Wheel size Vs Tramlining

[Jay07]

Hi all!
What is tramlining?? Over the last month i have been reading all your comments on what size wheel is best? I drive an 87' 3.20i and i was thinking of buying 18/17" alpina's - When mentioning drive quality some people mentioned tramlining (as a bad thing) but what is that exactly?
There doesn't appear to be a clear cut answer to what size wheel vs tire is best but any help/experiences would be appreciated!!

many thanks.
Jason

[Brianmoooore]

Anything over 15" will have a detremental effect on an E30. In fact the ride quality difference between 14" and 15" over bad roads is quite noticeable.
Tramlining is where the front wheels follow longitudal grooves and ridges on the road surface, including white lines, to the extent that you have to correct the cars course with the steering wheel.

[Jay07]

Wow! Cheers for the quick response Brian - If 15+ are really that bad it seems crazy to me that everyones getting 17/18 -no-ones saying 'you know what the rides really sh*t'!! As far as tramlining goes, let me get this straight the wheels kinda lock off together in a fixed direction?

[Zayyan]

Most people get 17s/18s for the looks alone.

I'm not sure 'anything over 15"' is bad on an E30. There's little difference between 15s and 16s in my experience, and as Hartge/Alpina made 16" wheels for the E30 that's got to be a sign

However listen to Brian, it's very likely that he knows more than I on the subject.

[Brianmoooore]

lock off together in a fixed direction?

I hope both your front wheels point together in the same direction all the time!
Tramlining is when the car follows marks in the road, just like the wheels had dropped into tram lines, and you have to turn the steering a little to keep the car straight, on a straight road.
17"/18" wheels on an E30 is a fine example of form over function.
Personally, I think a big gap between the well of a wheel and the brake calliper looks as bad as a brake drum (usally painted red) visible through a wheel.
Big wheels are for big brakes!

[Jay07]

Both wheels same direction! - Damn! shoulda spotted that one coming!!
Seriously though, Thanks for the info Brian... i suddenly have new found love for my standard wheels...That all sounds pretty tragic and I hear what you saying about the drums too... still i do like the look - shame about the rest. besides i have a bigger problem. I have a four door and the big question is....... Is it ever worth it with a saloon? Can it look the business or will it always just look long?...
Zayyan thanks for the info - that makes sense! -

It's a tough 1 - i love driving my car even with the problems an 87' comes with but a crap ride in exchange for the look ...... hmmmm not sure if its worth it?

[Zayyan]

4-door saloons are the same length as 2-door saloons (hence the name of the 2-door I suppose?).

IMO they look equally as good, though I think with an M Tech bodykit the 4-door actually looks better.

Dropped a reasonable (60mm front 40mm rear at the most) amount with a decent suspension kit will greatly improve the handling and the looks, even on the standard wheels. This might be the way to go for you

[Jay07]

Same length - no way! Thats it im gona get the measuring tape out tomorrow and check once and for all! - As far as the wheels go i've photoshop'd my ride and it looks great. As you mentioned - I catered for a 40 mill drop all round, sitting on 18" alpinas. Its latch grey and in excellent condition. Ive added smiley's, wipers, fogs, white indicators, m-tec steering wheel etc - i was lucky the old owner that interior re-apolsterd - I've never owned a e30 before, but its such a great car. I cant believe how many people are interested in it as i drive around! - hey like it says on the badge! e30 rookie and proud!

[Zayyan]

Show us the Photoshop then....and some pics of the car as it is too

[hoshy]

for a long time I was convinced that my 5dr Corsa was longer wheelbase than the 3dr. Turns out I was wrong...

happens a bit to often

[Brianmoooore]

Same length - no way! !

2 door, 4 door and touring have exactly the same dimensions (except for the obvious bit).

[Jhonno]

Its latch grey and in excellent condition.

Lachs Silver i think you mean

All e30's (except m3) have the same dimensions ie length, width, wheelbase

[Jay07]

Nice one ladz!!! I'm feeling the e30zone now - so in recap - lesson 1. 2 door and 4 door are the same length. lesson 2. Latch silver and not grey as previously told.and lesson 3. 17/18 alpinas will f-up the ride quality but will look great!! - Ok now i've gota get this pic up of my car hmm....the quickest way is....

[Zayyan]

Nice one ladz!!! I'm feeling the e30zone now - so in recap - lesson 1. 2 door and 4 door are the same length. lesson 2. Latch silver and not grey as previously told.and lesson 3. 17/18 alpinas will f-up the ride quality but will look great!! - Ok now i've gota get this pic up of my car hmm....the quickest way is....

Almost...

Lesson 1:
2 doors, 4 doors, tourings and convertibles are all the same length.

Lesson 2:
Lachs silver, not latch silver or latch grey

Lesson 3:
You've got it



P.S: To get pics up, use www.imageshack.us

Upload the pic, copy the "Direct link to image" and use this in your post.

[Jay07]

Zayyan - lol - thankyou very much sir!! will get on that asap!!

[orangecurry]

Most people get 17s/18s for the looks alone.

I'm not sure 'anything over 15"' is bad on an E30. There's little difference between 15s and 16s in my experience, and as Hartge/Alpina made 16" wheels for the E30 that's got to be a sign

However listen to Brian, it's very likely that he knows more than I on the subject.

I'm miffed that you haven't noticed that I constantly go on about how handling can be destroyed by too low a profile tyre and a too-low suspension set-up..

remember M-tec only lowers by 15mm, and Hartge by about 25mm (iirc), and these companies spent a great deal of time and money getting the best set-up for real-road driving (not circuit driving which is utterly different)

I agree with Zayyan about 16s - I noticed a huge difference going from 195/65/14 to 205/55/15, and not just grip/handling (because that might have been down to the tyre quality) but a huge increase in ride quality (control over bumps, uneven road surfaces, crests and dips in the road), but there is almost no difference in going to 205/50/16 (on my Hartges) from the 15s

[Geeman]

I get tramlining on the A46 (between Grimsby and Caistor) and on the M180 between Scunthorpe and Doncaster...

Trouble is, my car is much wider than an E30 and it can't decide which truck wear line to follow... left or right. It's just not wide enough to fit into both tracks... but is too wide to fit into one or the other! Grrrr!

Not the same problem as fitting larger diameter wheels, but still annoying!

[Jay07]

Thanks for the extra info Orange!

You guys have really messed with my head on this project!... In a good way i guess as realistic expectations are always best. I understand the benefits of moving upto 16" (well described mate) - What exactly happens to the ride when you hit 17"/18" - Once and for all i'm trying to end the debate by having the facts... the pic below is where i was originally headed!.. but now i'm not so sure. The image is based on 17"/18"

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/8739/e30320i0pb.gif

[orangecurry]

ok as long as you understand there is nothing wrong with 17" wheels as such, but what causes the problem is having a very short tyre-wall (i.e. the 2nd figure in 205/45/17 or even 215/40/17) which is 45% of 205mm or 40% of 215mm...

once you get to 17, in order to keep the rolling diameter the same (610 mm or thereabouts) you have to fit very low profile/short tyrewall tyres

short tyrewalls equals 'improved steering response', which really means the tyrewall has very little 'give' in it; tyres act as part of the suspension of a car, and so big balloon profiles give a comfier ride (in any given set of circumstances)

all sounds good so far eh?

well no, not on a road, not on a RWD car designed in the 1970s with trailing arm rear suspension....

what happens is as the tyre has very little 'flex', when you come to the limit of adhesion (grip), as there is little flex it lets go very fast, and ALSO as there is little flex it loses contact with the road SOONER when going over small bumps.

Roads are actually (in the UK) very poor surfaces, and with a fundamentally flawed suspension set-up like the E30, you don't want to be heading off into the scenery every wet day simply because your tyres give you little or no warning when they are about to let go, and they will let go sooner

in my opinion, 45 profile tyres are a Bridge Too Far on an E30

(big intake of breath)

and besides that 205/45/17 tyres cost a lot more than 205/55/15s.

[Jay07]

Orange - A+ in that break down - why can't it be easy!! Seriously thanks for that! - i guess from here the question is - what are the largest size tyres on 17" - that'll fit under standard arches without rubbing?

If i didnt like a bit of speed now and again i wouldn't mind so much about losing grip at speed but that didn't sound good. So how are all these speed freaks doing it - is it purely about asthetics at the end of the day? so you sacrifice on ride?

Oh before i forget - Geeman - thanks for the imput mate? Tramlining sounds like a pain in the arse - best avoided! I need to get in a car that does it and learn for myself what it feels like!

[orangecurry]

Seriously thanks for that! - i guess from here the question is - what are the largest size tyres on 17" - that'll fit under standard arches without rubbing?

ahh now you can't do that - technically it's an MOT failure, your speedo will read wrong, and it actually looks stupid, like you are doing the Paris-Dakar rally or something

your words are telling me that you are going to get 17s anyway!

Of course 17s are drivable; never said they weren't - but by fitting them you'll be losing half of the special appeal of E30 ownership - handling... and with 15s you can go to the limit of grip, over that limit, and then bring it back under control and have totally armfuls of fun, with a big fat grin every time you do it

not that I condone dangerous driving on the public highway in any way shape or form

15" BBS (and spend more money on quality tyres) - there IS no substitute

ps I also DON'T condone the use of GOLD paint on any wheel - I include this to give an exact comparision of 205/55/15 vs 205/45/17

[Globulator]

The tyre design also has a bearing on tram-lining. You need to look at the radius of the edge of the tyre where it blends from sidewall into tread.

Generally with bigger wheels you have lower profiles -> smaller radii.

Different tyre makes however are different, and tyre size also affects that radii - squashing an over-wide tyre also makes the radii smaller.

As you can imagine, a bigger radius and proper inflation allows you to roll up the sides of the tracks/lines much easier. One of my cars has 245/45 16" on the back with Toyo T1Rs - I've never noticed it tramline, but there again they are the correct size tyre for the wheel too.

[Jay07]

Hey Orange!
It makes a massive difference when someone take the time you have to answer my questions - cheers for that mate! What can i say - your now treading into the dangerous world of alpinas or bbs? - Im sure ive seen that poll before!! I hear what your saying and firstly i must agree - No to the Gold!!! - Thanks for the Picture, great illustartion of tyre size. Have you ever thought of being a teacher?

So let me get this straight - I do like the bbs dont get me wrong they are fine rims but admittingly i prefer the modern look of the alps. (i know i know the bbs' are timeless)

Pushing 15" sounds great especially with the fun stuff (but i need more lessons there! Im still new to the e30 seen) - I feel we have confirmed that; along with some of the info from earlier, that 15's with give improvement all round. And still looks good.

However, personal taste still pulls me to larger rims.(as you spotted) From what you said that means i would have to put 45ish tyres on them to stay legal, true? But i will get all the problems listed earlier.

Knowing me adding wheels that give poor ride quality will bug me. My car might be old but i love the drive. (bar some heavy gear shifts) So it will purely come down to superficial?!!! Oh dear!!

hmmmm.

Side Note: I posted a question on water in my well - please have a peak if you get the chance.

[Jay07]

Globulator - thanks for the extra info mate - the plot thickens! so your riding 16"'s ? with those tyres right? _ A this stage the fact that your having no probs make sense - especially after all the above comments from people like orange. I'm expecting issues now with people riding
17" + .... 16's should feel good.

Oh Orange - great avatar mate suits you, just noticed it!

[orangecurry]

speaking of Avtars I think yours might be a tad on the large side

(yes my Avtar does suit me doesn't it?)

People have taken the time to explain things to me - I'm just doing the same on my fave subject - Zone Heroes (like BrianMooooore) give advice all the time on all topics.

If money is not an issue, as I (and Zayyan) have said above, 16" are as good as 15s, but just the tinyest bit tighter/less forgiving... get yourself a set of 16" Hartge (or Alpinas if you must - but they are MUCH harder to keep clean over Hartges) and fit Goodyear F1 GS-D3 which come in 205/50/16, and you will have the best of all worlds - grip. looks, handling...

AND they'll ALWAYS be worth large wad in resale value. Here is my car on 16" Hartge and an approximate Hartge suspension 'drop'

[Jay07]

Avatar - point taken Got a bit excited!

Hows that!

Am i commiting an e30 sin by prefering the shape of alpina to the Hartges! I think they look the business on the right project as you've shown. Just a personal thing i guess. Unfortunatly cash is an issue!! - i know for the forums that people love Hartges' and they are in demand. It looks like i'm headed for 16's with a nice drop. I cant stand uneven space under the arch.

I hear what your saying about passing on the info - Brains helped me out too. Aren't those guys pushing big rims? (by the looks of their avatars)

I expect cleaning alpina's to be a bit*h as i current have the original sports alloys and the multi spokes on them are a real pain. i've had to put my own 'secret' tools together to get the job done. Once i get them i'm hoping the joy will surpass any pains. Im just prang of thieves, had my old escort stolen from outside my house (that had lovely rims) Don't wana go through that again!

Hmm...

[Zayyan]

Most people get 17s/18s for the looks alone.

I'm not sure 'anything over 15"' is bad on an E30. There's little difference between 15s and 16s in my experience, and as Hartge/Alpina made 16" wheels for the E30 that's got to be a sign

However listen to Brian, it's very likely that he knows more than I on the subject.

I'm miffed that you haven't noticed that I constantly go on about how handling can be destroyed by too low a profile tyre and a too-low suspension set-up..

remember M-tec only lowers by 15mm, and Hartge by about 25mm (iirc), and these companies spent a great deal of time and money getting the best set-up for real-road driving (not circuit driving which is utterly different)

Where did I recommend a low suspension set up or low profile tyres?

Re the drop on the M-Tech/Hartge suspension, these (I would guess) are designed as a compromise between comfort, ride height (to avoid scrapage) and handling.

You can't compare kits like the H&R Cup with a 60/40 drop to any of the above, as this, from what I've heard, puts handling first, comfort second and "sensible" ride height third, rather than the two setups you mentioned which offer a compromise between the 3.

Another problem with 17s which hasn't been touched upon is that in general they're damn heavy

There are a couple of people I've spoken to just recently who have gone from 17s to 15s and say that they would never go back.

If you want to drive your car, 15" BBS are your best bet. If you want to purely use it for posing, go for 17" or 18" Alpina replicas

If you want a compromise choose a nice light 16" wheel, and enjoy

[orangecurry]

no no no I meant that Jay07 hadn't found any of the threads where I go on about susp/profiles, not that I was miffed with YOU!

sorry it was confusing wasn't it? oops

all susp set-ups are a compromise; M-Tec 15mm were BMW wanting to keep everybody happy, but I reckon Birds/Hartge went for handling first = 25mm drop with a nose-down attitude; go-faster drivers were/are their target market after all... I still think anything over that is 'looks' first; c'mon with trailing arms the lower you go the less the suspension can cope, being forced into negative (or is it positive) camber.

One of my ex-girlfriends had a Triumph Spitfire once, with a leaf-spring across the rear axle y'know? - again large camber which means excellent cornering on the loaded wheel, right up until the tyre tips onto it's edge SUDDENLY, then it's 'hello scenery'

but anway we agree

light strong 16" wheel is the best