. Obviously this depends on the charger type, but most people running eaton/rotrex builds don't seem to hit the big power numbers. Does this mean that if you were looking at forced induction a turbo is the way to go?

My personal view based on my limited knowledge is that a centrifugal blower is kind of pointless and I would fit a turbo in preference. However, it's the roots/twin screw blowers that I'm interested in because of their low speed boost (and lower efficiency - but let's not go there :p)...

Long story short, what are your views on superchargers in comparison to all this turbo stuff?

[ImysE30]

I can't wait

[Gunni]

how much money does it cost to get an non vanos m50 to around 370-400 bhp? I need a turbo in my life.

about the same as 500hp

[Gunni]

Thanks for that! it's nice to know that you don't have to hit big power figures to make a pretty fast car. I'd almost argue that for a road car 300+ is a bit excessive, but the sheer number of people asking for 500hp makes it sound small so it's nice to get a reality check.

One thing I'd like to know is how superchargers compare on the real-world front. Obviously this depends on the charger type, but most people running eaton/rotrex builds don't seem to hit the big power numbers. Does this mean that if you were looking at forced induction a turbo is the way to go?

My personal view based on my limited knowledge is that a centrifugal blower is kind of pointless and I would fit a turbo in preference. However, it's the roots/twin screw blowers that I'm interested in because of their low speed boost (and lower efficiency - but let's not go there :p)...

Long story short, what are your views on superchargers in comparison to all this turbo stuff?

I would select a turbocharger each and every time.

given the same power goals for a turbo vs. supercharger the turbo will require less boost which is safer and longer lasting for the engine.

so knowing this you can size your turbo to fulfill your power needs and this coupled with you making or getting a good turbo manifold, split pulse preferably the turbo will come on early , very early.

I´m talking 500hp capable turbos providing full boost before 4k.
So you can imagine what a 350hp capable turbo can do when done right.

On my friends M20B25 with a tiny T3 we where seeing insta-boost totally by throttle and max boost as early as 2000rpm.

[ross_jsy]

This is my plan once I have the chasis up to scratch (R.E. brakes, suspension and making sure the diff doesn't rip itself out). Was aiming for the 500hp mark with reliability a big factor. At the moment I have a non vanos m50 in the car, but also have a m52b28 in the shed. Which would you recomend? And if it is the m50, think I should build it into a m50b28?

[Jonsku]

There's no such thing as "too much power" You just need to build the whole car according to the power output of the engine. Normal 325 brakes and suspension aren't the best in the world as standard..

Anyhow, my friends M50 E30 turbo (~350hp) is "quick" but not "fast", but i guess S38 turbo with 700-900hp is very fast

[Gunni]

This is my plan once I have the chasis up to scratch (R.E. brakes, suspension and making sure the diff doesn't rip itself out). Was aiming for the 500hp mark with reliability a big factor. At the moment I have a non vanos m50 in the car, but also have a m52b28 in the shed. Which would you recomend? And if it is the m50, think I should build it into a m50b28?

If you have the ability then swap the 2.8 crank, pistons and rods in there. I don´t remember but if the 2.5 rods are shorter then they might work to lower compression but that needs to be carefully looked at.

[leeparkes]

That can be done on the stock ecu even with the stock MAF as well.

So you´ll need

injectors (anything above 32lb will do it fine), the ecu can be adjusted for larger injectors

rest is normal turbocharger stuff.

Manifold, turbo, pipes, intercooler, hoses, clamps, oil feed and drain and so on.

So your saying it can be run safely on stock managment, interested

[fowler]

i can agree with Mr Gunni on this one an e30 with a turbo is a beast.
Mine has not been on a rolling road for bhp runs yet but i am at 1.6 bar of boost an a low comp 2.7 turbo build and its insane.
O/T Gunni you have a PM

[Gunni]

That can be done on the stock ecu even with the stock MAF as well.

So you´ll need

injectors (anything above 32lb will do it fine), the ecu can be adjusted for larger injectors

rest is normal turbocharger stuff.

Manifold, turbo, pipes, intercooler, hoses, clamps, oil feed and drain and so on.

So your saying it can be run safely on stock managment, interested

Yes it can as long as the MAF can measure the air coming it it´s not that hard. But you do need someone who has access to the important bits of the ecu to actually change it for bigger injectors and then sort out fuelling and ignition on a dyno.

This sorted and it will work just fine. I think the stock M50 maf runs out at 300hp or so, but few tricks can make it last just a bit higher

[leeparkes]

Im guessing a Non vanos lump is better to use, or is it, or does it matter?

Cheers

[Baz666]

someone told me that the non vanos was better Lee

[fowler]

non vanos slighty better IMHO but an M20 turbo is a weapon i have a scalp list that grow everytime i pull it out of the garage.

[Gunni]

Non vanos or Vanos M50 it doesn´t matter. They both do it all nicely.

[Coyote_ar]

Thats one of the best arguments for a reallity check ive ever seen

Its easy to start throwing out really large numbers, but its hard to relate that to car performance if this is your first turbo build.

I have set up my "HP roof" at 400hp (lets call it 320-350whp), but some days i start dreaming of even more ... when i havent even tried the 400hp yet.

Is this just me, or it happens to anyone else?

[Jon_Bmw]

But how long is it all going to last...realistically. Hopefully we won't need another reality check!

No one really knows until it goes bang, but my guess is it wouldn't be that long. Doubling the power on standard compression and pistons is a recipe for things going wrong IMO.

Still if it goes wrong you just fit another £400 engine, but for some people/customers that isn't an option.

[fowler]

But how long is it all going to last...realistically. Hopefully we won't need another reality check!

No one really knows until it goes bang, but my guess is it wouldn't be that long. Doubling the power on standard compression and pistons is a recipe for things going wrong IMO.

Still if it goes wrong you just fit another £400 engine, but for some people/customers that isn't an option.

could not agree more jon build it for a specific job not just generic parts thrown together

[Gunni]

Well the case is gents that the actual limit of the rods is higher, the pistons melt away at 600hp on the M50. So by staying 100hp away the engine will last. I don´t know what forums or people you guys know but what I see is M50´s and 500hp lasting just fine.

[Jonsku]

Its easy to start throwing out really large numbers, but its hard to relate that to car performance if this is your first turbo build.

Is this just me, or it happens to anyone else?

Yap, so it's better to start off with 300-400hp, because after couple of months you'll be wanting more. Then it's much easier to go from 400hp to 600hp than from 600hp to 800hp.

It will happen to everybody, there just isn't such thing as "enough power". It's weird but that's how things are.

[Jonsku]

But how long is it all going to last...realistically. Hopefully we won't need another reality check!

No one really knows until it goes bang, but my guess is it wouldn't be that long. Doubling the power on standard compression and pistons is a recipe for things going wrong IMO.

Still if it goes wrong you just fit another £400 engine, but for some people/customers that isn't an option.

There is one M50 turbo with stock ECU and internals (only modification was thicker HG and ARP bolts), 0,8bar boost made 350-380hp and the guy drove it 25 000 km before selling it. So when done - and most importantly mapped - properly, they will last.