S50 with apexi neo ?

[dicko]

I was just wondering have any of ye thought of using an apexi neo to do away with the maf and use a map sensor on a s50 , or even an m20 for that matter , although I reckon you would need to fit an extra throttle pot for the neo on a m20 as it only has a tps .
Its just a though as I would love to run my s50 alpha N , for the noise alone , an hopfully a few extra horse,s

[UweM3]

As far as I know the 3.0 liter S50 is running more or less Alpha-N anyway and companies like Evolve can remap it. The 3.2 is a different thing altogether.

I wouldn't run a ITB engine with a MAP sensor, heared all sort of problems with this setup on S14 engines. It can be done, but why?

[Jhonno]

I would keep the MAF if I were you!!

[dicko]

As far as I know the 3.0 liter S50 is running more or less Alpha-N anyway and companies like Evolve can remap it. The 3.2 is a different thing altogether.

I wouldn't run a ITB engine with a MAP sensor, heared all sort of problems with this setup on S14 engines. It can be done, but why?

The resons why are a bit silly really , 1 I heard a e46 csl running with a maf less set up and OHHH it was nice .2 for a couple of extra hp .
I am going to make up a new plenum box with a built in panel fitler like the e46 csl set up and am thinking of trying it with out the maf .

I amnot doubting your self and jhonno but what is the problem with itbs and map sensor ? as I havent done alot of research yet .

[Jhonno]

the maf is an excellent bit of kit and far more accurate for better running and mpg, and even power if mapped right.. Tbh, Alpha N is only any good on WOT.. If you are making a plenum, removed the guts of the maf and stick it in the opening to the plenum.. If you keep the I/D the same you won't need to do anything.. But if you make the I/D of the inlet larger you will need to get it mapped to compensate for the extra volume of air

[dicko]

the maf is an excellent bit of kit and far more accurate for better running and mpg, and even power if mapped right.. Tbh, Alpha N is only any good on WOT.. If you are making a plenum, removed the guts of the maf and stick it in the opening to the plenum.. If you keep the I/D the same you won't need to do anything.. But if you make the I/D of the inlet larger you will need to get it mapped to compensate for the extra volume of air

Now I like the sound of that , the only problem is I would have to put the filter ahead of the maf to stop the crap getting into it ?

[UweM3]

I ran my S14 on Alpha-n and itworks fine even for a street car. BUT it needs to be mapped at EVERY loadsite because there is no measuring or compensating (no MAF or MAP present) and as soon as running conditions change, your fuel map will be out.
Not a problem if you are handy with the laptop, Wideband Lambda controller and maybe some data recording but for the ease of use I am NOT going to run my S50 on Alpha-N.
I can't remember what S50 version you have (B30 or B32) but running with the MAF will be far more user friendly on a day to day basis and the B30 can be mapped with the MAF deleted
and will sound like CSL. Try EVOLVE (zone traider I think)
As far as I can remember the problem was with the MAP that an ITB engine is not creating enough stable vacuum and needs to have the signal taken from each throttle body and linked and and and and. There is a guy on S14.net who has managed to get it running but it was a lot of trial and error (and he only did it because of turbo application)

[Turbo-Brown]

My housemate's car runs ITBs and pure Alpha-N. Been like it for a couple of years and it runs great! Even returns almost 30mpg (it's a 1.9 16v engine).

It does have closed loop mapping now which probably helps, but for over a year it ran trouble free just open loop.

My old turbo setup (ITBs and turbos) ran Alpha-N up to atmospheric pressure, and then Alpha-N with pressure compensations above.

Drove beautifully, if I do say so myself

[dicko]

I have a b32 Uwe ( two actually one good top end one good bottom end )
I dont think I will be going alpha n with the s50 as I have no way of reprograming the ecu .

I can see the problem with a map sensor on itbs now , I would love to know how they got it to work on the e46 csl .

I might mount a map sensor on the balance tube between the itbs like it is on the csl and compare the signals from both map and maf .

Turbo brown you are a bad bad man mentioning turbos and s50 in the same thread , I will be off day dreaming of turbo s50,s again

[UweM3]

My housemate's car runs ITBs and pure Alpha-N. Been like it for a couple of years and it runs great! Even returns almost 30mpg (it's a 1.9 16v engine).

didn't say it doesn't. My car ran fine on Alpha-N for two years.
It's just when you hardware start getting weak (fuel pump for example) Alpha-N will not be able to compensate

It does have closed loop mapping now which probably helps, but for over a year it ran trouble free just open loop.

If your map is perfect it will run just fine open loop, closed loop.
But if conditions chane it runs different (i.e. hardware changes, badly clogged up airfilter, vacuum leak BEHIND airfilter)
A needed to run two different maps for the Ring and UK. Was always a little off at the ring.

My old turbo setup (ITBs and turbos) ran Alpha-N up to atmospheric pressure, and then Alpha-N with pressure compensations above.

Drove beautifully, if I do say so myself

you said it yourself, Alpha-N up to atmoshperic pressure.

He want's to run a NA, ITB engine on MAP sensor. It may not be as straight forward. But I do not have first hand experience with this, just followed a few discussions on s14.net and most of the guys had trouble to get a reliable vacuum/MAP signal.
I don't say it can't be done, I just don't see the need.

[GermanGorilla]

Hi,

I am confused.

No CSL has a MAF.

They run the MS S54 with some extra
software that works on a similar princpal
to Alpha N.

The E.Gas [fly by wire] is far more responsive
on the CSL than a standard E46 M3 as the
MS S54 ECU has less to do, as there is no MAF
compensation calculations through the throttle range.

Remove the plastic 'grids' in the S50 B32 MAF,
and drive the car around really bloody hard for
a week on Optimax and you will certainly notice
a difference in performance.

The key to the S50 B32 MAF is a good supply of
as much cool dense as possible.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[dicko]

Hi,

I am confused.

No CSL has a MAF.

They run the MS S54 with some extra
software that works on a similar princpal
to Alpha N.

The E.Gas [fly by wire] is far more responsive
on the CSL than a standard E46 M3 as the
MS S54 ECU has less to do, as there is no MAF
compensation calculations through the throttle range.

Remove the plastic 'grids' in the S50 B32 MAF,
and drive the car around really bloody hard for
a week on Optimax and you will certainly notice
a difference in performance.

The key to the S50 B32 MAF is a good supply of
as much cool dense as possible.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

What would you think of Jhonnos sugestion to take the sensor out of its orginal housing and fit it in a larger housing , then use a neo or similar to adjust the signal to bring it back to proper values.

[GermanGorilla]

Hi,

Dicko- it works to a point.

Those that run Carbon Airboxes on the
S50's and S54's that retain the MAF, usually
place the MAF sensor into the the start of
the Carbon Airbox Plenum.

These vary in 'mouth' size from approx 125 to 150mm.

So the idea of enlarging the diamiter around the
MAF sensor for greater air mass volume has already been
done using the standard ECU and retaining the MAF.

The cars that I have driven with this type set up performed
very well, and seemed to have a little more punch
in the Mid Range.

I have never personally run this arrangement,
Carbon Air box with MAF, other than on
the CSL which already has the software, and no MAF.

My S50 B32 E30 M3, I ran without the MAF Plastic
grids, and once the adaptive elements in the ECU had
compensated for their removal, the car was much
crisper to drive.

I was going to Dyno it, but its now on route to
its new owner.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[ShakeyC]

I think im getting confused on the terminology, i think of them as follows

MAF = mass air flap as per m20
MAS = mass air sensor as per m52, S50 S52 ect
AlphaN = TPS based
AlphaN Blended MAS = TPS with MAS on the same axis
AlphaN Blended MAP = TPS with MAP sensor typically factory turbo engines from 90's onwards

S50 and S52 are basically Alpha-N Blended with MAS air sensor corrections to interpolate between load sites.

The Apexi Neo is basically a piggyback module which can adapt or change either MAP or MAS signals not TPS therefore you would need to keep MAS air sensor for APexi Neo to work or do anything.

If you kept the MAS it can only adjust only the in between sites so what you would feel is the interpolations between load sites not actually correctly map the load sites themselves. For is intended jap applications MAP and MAS are the main load sites not TPS therefore can map each load site correctly, BMW is opposite way around not being a factory turbo engine the ecu is not calibrated in the same way as if it was a factory turbo application.

ps typically MAS sensor is the most accurate way of measuing volume, temp and density of air than any other method used in cars and not considered a restriction either compared. Basically what im saying Apexi Neo on a BMW is pointless really, your better off using something like unichip instead.

[ian332isport]

I think im getting confused on the terminology, i think of them as follows

MAF = mass air flap as per m20
MAS = mass air sensor as per m52, S50 S52 ect

Old M20 systems are referred to as an AFM (Air Flow Meter). Later systems (M50 etc) use a MAF (Mass Air Flow).

An AFM only measures air flow, and cannot account for air density like the MAF.

MAF is better in all respects.

Ian.

[ShakeyC]

Thought so BMW confusing the technically correct abbrievations to make it sound better than it actually is