325i turbo

[dirtydog100]

right, ive got a custom turbo manifold, a t34 turbo, large intercooler and a totally standard m20 2.5 low compression engine.

what is the most cost effective way to manage this? im not looking for extreme power gains, anywhere on the good side of 250 would be good.

money is an issue, ive been told you can buy custom chips for the timing and larger injectors for the fuel.

do you need different management to run low boost?

will an adjustable fpr help with the fueling?

im sure this has been covered a million times so i apologise for my lack computer skills.

any help would be greatly appreciated, maybe you can post a link to a project thread that has been done like this??? cheers

[murran]

you can run a v low boost with the motronic in place (.5 bar). its my plan for my 325i e30 engined e21 this year. yeah one of those fpr manifold pressure sensing is on my shopping list.

i think 250 is opitmistic without more boost and proper managment (mega squirt, coil packs etc.). 210/220 is more like it tbh.

[dirtydog100]

im not too fussed about using the standard management, i want a bit of reliability, 7psi is still a fair amount to blow into a standard lump.

ive heard with a chip and injectors 250+ being achievable with the correct turbo setup.
if thats so, that'l be sweet

[jmc330i]

iive heard with a chip and injectors 250+ being achievable with the correct turbo setup.
if thats so, that'l be sweet

If it was that easy to get a reliable 250bhp, everyone would be doing it.

I think murran is right in saying that if youre looking for 250bhp, you will need to run aftermarket engine management with the rest of the trimmings to suit.

A standard, late 325i engine (in good nick) will take upto about 7psi IIRC which may see 240bhp, but it will need decent management (Megasquirt/Emerald etc) to keep it reliable and make sure it doesnt melt itself.

[dirtydog100]

i thought the later engine was low compression? 8.8:1 if i remember correctly. in which case should be able to hold more than 7psi with the correct timing and fueling.
they are also meant to have forged pistons too so i have been told?

there seems to be alot of turbo 325's around, if im only going to get low 200 id rather stick with naturally aspirated lol. it'd be a waste of time and money to turbo it for that.

[jmc330i]

i thought the later engine was low compression? 8.8:1 if i remember correctly. in which case should be able to hold more than 7psi with the correct timing and fueling.

I think 8.8:1 is right for the late engine, but I think around 7psi is going to be a safe amount of boost for an untouched engine, but as you say, only if fueling etc is correct which is where the likes of MS etc do their job. Anymore boost and the standard head gasket is going to have problems.
240 odd bhp isnt going to disappoint, especially with the torque increase youre going to get.

they are also meant to have forged pistons too so i have been told?

Not sure on that one

if im only going to get low 200 id rather stick with naturally aspirated lol. it'd be a waste of time and money to turbo it for that.

Bhp isnt the be all and end all. Even with a low 200bhp turbo, the increase in torque over the standard 2.5 is whats going to count.

[Kos]

the fact its "low compression" engine does not mean its boost ready, it was not designed by BMW's to be turbo'd

any more than 5 to 7 psi will probably lead to problems, most m20's are 20 years old and tired. you'll blow the rings or the head gasket if you are not sensible.

there's a member here who has built couple of big power turbo cars, and used stock internals but been re built, used a well set up engine management system and got over 400bhp.

but gues what, its not cheap. wasnt expensive either. about the 4 grand mark iirc

[chinese]

I turbocharged 1 of my previous e30's a couple of year ago, and got 247 whp@ 8 psi.
This was on the stock motronic, with a m30 afm, 24 lb injectors, fmu and a schrick cam, rest of the engine was untouched except for being rebuilt.
It ran goud for a while, but I had issues with boostspikes and the engine going lean in those spikes.......eventually ended up with a hole in side of the block.

I wouldn't use a normal afpr but get a FMU, a fmu will raise fuel pressure as boost rises without it you will have a lot of trouble tuning the air fuel ratios @ idle and under boost

[foggy50361]

I'm currently running a boosted M20 10psi with approx 280 BHP and over 300 ft/lb with a piggy back BBR ECU and standard internals only real mechanical problem I have is destroying rockers, but it does run lean at cruise and full throttle with but not enough for pinking with 99 oct fuel

[dirtydog100]

what boost can an un modified 2.5 high compression engine take?

if i use larger injectors and fuel pump with a fpr and a chip designed to map the timing for a turbo, i should be able to run about 6-8 psi fairly safely?????

and if i had the lower comp bottom end with the same parts as above i could run 10-12psi????

[bpowell555]

I thought the M30 can run 280 with modified intakes - why both turboing the M20?

[dirtydog100]

ive tried finding a complete engine and loom down my way, its impossible!

[chinese]

8 psi on a standard engine, with bigger injectors will work fine, just be sure to use a fmu so that fuel presure rises as boost rises.

And you'll have to adjut the afm, so use a wideband oxygen sensor it'a need to be sure your engine isn't running lean and to tune it right.

fuel pump doesn't need to be changed, stock will handle just fine

[dirtydog100]

is that on the older higher comp engine? i dont have a lambda sensor or a cat. its 1986.
what does fmu stand for? adjustable fuel pressure reg? i had one that rises as the boost increased when i built my nova turbo.

how do you adjust the airflow meter? my car drinks fuel as it is so maybe it will be ok hahaha

[chinese]

What I said goes for both the lower and higher comp engines, you don't want to be running over 8 psi without being sure your tuning is correct(good fueling,timing etc).

An fmu is a fuel management unit, it raises fuel pressure in a linear way like 12:1 or 10:1
Begi has one that works great on the e30, Aeromotive also has some good stuff. I don't remember part # now.

You dont have an oxygen sensor now but you will NEED one and you SHOULD get one and it HAS to be a Wideband one without it you don'tknow if your running lean or rich and you can't do any tuning.
I'm using the AEM UEGO Wideband in my new turbo e30 now and I like it, Innovate sells the LC-1 which is also used a lot.

Afm adjusting: Warm up the car, on the AFM there's a hex(allen head?)screw, tight it in fully, then turn the toothed wheel until your idle afr's are @ 14.7, go for a drive and check what your cruising afr's are(you want it to be @ 13.8 ) if not stop and adjust toothed wheel and drive again, then slowly build boost and watch the afr's under boost you want it to be like 11.8-12.7 depending on how much boost you are running.

See why you need the wideband o2 sensor?

your car drinks a lot now? well be prepared as it will get a lot more thirsty

[dirtydog100]

ok, thats some good info.
how much did the o2 sensor cost you, and how do you go about wiring it up? obviously a hole in the exhaust for it to sit.
and those afm readings are from some kind of diagnostic equipment? or a rich lean meter in your car?

i think im getting the idea now.

what size turbo to use? t3 t4 t34? either?
i wonder if my afr is too rich at the moment thats why its a thirsty girl? i didnt know you can adjust it.
also, what is the little adjustment skrew i have on the side of my ecu?

thanks

[chinese]

I have the AEM UEGO wideband sensor, I got it from a seller on ebay, it costs $200 and is shipped for free, worldwide.
It has the gauge so you can see the readings, that's the thing I like about this one, the gauge is actually the controller unlike the Innovate LC-1 which has the sensor, controller and a gauge(only included in the full kit IIRC).

You get very clear instructions in the manual how to wire it, it has a analog output too so if you have the o2 sensor plug in the engine bay you can connect that wire to the signal wire of the plug and your ecu will pick up the signal.
If you don't have the plug at all you just use the sensor to get the readings so you can get it tuned correctly.

The readings I mentioned are just some numbers I came up with, every engine is different and your engine might run better with slightly different readings.
But around 14.7 is where you would want it to be when @idle, maybe a little leaner or richer, just see how your engine idles around that value.

When cruising you want some more fuel in there so around 13.8 (smaller value= richer)
When under boost you need the extra fuel to ignite all the extra air and to cool down your pistons, so normally between 11 and 12.7 should be fine.

Still when tuning always pay attention to detonation,knocking. check your plugs after a session of tuning to see if there getting soaked, or if you see signs of detonation(running lean).

Turbo size all depends on how you want the car to behave, do you want to have boost come up fast? downside when on the freeway the turbo would be likely spooling all the time.(smaller turbo)
Or wouldn't you mind some lag(bigger turbo) possibitlity to boost more in the future.
A smaller turbo sill spool fast but in higher rpms it would be more of a restriction in the exhaust than a bigger one.
Also with a smaller turbo when going full boost you'll have more backpressure which leads to higher exhaust temperatures, in my old car I was getting in the red zone of my EGT gauge after like 20 sec of full boost.(high egt's melt pistons!!)

On my current car I run a Garrett GT3076-WG A/R.70 cold, A/R .63 hotside, don't remember wheel sizes.
It spools reasonably fast, I run @ only 5 psi on a fully build engine, still tuning right now that's why.
This turbo is a little bit on the small side if you want alot of power(It's allright for 8-10 psi)
I'm thinking of upgrading to a gt35/40 or 42.

You can look at a Holset HX35, they are great for the m20, keep an eye on ebay and if you buy it used, get a rebuild kit for it while youre at it.

the adjustment screw on your ecu is to witch between ignition maps for different octane fuels, If I remember correctly it has 3 maps for 3 different octane fuels

[dirtydog100]

wow, thank you very much for that info, it doesnt seem to hard to do realy, im going to start looking into this properly now and gathering parts.

i see on ebay there are some turbo manifolds quite cheep but aparently you have to re-locate the oil filer housing when using one?
how do you know what map does what on the ecu then? is it worth me getting one of those turbo chips to retard the timing when boosting to help with detonation? a guy on ebay sells them for £80

ive also seen those turbo kits on ebay but ive been told they arent worth bothering with again.

sorry for all the questions but you seem like you know your stuff.
this way doesnt seem to expensive if you are careful with how you do it.
im after better acceleration not top end speed. 0-100 really, i want to liven up the rear end a little, plus the sound of the turbo!

do you have any links to websites or what ever for the lambda sensor set ups etc that you recomend?

[chinese]

No problem, it ain't hard to do just be prepared because sometimes there are some little things that will be troublesome.

Best thing to do is gather all the parts needed then start with the project, also do read a lot of info, doesn't matter if it isn't e30 related, every bit of info on how to tune a turbo engine or fuel injection systems will help.

About the switch on the ecu, I don't remember which position was for which fuel, I used to have it all documented but the old pc crashed, try to search it on the web, I'm sure there is some info about it. but if your car's running smooth don't bother with it.

Ebay manifold: I'm looking to buy one soon too, don't know if a filter relocation kit is needed.
I have an oilcooler on mine so my oil filter is facing towards the rear of the engine, can't see why it would interfere.
If you don't have the oil cooler I guess your filter is facing towards the side of the car??, then you will have to relocate I guess.

They say the manifolds crack.... just add some bracing to the top flange and cut the flange that mounts to the engine side in half, that way you will relieve it of tension reducing the chance it will crack.

Ebay turbo kits: come with a lot of stuff you won't be using, but I don't see why you shouldn't buy it(only that the turbo in most of those kits is on the small side).For my first turbo e30 I used one of those turbo's, spools fast, but chokes up top. never had any problems with the quality of it, just some boost creep, but that happens with most if not all internal wastegated turbo's.
My engine blew but the turbo still lives on in a '83 toyota starlet and it's now 3 years later.
I build one for a friend, using one of those complete kits, and there's so much stuff left over...but yeah it runs great @ 8 psi on a very high comp 2.7 engine btw

Thing is you will still have to buy bigger injectors, fmu, wideband o2, because those are not included in the kit

If you decide to buy a ebay turbo, then look for something like a gt30, it's a copy of the garrett one I'm using and spools great, acceleration is awesome.

Ebay turbo chips: I don't have any experience with those, so I can't say anything about it only thing I can say every engine is different so every setup needs different retard settings those chips are probably just a copy of one guy's setup. It may work for you, better get some info on that from someone who has experience with those.
Before I swapped to the stand alone I was running a turbo chip but my chip was made specificly for my engine.
The guy started with just a copy of someones chip and adjusted as needed.

http://myworld.ebay.nl/modernautomotiveperformance
That's where I got my AEM UEGO wideband, he ships fast and free I had to pay import taxes once it came to my door though(40 euro)

Don't worry about asking alot of questions, it's better to ask them now. being informed saves you money and time.
I try to help where I can, I don't know everything , I'm over on a other forum asking a lot of questions about this megasquirt stuff I got myself into.
I am more a JDM guy so know more about tuning rx7's, skylines and such but still I'm into my 6th e30

If you have more questions just ask m and don't forget to post up the pics if your'e starting the project

And yeah, sound of a turbocharged E30...........priceless

[dirtydog100]

cool, thank you very much!

i am seriously considering gathering the parts up soon! I doubt il use an ebay turbo to be honest, ive got a few turbo's spare so i may dig them out and see whats what.

its nice to know what to expect so i can budget for the worst, i dont know everything, infact my knowledge of e30's is very slim, so it useful hearing how other people have done things.

il keep you informed as to what i decide, im also researching the possibility of triple 40 carbs! but to be honest i think im favoring the idea of turbo'd.

cheers, again for your help.

[Shaheenk]

ok, if I can give my 2p here.
I run a 2.7liter lump in my car, have been running close to 0.6bar for many years now without issues, you need to have the AFM before the turbo so it spools up without trying to break the flapy thingy.

I have seen 250kw on the motor but then have shorter conrod to drop the compression and not seen the need to forged stuff. The head is stock and I use a stock ECU. what I would suggest is , add an additional injector , set it to triggr on a pressure switch to come in at about 0.3 bar, this is where you will need the additional fuel. You get units which control additional injectors as well, if you have something which can pulse based on pressure this will serve you well. Are you going with a FMC or not.

Fuel presure regulator is a must, start with 3 bar on idle , use a double diaphram unit as the rise rate is better.

I will post pics of my build this evening.

[dirtydog100]

ok cool, thanks. would be very interested.

[Gunni]

Can´t believe I missed this thread.

Stock M20´s go 250-270hp ish completely stock with 8.8:1 compression, expect 240hp on 9.7:1 compression engines.

Now with ARP headstuds you´r already looking at anything between 300-450hp.
Going past 500hp and I´d recomend pistons and rods.

Tuning wise.

OEM , AFM goes in front of the turbo, piggyback for extra injector control and ignition retard, or manipulate the original injectors + rising rate regulator. This is a rather crude way above 280hp.
Decent below.

Standalone , almost anything will work so shop around for what you need.
I like VEMS as it has come along way and get´s updated just about every month. And it´s still relatively cheap.

Turbo´s.
try not to run a turbo with a smaller then 45mm inducer. The hotside will be to small and kill the VE of the engine and that will be bad news for the engine and exhaust valves.

Most bmw engines can handle about doubling in power on stock internals apart from ///M engines.

[dirtydog100]

as ive said im only looking for small gains really so how do you suggest manipulating the injectors? im going to get a lambda set up as chinese suggested, and im going to try one of those turbo chips from a bloke on ebay! only £80 so could be worth a try. plus a rising rate pressure reg.

when you said above 240ish on a completely stock engine? do you mean literally bolt a turbo on and off i go lol, or do you mean stock internals etc, but with the bits listed above?

cheers

[Gunni]

80pounds is not needed for some random chip. Don´t throw away money.

240hp I´d reccon is totally doable on a completely stock engine with 9.7:1 compression ratio, although tuning needs to be very spot on.

Get a piggyback that also does your ignition timing, then you can skip the ebay chip and adjust the timing as needed based on manifold pressure.

I´d reccomend a SMT8 piggyback, that´ll do anything you need. Get a ignition amplifier for cheap and your in business. Timing, fuel + extra injector control and boost control if you get a boost control solenoid valve.

[dirtydog100]

i dont quite understand how a piggy back ecu works, lol im kind of grasping the idea.
anychance of an explanation? how hard /easy are they to connect? where does it connect? do i need a seperate lambda for the afr? or is it combined?
is it something i can tune myself on a laptop etc? is the soft ware included?

what is the ignition solenoid for?

sorry if the questions im asking are dumb, lol im trying to get my head around alot of new things. cheers

[dirtydog100]

would something like this work ok? i know its a poo ebay turbo but its in my price range ebay number: 400098948444

[dirtydog100]

or this one? ebay number:230400524383

[Gunni]

i dont quite understand how a piggy back ecu works, lol im kind of grasping the idea.
anychance of an explanation? how hard /easy are they to connect? where does it connect? do i need a seperate lambda for the afr? or is it combined?
is it something i can tune myself on a laptop etc? is the soft ware included?

what is the ignition solenoid for?

sorry if the questions im asking are dumb, lol im trying to get my head around alot of new things. cheers

Get firefox,

select the words you don´t know anything about, right click and hit
Search google for "....."

And then read on.
You´ll find the info very fast that way.

[driftmonkey]

I'm selling a eBay turbo kit and also have a megasquirt ms2 plug n play ecu and if they are sold together I will throw in a wideband controller with display. SHAMELESS PLUG

[pilt]

I have a late M20 2.5 low compression with 165000 miles on the clock. I use megasquirt engine managment and run 10psi on the engine with no problems (for 5000miles) with no internal mods (standard clutch too!). Although I am running about 10:1 at max rpm so as not to melt aything. I reckon im getting around 270 hp

Ebay manifold: I'm looking to buy one soon too, don't know if a filter relocation kit is needed.
I have an oilcooler on mine so my oil filter is facing towards the rear of the engine, can't see why it would interfere.
If you don't have the oil cooler I guess your filter is facing towards the side of the car??, then you will have to relocate I guess.

They say the manifolds crack.... just add some bracing to the top flange and cut the flange that mounts to the engine side in half, that way you will relieve it of tension reducing the chance it will crack.

I run this manifold for about a year now and 5000miles and have had no issues, the only thing I have done is add an external wastegate to the manifold which was a pain. I did cut the manifold in half as suggested, but the holes line up awfully to the bmw head so needs hours of filing and drilling to get it to fit!

You have to relocate the filter because the big u bend on the manifold, before it comes up to the turbo, goes where the oil filter is

Most people fit a oil relocation kit but me being a cheapskate I didnt. I turned it round 135 degrees to the right so its pointing diagoally upwards to the cam pulley. Then i fitted a VW Polo 1.3 G40 Oil Filter, which has the same thread as the BMW but is half the size length wise.
The disadvantage is that you need to change the filter more often as its smaller. But it works for me ok. I bent the oil cooler pipes to go to the new filter location

[dirtydog100]

are the piggy back ecu's easy to install.....ie wiring diagrams etc?
is one absolutly vital or can i run low boost 8psi ish but with a fpr or fmu???

do i also have to increase the size of the injectors or can the standard ones manage low boost???

im gathering a list of the essentials to get this project up and running:

Turbo with at least .63 hotside
fpr or fmu
decent size intercooler
manifold
pipes etc
wideband lambda sensor


Any thing im missing to get it running? i will probably upgrade to a managment system over time if it is ok not to use one.

cheers

[dirtydog100]

bump

[Gunni]

I have a late M20 2.5 low compression with 165000 miles on the clock. I use megasquirt engine managment and run 10psi on the engine with no problems (for 5000miles) with no internal mods (standard clutch too!). Although I am running about 10:1 at max rpm so as not to melt aything. I reckon im getting around 270 hp

Running 10:1 AFR is STUPID!!!!

There is no no no no gain going below 11.5 AFR.

[Gunni]

are the piggy back ecu's easy to install.....ie wiring diagrams etc?
is one absolutly vital or can i run low boost 8psi ish but with a fpr or fmu???

do i also have to increase the size of the injectors or can the standard ones manage low boost???

im gathering a list of the essentials to get this project up and running:

Turbo with at least .63 hotside
fpr or fmu
decent size intercooler
manifold
pipes etc
wideband lambda sensor


Any thing im missing to get it running? i will probably upgrade to a managment system over time if it is ok not to use one.

cheers

You should get
larger injectors even if you plan on running a piggyback.

Piggybacks are very easy to wire.

Don´t even attempt to run a turbo on your M20 AFM with stock fuel pressure and injectors.