M40b16 Poor Start + Down on Power

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iDemonix
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Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:22 pm

Hi all,

Been driving the touring from my rescue thread (viewtopic.php?f=112&t=268862) for half a year or so now, with no major running issues.

A month ago, it struggled to start one morning. It might have been sat a week or so, I can't remember as I use my vehicles sporadically, and ever since then it's had the same issue. It used to start in a second, now it takes 5-10s of cranking, then it kind of grumbles around 400-500rpm for a bit, before spluttering in to life - it also seems to pick a new idle speed with each start.

Image

I don't have a smoke testing machine (as they're £150 and I only need it once), so with a personal vape, some rubber tubing, a rubber glove, and some cable ties, I blew as much vape in to the boot as my lungs would allow, and I found some small leaks around the idle valve, and from a crease in the boot, a hose also had a slightly split end.

I have replaced part 3 (the boot) and part 10 (hose with adapters, that connects to ICV). I also removed part 5 (idle valve) and re-seated it with its rubber grommet (part 6) as it seemed a little unseated. I've been round and checked all hose clamps, everything is tight, and my DIY smoke test no longer shows me vape seeping around the engine bay.

A couple of others bits to consider... when I got this car it wouldn't run. I ended up fitting new spark plugs, removing the injectors + fuel rail, and then I hooked them up one-by-one on my bench to a motorcycle battery, and I blasted some pressurised carb cleaner through them. Once back in place the car fired up and it's ran fine since, but wondering if they've become blocked again. I've dumped 25L of petrol + a carton of injector cleaner through, and spent about 20 mins thrashing it, but no improvement on that front. A second thing to consider is I replaced the fuel pump a while back as the old one was whiny:

Image

Unfortunately I can't remember where I got this pump from, so it could be an eBay cheap Chinese jobby, and maybe that's causing my issues (as I noticed it seems louder than it was when I first fitted it, but that might be a placebo effect) - I'm thinking it shouldn't be the fuel pump though, as it'll sit at high revs without much bother - it's lower in the RPM range I have my issues.

Here's a couple of vids, first one shows what it's like starting it up:



The second gives you an idea of what it's like to drive it in the lower rev range, if you go from no throttle to full throttle, the car kind of 'bounces' and jerks forward until it becomes smoother higher up the RPMs...



Tried a few things now, was hoping it'd be a vacuum leak but no dice yet, possible issues with ICV/MAF?

Any help appreciated as always.
onthames
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Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:24 pm

Take a look at the AFM and see if the flap is moving smoothly/not gunked up
Could also just unplug it and try starting the car.

Air filter + fuel filter replace maybe?
Check fuel pressure at the rail if you can
Fuel pump looks like cheap chinesium one. You could swap the actual pump out (not the assembly) for a bosche one.
I replaced mine with this one: https://www.autodoc.co.uk/bosch/1156364
probably not this though as you said fine at higher rpm

As you said could be fouled plugs or distributor
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iDemonix
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Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:43 pm

onthames wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:24 pm
Take a look at the AFM and see if the flap is moving smoothly/not gunked up
Could also just unplug it and try starting the car.

Air filter + fuel filter replace maybe?
Check fuel pressure at the rail if you can
Fuel pump looks like cheap chinesium one. You could swap the actual pump out (not the assembly) for a bosche one.
I replaced mine with this one: https://www.autodoc.co.uk/bosch/1156364
probably not this though as you said fine at higher rpm

As you said could be fouled plugs or distributor
I did try unplugging the AFM, at the connector which is next to part #2 in the diagram I posted. The car started but ran like an absolute bag of spanners at a few hundred rpm, you could rev it a bit, but it really struggled to be an engine.

Filters aren't that old and realistically have done less than 1000 miles, but I might replace the fuel filter just in case some crap has gone through it from the tank being sat for years.

Is there an easy way to check fuel pressure? It's something I wanted to do from reading other posts, but not sure of the procedure. I did think about clamping off a return line to see if a faulty FPR could cause my issue, but I'm not sure of the process to do this safely, any advice on that appreciated.

Fuel filter will get replaced, fuel pump I'll hold on briefly as I don't want to replace something I only recently replaced if I don't need to (and I'd expect problems all throughout the rev range if it was the pump, I think).

Cheers!
Last edited by iDemonix on Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
onthames
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Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:50 pm

iDemonix wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:43 pm
onthames wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:24 pm
Take a look at the AFM and see if the flap is moving smoothly/not gunked up
Could also just unplug it and try starting the car.

Air filter + fuel filter replace maybe?
Check fuel pressure at the rail if you can
Fuel pump looks like cheap chinesium one. You could swap the actual pump out (not the assembly) for a bosche one.
I replaced mine with this one: https://www.autodoc.co.uk/bosch/1156364
probably not this though as you said fine at higher rpm

As you said could be fouled plugs or distributor
I did try unplugging the AFM, at the connector which is next to part #2 in the diagram I posted. The car started but ran like an absolute bag of spanners at a few hundred rpm, you could rev it a bit, but it really struggled to be an engine.

Filters aren't that old and realistically have done less than 1000 miles, but I might replace the fuel filter just in case some crap has gone through it from the tank being sat for years.

Is there an easy way to check fuel pressure? It's something I wanted to do from reading other posts, but not sure of the procedure. I did read somewhere about someone clamping off the return line briefly, then starting it up to see if it was improved, not sure if that's a good idea or not.

Fuel filter will get replaced, fuel pump I'll hold on briefly as I don't want to replace something I only recently replaced if I don't need to (and I'd expect problems all throughout the rev range if it was the pump, I think).

Cheers!
I'm not sure but I assume you just tee into the supply hose near the rail. You'd take the supply hose off, add a T junction on the end, and some spare hose coming off to the gauge and some spare hose coming going to the rail.
iirc you can buy universal pressure kits that have the t junction spare hose and fittings all included, for pretty cheap too, think around 20-30 quid on ebay.
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iDemonix
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Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:21 am

I'm not sure but I assume you just tee into the supply hose near the rail. You'd take the supply hose off, add a T junction on the end, and some spare hose coming off to the gauge and some spare hose coming going to the rail.
iirc you can buy universal pressure kits that have the t junction spare hose and fittings all included, for pretty cheap too, think around 20-30 quid on ebay.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113895639898

This one looks like it'd fit the bill and be a useful tool to have. Cheap and cheerful so I'm sure accuracy won't exactly be perfect, but should give me a rough idea, will get one ordered as it'll give me peace of mind about that.

Anyone have an idea of what PSI to expect? Also is it a case of running the engine with it attached, or just bridging the relay pins to run the pump?
onthames
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Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:44 am

iDemonix wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:21 am
I'm not sure but I assume you just tee into the supply hose near the rail. You'd take the supply hose off, add a T junction on the end, and some spare hose coming off to the gauge and some spare hose coming going to the rail.
iirc you can buy universal pressure kits that have the t junction spare hose and fittings all included, for pretty cheap too, think around 20-30 quid on ebay.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113895639898

This one looks like it'd fit the bill and be a useful tool to have. Cheap and cheerful so I'm sure accuracy won't exactly be perfect, but should give me a rough idea, will get one ordered as it'll give me peace of mind about that.

Anyone have an idea of what PSI to expect? Also is it a case of running the engine with it attached, or just bridging the relay pins to run the pump?
Check bently manual for pressures. iirc it should be 43-45 psi? Depends on what motronic version I think.
I don't think you start it, just turn on the ignition so the fuel pump primes everything.
But you can start it and see if the fuel pressure is the same throughout the rev range. I think it should be the same.
Hopefully someone else can chime in because I dont know too much! Only been working on my e30 a few months and its my first car!
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iDemonix
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Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:49 am

Done some reading of other posts and it should apparently be around 40 psi and blip up to 45 psi with revs, or around that, and should be ok to do with the engine running.

I'll get one of those kits ordered. Not sure if clamping a return line should help me spot the issue or not...

Ha, cheers for the help onthames, I've been working on my motorbikes for 10y, but they're all carb based! I'm fine around the E30 brakes, suspension, and most the engine, but the injection system still baffles me a bit from time to time.
onthames
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Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:54 am

iDemonix wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:49 am
Done some reading of other posts and it should apparently be around 40 psi and blip up to 45 psi with revs, or around that, and should be ok to do with the engine running.

I'll get one of those kits ordered. Not sure if clamping a return line should help me spot the issue or not...

Ha, cheers for the help onthames, I've been working on my motorbikes for 10y, but they're all carb based! I'm fine around the E30 brakes, suspension, and most the engine, but the injection system still baffles me a bit from time to time.
Well you use the clamping to certain isolate parts I think and then stop the pump running and see if the pressure drops, that way you could determine where a leak is (if there is one). But to start with I'd see what pressure you're getting with the fuel primed and also idling and holding it at high revs (where you say that it runs better).

You might want to pick up some jubilee clips aswell just incase that ebay kit doesn't fit too snug. Best of luck!
onthames
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Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:58 am

If pressures are all fine, and as you said no obvious vac leaks, then I think your next step would be to check the ignition coil, distributor cap and plugs
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iDemonix
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Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:23 pm

Gauge arrived, PSI seems a bit lower than I've read elsewhere, also I was expecting an increase in PSI with revs.

Anyone more knowledgeable check it out and let me know how it looks? Ignore my squealing belts/alternator...

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iDemonix
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Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:25 pm

Here's a video (better view of the gauge) with a relay bridge:



My immediate thought is that I wasn't expecting the PSI to drop back to zero so quickly when the bridge was removed, or when the engine was stopped. Can't source any fuel leaks, but admittedly not been round the full system yet.
onthames
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Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:36 pm

This is where my limited knowledge runs out so I've asked a few mates who know their stuff to take a look
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iDemonix
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Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:22 pm

Cheers!

Last video now. I thought when I squeezed (what I think is) the return line, the PSI would shoot up, but it didn't. I also unplugged the FPR vacuum, no difference, and no difference when squeezing it shut etc, PSI never really moves apart from a slight drop when high revving.

It does take a good 5-6s of cranking for PSI to start to appear on the gauge, and pressure disappears rapidly, wondering if a leak or failed valve/diaphragm somewhere is my likely issue? Or just a shit cheap pump.

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iDemonix
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Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:03 am

onthames wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:36 pm
This is where my limited knowledge runs out so I've asked a few mates who know their stuff to take a look
I'd be interested to know about pressure drop after stopping the pump/engine. It seems from reading it shouldn't just instantly disappear, so it could be a leaky injector (but that'd be a big leak), fuel leaking in through the FPR but I didn't see any of that, or a shit valve in the cheap pump.

Would that Bosch pump fit mine (pictured above)? If so I'll get one ordered and hopefully that's the issue, be nice if it's quieter too.

I'm thinking I can maybe confirm it by fitting the pressure gauge at the fuel pump/tank (under rear bench), bridging the relay to build up pressure, clamping the fuel line in the engine bay, then removing the bridge - if the pressure suddenly drops, it's the pump. Alternatively with the current setup (left the gauge in the engine bay), I could bridge the relay and clamp the fuel line, if I remove the relay and it drops then my leak must be on the other side (injectors or something). Does that sound logical?
onthames
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Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:46 am

iDemonix wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:03 am
onthames wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:36 pm
This is where my limited knowledge runs out so I've asked a few mates who know their stuff to take a look
I'd be interested to know about pressure drop after stopping the pump/engine. It seems from reading it shouldn't just instantly disappear, so it could be a leaky injector (but that'd be a big leak), fuel leaking in through the FPR but I didn't see any of that, or a shit valve in the cheap pump.

Would that Bosch pump fit mine (pictured above)? If so I'll get one ordered and hopefully that's the issue, be nice if it's quieter too.

I'm thinking I can maybe confirm it by fitting the pressure gauge at the fuel pump/tank (under rear bench), bridging the relay to build up pressure, clamping the fuel line in the engine bay, then removing the bridge - if the pressure suddenly drops, it's the pump. Alternatively with the current setup (left the gauge in the engine bay), I could bridge the relay and clamp the fuel line, if I remove the relay and it drops then my leak must be on the other side (injectors or something). Does that sound logical?
Yeah that pump should fit. If not, did you keep the old assembly cos it will 100% fit in there. My mate hasn't replied yet. I wish someone a bit more knowledgeable would join this thread! Plenty on here. Guess they're all on holiday!
I wouldn't buy one just yet if it were me. Try testing it first as you said. Think your method should work. You may also want to post this thread on pistonheads bmw section to get some prompt help.
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iDemonix
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Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:56 am

onthames wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:46 am

Yeah that pump should fit. If not, did you keep the old assembly cos it will 100% fit in there. My mate hasn't replied yet. I wish someone a bit more knowledgeable would join this thread! Plenty on here. Guess they're all on holiday!
I wouldn't buy one just yet if it were me. Try testing it first as you said. Think your method should work. You may also want to post this thread on pistonheads bmw section to get some prompt help.
Thanks for confirming, I'll report back with test data and go from there. Hopefully it's the pump unit as that's an easy fix. Unfortunately I binned the old unit as it was pretty knackered.
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Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:49 pm

It ain't half hot.

Did a quick test below, which shows that the fault is on the fuel pump side of the gauge. I'll test it from the pump itself tonight (lift the bench), it's 33c outside at the moment so it can wait until the evening! If it's the same from the pump, I'll replace it, only doing this test to ensure it's not a leak along the way from pump to engine bay.

onthames
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Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:11 pm

Hope its the pump! Quick and relatively cheap fix
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iDemonix
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Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:47 pm

Halfords decided to shut 2-3 hours early, so I couldn't get any extra fuel hose and had to make do with what I had, excuse the bulging not-intended-for-pressure-or-fuel hose.



Issue found. Bosch pump from AutoDoc ordered.
onthames
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Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:22 pm

Nice one
By the way, just a heads up cos this confused me with the pump: you need to swap the weird white thingy for the hose included with the pump cos the pump is slightly shorter than OEM.
12312312.png
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iDemonix
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Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:38 pm

onthames wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:22 pm
Nice one
By the way, just a heads up cos this confused me with the pump: you need to swap the weird white thingy for the hose included with the pump cos the pump is slightly shorter than OEM.
12312312.png
Nice one mate, really appreciate the help, love learning all this stuff - always handy for future, and some extra tools in the toolbox. Owe you a beer should our paths ever cross.

Hoping they dispatch + ship quick, and Brexit doesn't hamper my delivery, as I'm moving in two weeks! Would be a nightmare to try drive this the 100+ mile journey >.<
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Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:55 pm

Arrived a week after ordering, was worrying it wouldn't make it in time for the Saturday move, but just in time!

Bought some fuel line clamps to stop showering myself in fuel returning from the rail every time I'm testing, clamped the line and took the old one out. Forgot how fiddly it is trying to get the unit + filter through the hole.

Image

Was a bit more faff than I expected, as the metal 'triangle' bit on the bottom of the assembly wouldn't let the fuel pump go through it and clip on to the filter. 10 minutes with the power file and all was sorted.

Image



Voila. Took it for a 30 minute drive, back to how it was before (lots of noise, hardly any power, but no more bogging down :D)

Stuck the gauge in the engine bay, it's pushing up to the mid 40s of PSI easily now, and rapidly. Once you turn the engine off, it slowly looses pressure until about 20psi, then I got bored of waiting and took the gauge out. Buy cheap, buy twice.

Cheers for the help onthames
onthames
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Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:37 pm

iDemonix wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:55 pm
Arrived a week after ordering, was worrying it wouldn't make it in time for the Saturday move, but just in time!

Bought some fuel line clamps to stop showering myself in fuel returning from the rail every time I'm testing, clamped the line and took the old one out. Forgot how fiddly it is trying to get the unit + filter through the hole.

Image

Was a bit more faff than I expected, as the metal 'triangle' bit on the bottom of the assembly wouldn't let the fuel pump go through it and clip on to the filter. 10 minutes with the power file and all was sorted.

Image



Voila. Took it for a 30 minute drive, back to how it was before (lots of noise, hardly any power, but no more bogging down :D)

Stuck the gauge in the engine bay, it's pushing up to the mid 40s of PSI easily now, and rapidly. Once you turn the engine off, it slowly looses pressure until about 20psi, then I got bored of waiting and took the gauge out. Buy cheap, buy twice.

Cheers for the help onthames
Awesome! glad it arrived in time. Seems to be a good pump so far for me. Did you see any rust in your fuel tank when you were replacing?
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iDemonix
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Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:53 pm

onthames wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:37 pm
Awesome! glad it arrived in time. Seems to be a good pump so far for me. Did you see any rust in your fuel tank when you were replacing?
I had a glance inside and didn't see any, and the filter on the old unit was pretty free of debris, so no worries in that dept for now.

The Bosch unit is so much quieter, when I bridged the relay in the engine bay I couldn't hear anything and the gauge hadn't gone up yet, so I panicked and thought I'd somehow wired the terminals backwards - was only when I walked around the car I realised it was running. Much nicer inside the car now you can't hear the pump.

:banana:
onthames
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:23 pm

iDemonix wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:53 pm
onthames wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:37 pm
Awesome! glad it arrived in time. Seems to be a good pump so far for me. Did you see any rust in your fuel tank when you were replacing?
I had a glance inside and didn't see any, and the filter on the old unit was pretty free of debris, so no worries in that dept for now.

The Bosch unit is so much quieter, when I bridged the relay in the engine bay I couldn't hear anything and the gauge hadn't gone up yet, so I panicked and thought I'd somehow wired the terminals backwards - was only when I walked around the car I realised it was running. Much nicer inside the car now you can't hear the pump.

:banana:
One of the reviews on autodoc is (originally in spanish): "Bosch is Bosch, there is nothing more to talk about"
Sums it up nicely
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